Enough Emotional Power to Bring You to Tears...

[sea]

Planescape made me tear up a bit, though I didn't exactly bawl my eyes out. Granted, I probably wouldn't have if it wasn't for the music. The entire end sequence is just masterfully done, as is the meeting with Ravel, which literally had some dialogue decisions I had to stop and think about for a good 5-10 minutes before making - in fact, I kind of didn't want to choose at all. I don't think any other game has made me truly paralysed with indecision.

It's easy to be cynical about games, and doubly so when you feel you're being manipulated emotionally. I think it's a sign of true craftsmanship that something can elicit emotions even when you're often dedicated to avoiding them.

As for other games... hm. I can't really think of any. I tend to be immune to "cheap shots" regarding character drama, and unfortunately most games never go past that level. I'd say... maybe Sandra's death from NWN2 came the closest recently? The entire Haven sequence is done very, very well, and it works because it's a character you get to know over the course of many hours. Additionally, it "breaks" the game rules by killing a plot-critical NPC when every other game would do the whole bait-and-switch, or have some way to bring her back, or some other escape route. After that sequence, you really do feel like you fucked things up and have to pick up the pieces. Great moment in an otherwise mediocre game.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Would brofist OP if I could.

 

[Excommunicator]

Emotions I have experienced in games

Anger
Fear
Happiness
Excitement

Emotions I have not experienced in games

Sadness
Tender/Love


Based on this chart

I have experienced some sympathy/attachment for characters but it wasn't much emotional, more in a "this character has been with me through the game so far so I am now biased towards keeping them" kind of way

 

[CappenVarra]

Well, mandatory enforcing of the "Pause at the end of round" setting would be easy (I guess), but I doubt it would be much of an improvement one usually associates with turn-based combat. Just try it with that setting and you'll see.

Well, it would be interesting to see. A we-go/phase-based system wouldn't be too hard to implement. Just force auto-pausing at the end of each round, remove manual pausing and auto-pause triggers, and lock out player input while the game is unpaused. Of course, you'd have to make sure the AI doesn't issue orders (such as movement orders) mid-round too so that everything is fair. The logic for all this is rather simple.

I have no idea how it would play though. Could be fucking shit.

Well, yes, a faithful adaptation of AD&D rules would be nice, if nothing for nostalgia reasons - with each combat participant choosing their action(s) for the round, then rolling initiative, modifying by weapon speed factor or spell casting time, and then seeing how it plays out (with some actions happening simultaneously depending on the rolls etc.). That's actually a very decent system in P&P, if a bit fiddly (let's not get into round segments and such)...

The general problem of "making Baldur's Gate turn-based": what kind of damn turn-based or phase-based system allows you to move but not see how far will the character move during the round? Remember, we're talking about Infinity Engine pathfinding here; you send your character towards the enemy, and he/she/it decides the shortest path is through the opposite end of the map... So, you need a different movement system and a feedback mechanism showing how far can you move, move + attack once, etc. (like the movement indicators in ToEE, footstep paths in JA2, or such).

And looking by the example of IWD2 i.e. the shittiest 3rd edition adaptation for the computer ever - which cut out about half of the ruleset, and precisely the half that was about turns and precise turn-dependent timing, movement and actions - Infinity Engine is a really shitty base for such a system.

So basically, it would be a completely new combat engine that just happens to reuse Infinity Engine rendering, inventory screen etc. "Making Baldur's Gate turn-based" makes as much sense as "making Starcraft turn-based" or "making Baldur's Gate use first person camera" - it was never meant for such a thing, forget about it...

Uhm, what was the thread topic again?

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

If battles in BG2 were turn-based, I'd probably ragequit before the end of the first dungeon.

When 99% encounters are filler anyway, it's better to get the job done fast and move on (same with PS:T). Some boss battles were alright and fun though, like the big dragon fights the first time you went through them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEK84_OSb38

If they were introduce a turn-based system, that would also require them to make encounters more interesting/challenging to justify the time you put into moving each separate "piece" - and really, I have no confidence that they could pull this off. For example, ToEE tried to make a really faithful adaptation of 3E rules and was turn based, but most battles were so incredibly boring that sometimes you really wished for the fast-forward or "autobattle" button. (yes, I'm aware a lot of people on the Codex love ToEE for some reason...)

 

[The Vault Dweller]

Sorry, The Vault Dweller, but it isn't acceptable to just dismiss combat in RPGs on such limited grounds.

You can't just say, "Of all the 4 or 5 RPGs I have played, only Diablo had good combat, so RPGs have terrible combat and are not meant for combat".

You make a very definitive statement: "X and Y are the only essential things for RPGs". That kind of a strongly definitive statement requires very strong backing. Instead, you are completely discounting the fact that there are hundreds of RPGs released across the 30 year history of cRPGs (many of them with excellent combat) and that you are grossly generalizing all of them on a very limited population of games. As if Fallout, Torment, and Diablo are the only games ever made.

To show what is wrong with this line of argument, imagine somebody saying, "FPSes are about cinematics and the shooting is non-essential. Only SWAT 4 had good shooting anyway, but everything else - from CoD to BioShock - is about watching cinematics and cutscenes, so why judge FPSes on their shooting?"

I think MMXI was a bit nasty in dismissing you, but he was exactly right in pointing out that your statement about only story and setting really mattering in RPGs says more about you.

Well let me put it this way. I've played games for 20 years as my main hobby and most of them are RPG's. I struggle to think of examples with combat good enough to be memorable, but can't help, but come up with many examples with a great story or setting. I suppose maybe I just prefer them that way and don't note what I choose to care less about.

Yes I've played games with excellent turn-based combat with lots of depth and variety and as much as I've enjoyed them they don't "grab" me anywhere near as much as stories do.

Yes I've played X-com multiple times in fact and been very good at it. I haven't played JA 1 or 2 so maybe I haven't seen what "the best" has to offer.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller

 

[Edwin]

I love PS:T but I hate the ending too,on my latest playthrough I collected every useful item(usable in the fortress of regrets) because I hoped for a better ending(I dont read walkthroughs often) but nothing makes a difference.You can reach the end through different ways but it will be always the same(I brought along Vhailor too and tried to resurrect different party members(as you can res just 1 of them) but nothing changed).

I dont get why I hear often that the story is complete and there can be no PS:T 2(Sigil does not exist in new DnD)...the Nameless One is in one of the 9 nine circles of hell,fighting on the side of the Tanarri(chaos) against the Baatezu(order),(fun fact:it always seemed easy to reach chaotic alignment with TNO but I never succeeded in getting lawful alignment,its probably hard).Yes,we reach some kind of end,but that is just a start of a new(and probably very long) journey of TNO.

I found the ending emotional too but it makes me angry not sad

outside the ending 1 other thing always bothered me in PS:T(we are talking about a RPG): lets say that you wake up,remember nothing but sooner or later you notice that you are immortal.What would you do?Looking for my mortality would be probably the last thing I would think about,TNO has potantial to be 1 of the greatest mages of the planes(I prefer mage just because),why would you give up immortality,power and Annah/Fall from grace for figthing in the blood war until the end of time and further(without hope of ever escaping)?

The only possible explanation I can imagine that we get to play 1 of the stupidest incarnations,if TNO would have a brain he wouldnt look for his mortality,he should be happy that he got rid of it(and anyway,if you lose all your memories thats like death,because your personality disappears in the void so yeah looking for my mortality and risking to lose my memories by jumping into danger and dieing a lot seems like the stupidest idea).I would gather as much power as possible on different planes until Elminster himself would be just a snotty kid compared to me(if I am immortal I have a few hundred years to do whatever the fuck I want right?),I wouldnt worry about my fucking immortality at all(I would probably just bro up with some kind of major deity and he/she(Mystra,Asmodeus,Talos etc.) would solve this bloody immortality problem for me in exchange for my services without sending me to hell to suffer there until the end of time and further lol)

 

[FeelTheRads]

as you can res just 1 of them

There's a way to resurrect all of them.

I dont get why I hear often that the story is complete and there can be no PS:T 2

figthing in the blood war until the end of time and further(without hope of ever escaping)?

That's why.

Avellone actually said it's done. I guess he told the story he wanted to tell, no need to make shit up for the sake of a sequel.

 

[Edwin]

as you can res just 1 of them

There's a way to resurrect all of them.

you can res just 1 before you merge(so in combat),just the joined transcendent+nameless one can mass res

 

[J_C]

The only possible explanation I can imagine that we get to play 1 of the stupidest incarnations,if TNO would have a brain he wouldnt look for his mortality,he should be happy that he got rid of it(and anyway,if you lose all your memories thats like death,because your personality disappears in the void so yeah looking for my mortality and risking to lose my memories by jumping into danger and dieing a lot seems like the stupidest idea).I would gather as much power as possible on different planes until Elminster himself would be just a snotty kid compared to me(if I am immortal I have a few hundred years to do whatever the fuck I want right?),I wouldnt worry about my fucking immortality at all(I would probably just bro up with some kind of major deity and he/she(Mystra,Asmodeus,Talos etc.) would solve this bloody immortality problem for me in exchange for my services without sending me to hell to suffer there until the end of time and further lol)

Because the plot demands it. Seriously, this is dumb question. In every RPG ever, you as a person might act differently as the character does in the plot. Plus, having immortality in the case of TNO is not a good thing. IIRC with every death, he loses more memory, and after a while, he would be like just a shell, without soul (or something like that). And it's not his choice to die. He would die even if he didn't do anything. He is chased. And not every man wants power. He realises that he has done terrible things, he is chased by shadows and other peoples, he is responsible for the death of his love, he suffered a lot in his life. I think there is a point, when you don't want to be immortal.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

outside the ending 1 other thing always bothered me in PS:T(we are talking about a RPG): lets say that you wake up,remember nothing but sooner or later you notice that you are immortal.What would you do?Looking for my mortality would be probably the last thing I would think about,TNO has potantial to be 1 of the greatest mages of the planes(I prefer mage just because),why would you give up immortality,power and Annah/Fall from grace for figthing in the blood war until the end of time and further(without hope of ever escaping)?

I guess you missed the point of the story... (regret, redemption, making up for mistakes/evil done by the Practical Incarnation - which was your "dream TNO" as you just described).

Besides, you couldn't become "ZOMG ALL POWERFUL" even if you wanted to, where even the Practical Incarnation failed - the shades, The Transcendent One etc. would have caught up to you and destroyed you eventually.

 

[RK47]

lol @ stupid incarnation label.
What the shit? It's a guy who knows something is wrong with him and sought closure. That's all there is to it.
You could argue that it doesn't present much of RP experience, but honestly it wasn't that kind of RPG. You cannot even name him.

 

[Edwin]

The practical incarnation and all the other incarnations were different personalities,different persons(not me,the "current" NO).Why should I feel guilt because of something I didnt commit?As I see it my Nameless One is an entirely new person,who inherited a cool immortal body,special abilities etc.
From my perspective when the story starts my Nameless One is innocent as a day old sheep or baby just with the advantage of having a "cool immortal body".

Are you sure that you cant become ZOMG ALL POWERFUL?I farmed the modron cube until I was able to memorise like 3-4 level 9 spells,stats were on 20+,my NO was already as powerful as a half god(well,I am pretty sure that my NO could wipe the floor with Khelben Blackstaff the best apprentice of Elminster...imagine what kind of power you could gather in a few centuries).Shades?Dont make me laugh they never posed a threat

I understand that the story is about suffering and torment(Sigil is like some kind of purgatory) and your companions are there to sufffer too(they all have their own torment and guilts),but look at what you achieved with all that effort and power...from the purgatory you got into the deepest pit of hell,GZ,thats a real improvement

according to my psichology studies(and after thinking on it I came to the conclusion that its true) a person is nothing else but the totality(summary?) of his memories,therefore my NO is an entirely new person

edit: Morte wasnt stupid so he escaped from Baator(deepshit hell) to live on sigil with TNO(Morte is a coward,he crapped into his non existant pants from the thought of going back into the pillar of skulls),I bet that his life on sigil was like the paradise itself compared to Baator,the plane of evil and order(yes he felt connected to TNO because of the crime he commited against him,but that was just his excuse,going back into Baator was the worst thing he was able to imagine).What I am saying is that you go through all that shit just to get from purgatory into the deepshit hell to serve the plane of chaos and evil in a neverending war,I am selfish so it sounds like exactly the worst thing the "stupid incarnation" can do

 

[RK47]

:patriot:

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Well, PS:T story doesn't really cater to the "evil" power-hungry maniac you've described. It's set on rails, mostly, to fit into the mind of a TNO that tries to find answers to who he is, and some sense of closure.

I think Oblivion Skyrim would suit your tastes better, to become godlike powerful etc.? Why bother with a "storyfag" game?

 

[Edwin]

I said that I love the game,but it bothers me that I must play a stupid incarnation

You can make lots of important decisions during the game,but you are not allowed to make the most important decision amongst all: what the fuck you want to do with your life,the "stupid incarnation" already made the decision for you.

I understand that there were limitations at BI,mainly 1 writer,resources etc. all I am saying that outside the ending this 1 thing bothers me(but nothing is perfect).The game is brilliant and 1 of the best RPGs ever.

I already played skyrim a few hundred hours long,but my NO would wipe the floor with my best BROvahkin so I dunno what you are talking about(you cant get 1/4 as powerful in Skyrim as a mage NO,Skyrim is not DnD)

 

[Ion Prothon II]

as you can res just 1 of them

There's a way to resurrect all of them.

you can res just 1 before you merge(so in combat),just the joined transcendent+nameless one can mass res

Wrong. Player can lure the Transcendent One out of the tower for a while and resurrect entire team for the final fight.

I think Edwin has some point, except psychological bullshit and general overthinking the stuff (logic? In D&D setting?). Say whatever you want about tasteful fatalism, I found the ending disapointing, from player's perspective. I mean, when I put some effort into being good, or staying neutral through the entire game, I'd rather except something more than just going to hell no matter what I've done. The initially planned 3 endings for good, neutral and evil character would make much more sense.

I think Oblivion Skyrim would suit your tastes better, to become godlike powerful etc.? Why bother with a "storyfag" game?

WTF man? When you become godlike in recent TES, you gain nothing but godlike skeletons and epic mudcrabs to fight.

Besides, actually PST offered a really unique and satisfying vibe of rising to power, especially when played as a mage.

 

[Edwin]

as you can res just 1 of them

There's a way to resurrect all of them.

you can res just 1 before you merge(so in combat),just the joined transcendent+nameless one can mass res

Wrong. Player can lure the Transcendent One out of the tower for a while and resurrect entire team for the final fight.

thats new,looks like I have a reason to play the game again

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

I see, well... The whole storyline would make no sense from an "evil" perspective. Why even go into the Fortress? Kill TTO => die; merge => become mortal again, and die.

Why seek out answers? (and not just enjoy your immortality for the lulz/power?) It would have been a totally different PS:T.

I see the point that, if PS:T were built on the premise of having good/neutral/evil playthroughs, it would make sense for the player to re-live the Practical Incarnation experience again and be an evil scheming power-hungry dude. But it is what it is...
The "evil" path as it is mostly "chaotic stupid" path, e.g. abusing your party members to the point of them leaving you, killing TTO and dying etc. Just for the flavour, mostly.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

This shall be a true test of the new forum design, for is PST not but a jRPG made by our beloved MCA?

This clearly illustrates the need for a "Western jRPGs" forum.

brb, site feedback

 

[LeStryfe79]

Okami made me cry.

 

[malko_sundervere]

I've played games for over 20 years with most of that experience in RPGs. I've had huge exposure to storyline in games and I must admit in all that time I've only cried once before and that was during the Fallout 1 ending. Also all the people I know in real life tell me I'm emotionless drone and I also personally believe that emotion justify the actions of people who make bad decisions to the point where I intentionally suppress my feelings at all times. As such I almost never cry.

Really?
All of my friends call me a tremendous pussy-ass faggot.
I teared up over PS:T's ending too, but at least I didn't over Fallout's!

 

[Gord]

Edwin

What you are looking for was never the intention of the devs with PST. Also it makes me wonder if you understood what they tried to tell you with it...

Theoretically it might be a nice touch to offer the possibility, but it would be the opposite of the story they wanted to tell with the game. It's therefore pointless to complain about it.
You could just the same ask for a different version of Doom, where you can gift the Demons with little flowers and ask them to repent their sins, because that's just how YOUR marine rolls.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Also it makes me wonder if you understood what they tried to tell you with it...

Yeah, this. What Edwin asks would have actually been contrary to what the whole story is about. LOL UR IMMORTAL SO U CAN WIN THE UNIVERSE is not what it's about.

Speaking of emotional engagement, though, did anyone try to sell Dak'kon as a slave? I just couldn't do that to the poor guy.