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Review Computer Games disappointed with Oblivion

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Claw said:
Yet many people complain it was too hard. I would like to see someone who had trouble with a lvl10+ character try again with a character going straight for this gate, just to see how the claims that the different experiences are a result of varying player skill hold up.

It's too hard at higher levels because the guards don't scale with the Daedra. It's that simple. I cleared Kvatch at around lvl 10, and it was ridiculously hard; all of my allies (both Kvatch Guards and Imperial Legionnaires) died in about 10 seconds flat, except for the guard captain who "fell unconcious" every five seconds or so, leaving me to play stupid hit-and-run games with Daedra who were at or above my level.

As for personal skill, I'm a pretty competitive high-level FPS player, so playing a Marksman-heavy character is pretty intuitive. My bow skills are probably far above those of the average player, just because I've been pathetic enough to play a lot more competitive multiplayer videogames on teh internets. :cry:

Anyway, good review. I can see Dhruin's comments that the quests might have deserved more comment, but in 40 hours of play I've run across as many ho-hum quests as I have great quests, and none of them has exhibited the kind of branching depth found in some other "RPGs". Even the best of Oblivion's quests are more like good adventure game quests than good RPG quests. And I thought your other points were spot-on.
 

Whipporowill

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2003
Messages
2,961
Location
59°19'03"N 018°02'15"E
suibhne said:
It's too hard at higher levels because the guards don't scale with the Daedra. It's that simple. I cleared Kvatch at lvl 8 or 9, and it was ridiculously hard; all of my allies (both Kvatch Guards and Imperial Legionnaires) died in about 10 seconds flat, leaving me to play stupid hit-and-run games with Daedra who were at or above my level.

Well, imagine how much fun I have in Kvatch at lvl 22. It's insane. Guards just aggro more mobs, it's like a bad day in mmorpg-land.
 

Micmu

Magister
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
6,163
Location
ALIEN BASE-3
I actually let them kill themselves, retreated into safety and then picked daedra one by one.
AI was non-existant, they all just swarmed the closest enemy (archers shooting melee soldiers in the back) and the real challenge was not to hit one of your own.
I was getting those 40 gp bounties as if I stole something (guards then actually called me a thief when confronted). I never knew why, then I realized it was because I was hitting imperial soldiers during fights (many times, these soldiers on horses come to your aid and they are freaking nuisance).
 

Bossman

Educated
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
53
suibhne said:
I'm just floored that this stuff wasn't caught in testing.

Like someone said on the TES forums, this is not a "glitch", it's how the game was designed from the start.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
Behind you.
BossmanCG said:
Sounds kinda like communism, doesn't it? :D

Hah! I actually made a comment about the levelling system being the way it is because Bethesda are a bunch of Maryland communists a while ago. It's fairly on par with the way they think about a lot of things, lowering standards and such to force an equality of outcome rather than the world offering the player a chance to eventually mold himself in to a position where he can meet a challenge.

A little level shifting is okay, but changing everything in the game according to the player level really offers little challenge through the whole thing while also causing massive inconsistancies to the game world about what the player isn't ready to do. Like someone said, it makes you wonder how special you are with nothing much is a challenge and any Tom, Dick, or Harry could have done it.
 

xemous

Arcane
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
1,107
Location
AU
remember seeing a poll on the TES forums where players were asked whether or not they would have bought the game had they known about the infamous level scaling system (remember, it's not mentioned in the manual or in any preview materials)... 34% said no. Sad Sad

Maybe they should've waited for feedback
 
Last edited:

fizzelopeguss

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
808
Location
Equality Street.
exciting thought, at this rate all the raiders and slavers in fallout 3 will be decked out in power armour and wielding plasma rifles. :lol:


*goes and sobs in his pillow*
 

Micmu

Magister
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
6,163
Location
ALIEN BASE-3
fizzelopeguss said:
exciting thought, at this rate all the raiders and slavers in fallout 3 will be decked out in power armour and wielding plasma rifles. :lol:
You mean hardened advanced power armours and Y2K pulse rifle prototypes? :)
 

whitemithrandir

Erudite
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,115
I need to FRAP a frag vid of me circle strafing enemies and nailing midairs with fireball, all to the soothing background tunes of the Mortal Kombat theme.
 

El Dee

Scholar
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
461
suibhne said:
Claw said:
Yet many people complain it was too hard. I would like to see someone who had trouble with a lvl10+ character try again with a character going straight for this gate, just to see how the claims that the different experiences are a result of varying player skill hold up.

It's too hard at higher levels because the guards don't scale with the Daedra. It's that simple. I cleared Kvatch at around lvl 10, and it was ridiculously hard; all of my allies (both Kvatch Guards and Imperial Legionnaires) died in about 10 seconds flat, except for the guard captain who "fell unconcious" every five seconds or so, leaving me to play stupid hit-and-run games with Daedra who were at or above my level.

I completed the Kvatch quest at lvl 2 or 3, and found it to be pretty easy. I even managed to keep most of my help intact until towards the end. Shortly after I cleared one of the random Oblivion gates, and found it too to be far from difficult. The next time I entered one of these random gates I was a lvl 10 and I not long after stepping foot inside I got owned by a group of Flame Atronachs. I mean I'm up for a challenge, but this was discouraging as I tried a couple more times and still died. I haven't been in one of those gates since. The loot you get there is not worth the hassle.
 

HardCode

Erudite
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
1,138
fizzelopeguss said:
Thieving

bursk said:
I've been reading that it's rather pointless to be a thief, breaking into shops etc to steal items, because said items will always be what's 'appropriate' to a person of your level, and you'll get similar items by fighting bandits, which you'll have to do at some point anyway.

Is this the case? If so, what's the point in risking breaking into somewhere and stealing?

rendelius said:
Roleplaying. This is a roleplaying game, you know, not some strange construction for overachievers.

bursk said:
So you like to roleplay a thief who pointlessly breaks into places with nothing valuable to steal? Do you roleplay a retard?

Can I make a plaque out of this and hang it on the Codex wall?
 

Bossman

Educated
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
53
fizzelopeguss said:
exciting thought, at this rate all the raiders and slavers in fallout 3 will be decked out in power armour and wielding plasma rifles. :lol:


*goes and sobs in his pillow*

Now, now, just because Bethesda fucked up the scaling system in Oblivion doesn't mean they'll implement it in Fallout 3 as well... right? :shock:
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
there's a pretty sweet thread where they all freak out about skills being locked when you get a bonus from a quest. It starts out like this.

BUG! BUG! BUG!

Oh noes! It's ruined, I hate you bethesda.

Ha Ha 360 fag0ts, your life is ruint 4-eva!

Then they realized the skills aren't locked - but you have to earn enough skill points to cover the reward before they advance again.
It was like shooting a fucking rabid lion with a tranq gun - the rest of the thread is all dick sucking and rationalization.

I'm sooo sorry Bethesda, I wish I had been more patient in doubting you.

Man, why did I take my copy back yesterday, I should have waited.

It's not a bug, stupid fag, it was a preview design and you suck at Java, so ur dumb.

Lordy, those people make me sick. On the bright side, hopefully somewhere there's a fatass 13 year old lieing dead in his bedroom with a "Why o Why was my mercantile stuck" suicide note covered in twinkie crumbs.
 

Mr. Teatime

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2003
Messages
365
I had a real bad feeling when the emperor died in the very beginning. So I'm told to protect the emperor with my life but the game locks my controls out for aboslutely no reason as I watch an assasin come and one-shot captain picard.
At least say some magic root spell or something is cast on me.
 

dagamer667

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
104
micmu said:
DarkUnderlord said:
micmu said:
Yes. And they also wear DAEDRIC ARMOR
You're shitting me?
I am not. When you hit level 20 (with a fighter, this is very fast), daedric armor pieces start appearing as regular loot and on NPCs.

OMGWTF?!!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Morrowind have fewer than half a dozen complete daedric armor sets? Glass armor was rare enough to only form about a dozen complete sets. Unfortunately, I heard about people on official forums encountering highwaymen decked out in daedric armor and shaking people down for 100 gold pieces.
 

Bossman

Educated
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
53
It's all true unfortunately. Wouldn't want the player to become too powerful, now would we?

Also, I picked us this funny little comment on the TES forums, regarding my review and the one from Gamespy:

"You're telling me these sites are giving Oblivion bad scores BEFORE Beth even releases a patch? That's not very productive... "

I mean, can you believe the nerve, reviewing the game before a patch could be released... what was I thinking? I should probably feel bad about, shouldn't I?
 

dagamer667

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
104
Claw said:
Shagnak said:
I went into Oblivion via the gate at Kvatch when I was 2nd level.
It was ridiculously easy.
Yet many people complain it was too hard. I would like to see someone who had trouble with a lvl10+ character try again with a character going straight for this gate, just to see how the claims that the different experiences are a result of varying player skill hold up.

Kvatch IS hard when you go in at level 10 or above. My lvl11 warrior char would not have survived it if it wasn't for a truckload of potions. At least that's the case without properly enchanted weapons (frost for fire atronachs and shock for scamps, clannfears, and various species of dremoras). Fire is also great vs trolls and undead. Of course, you'd better have your strength off the charts to carry all of that, and lots of gems + soul trap item/spell for field refills.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,706
Location
Lisboa, Portugal
BossmanCG said:
"You're telling me these sites are giving Oblivion bad scores BEFORE Beth even releases a patch? That's not very productive... "

I mean, can you believe the nerve, reviewing the game before a patch could be released... what was I thinking? I should probably feel bad about, shouldn't I?

It's also interesting to note this guy is calling reviews in the 80% range to be bad.
 

Bossman

Educated
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
53
Role-Player said:
It's also interesting to note this guy is calling reviews in the 80% range to be bad.

Well of course they're bad, haven't you seen what everyone else thinks of the game? All the rave reviews? :)
 

Thrawn05

Scholar
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
865
Location
The Mirror of Death void
BossmanCG said:
I mean, can you believe the nerve, reviewing the game before a patch could be released... what was I thinking? I should probably feel bad about, shouldn't I?

Yeah, don't you know? OB is a public beta now. Wait for the patch. :wink:


BTW, I liked the review.
 

roguefrog

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 6, 2003
Messages
545
Location
Tokyo, Japan
I'm sure every knows most game reviews use a 7-9 scale.

7 - Bad
8 - Decent
9 - Good

10 is a fluke and anything below 7 is trash not worth playing.
 

jplestat

Novice
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
40
Location
San Diego, CA
Claw said:
Shagnak said:
I went into Oblivion via the gate at Kvatch when I was 2nd level.
It was ridiculously easy.
Yet many people complain it was too hard. I would like to see someone who had trouble with a lvl10+ character try again with a character going straight for this gate, just to see how the claims that the different experiences are a result of varying player skill hold up.

In my game I went into the first Oblivion gate and the subsequent battle at Kvatch at level 15. It was incredibly difficult. The guards and soldiers were ridiculously weak, and died instantly. The Captain has to live to the end, so he wound up being unconcious the whole time. So it was me versus an army of high level Daedras. I got through it, but barely and was forced to reload several times.

I had saved a character right at the exit to the first dungeon where you can change everything before leaving, so I made a new character and went immediately to the Gate and Kvatch. I did it the gate very easily at lvl1, then levelled to 2 for the castle battle and did that easily as well. Only 1 guard died in the whole battle. It did seem very silly. The forces of evil that raze an entire city taken down by someone who just picked up a sword for the first time.

So what people are saying is true. You could probably finish the entire game at lvl1 if you wanted tp. No, I am certain you coud.

This is no question a huge mistake on Bethesdas part. I think they did it, to appeal to the average gamer more and make sure that they could experience everything in the world. In reality, they are going to ruin the experience for the average gamer, because he/she will not create an optimized build likely and when it scales it will get too difficult.

Oblivion is the only RPG game I have ever played that gets significantly more difficult as you level up. For a game designed for a hard core RPG audience, and done a little differently than Bethesda did it, that might be a great way to go. Let's face it, in all RPGS for the most part you build to some huge final battle to save the world, and it would make sense for it to get harder and harder as you go along. Most RPGs get easier the more powerful you get.

Bethesda really should not have done it this way. The outisde forests and stuff make sense to have this leveling scheme so you can GET TO any destinaition in the game you want to, but not necessarily be able to complete it. Random places should have been a combination of fixed difficulty locations from easy to extremely hard, and some that scale. The side quests you get could be based on level and steer you to the right ones. If you go off on your own, well you are on your own. The main quest should have been a set level thing designed for you to do each part at a certain level, so that everyones experience in the main quest is similar and the epic scale of it could be felt. This does not mean they should make it easier, but at a set difficulty designed for certain character ranges.

If you go to anywhere that they are talking about this, this is the big topic. Bethesda should rethink this and rebalance the game similar to what I suggested.

On items: item scaling is completely reatarded. It is not quite as bad as some are making it, but it is pretty bad. My character did find some items early on that were out of depth seemingly though.

Having said all that, I still like it. For someone like me that has played almost every RPG that has been released for computers since the days of the C64, I find it fun and quite challenging. I am now in the early 20s for a level. I have not found an area I could not get through. But it requires constant changing of of the skills and strategies that you use each time you level. You have to use a combination of ranged, melee, spells, stealth to get through. It is very challenging and quite fun. And it is doable albeit very difficult. It requires a lot of thought and planning and choosing the right tactics and combinations to get past each situation. In other words, all the combat skills I have developed over the years in various RPGS and tactical games. I think a newer player though would get frustrated and give up though. But many here for example, might like the challenge.

One final thing. Many of the side quests are quite excellent. They are interesting and varied, so far better than the main quest. One in particular is one of the neatest side quests I have done. The Oblivion areas are really kind of unimaginative and predictable on the other hand.

Long post but to summarize:

Yes the balancing and leveling scheme is as bad as everyone says. The lower the level of the character the more powerful he actually is relative to what he has to fight.

Bethesda desparately needs to rebalance this game and offer a patch. It is quite silly and broken the way it is.

For hard core experienced gamers though, the combat difficulty can and does make a rewarding challenge.

Unfortunately, Bethesda listens to their customers maybe the least of any company, and made many many very poor design decisions in this game purely for perceived financial reasons rather than to make a great game such as the interface which sucks hard on the PC, the removal of HDR and AA to placate Nvidia, and the render distance thing. I think the odds of them doing the right thing and rebalancing are about the same as me having a 3 way with Uma and Liz Hurley tonight unfortunately.
 

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
989
What makes me vomit is how stupid and fanatic Oblivion's fanboys can be. They just don't allow themselves to see any flaws in their long awaited and worshiped game. But worse than that: they don't allow others to not like Oblivion.

And they're so retarded, that tehy are beyond reason.
 

Claw

Erudite
Patron
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
3,777
Location
The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Whipporowill said:
Well, imagine how much fun I have in Kvatch at lvl 22. It's insane. Guards just aggro more mobs, it's like a bad day in mmorpg-land.
I hear it gets better around lvl fourty or so. Just keep on truckin' :lol:


BossmanCG said:
Now, now, just because Bethesda fucked up the scaling system in Oblivion doesn't mean they'll implement it in Fallout 3 as well... right? :shock:
Of course not. Just like they didn't reuse the broken leveling system from Morrowind in Oblivion. Right?


Mr. Teatime said:
At least say some magic root spell or something is cast on me.
Nah, if we start giving reasonable explanations for things, players will expect everything to make sense soon. Let's not go there, that takes effort.

Did I say "that takes effort"? I meant "that takes too much effort" naturally. What we do is brilliance by definition. Asking more is asking the impossible.
 

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