Review Oblivion Review

[DarkUnderlord]

The dungeon screens look great, imo, but again, the darkness is the converting from bmp to jpg issue.

I usually give any screens I make a +20% gamma adjustment to brighten them up.

If you couldn't simply grind into being a demigod, then it might be a hard fight and require a certain amount of skill, as it stands, all you need to do to win is "work hard" by doing a bunch of tedius grinding, i.e. by spending TIME leveling. Obligious keeps the grinding in there for people who like watching numbers go up, but it does what it can to keep the balance so that you don't have to grind if you don't want to. Naturally all the MMO kiddies are in an uproar over not being "rewarded" for their time.

I think this only confirms that Bethesda are moving more and more towards making an FPS rather than RPGs. God help Fallout 3.

As for a game where levelling is balanced and that even at level 50 a band of bandits are still fun to fight (though a lot easier to pwn) ->> http://www.taleworlds.net/

Just because Bethesda can't implement it properly doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

[Bobbin]

Won't comment too much on the review but I'm wondering what this means for FO3. I mean, the only thing from Oblivion I would like to be carried over is the quest design. The combat doesn't fit and even the AI of the old Fallouts was better (NPCs reacting to perks and quest outcome etc.). But considering that FO3 won't even show up on E3 it's probably pretty useless to talk about that now.

 

[El Dee]

The idea for Gothic 2's monsters were to actually be fearsome and hard. At level 1 you're on par with the farmers, not even the city guard. As you should be since you're level one.

What they fear, you fear.

It's alot more immersive to have realistic monsters like that, i'm tired of this bullshit where monsters should always be able to be defeated by the player whenever. It doesn't cause you to be afraid of them or try to avoid them and it makes the NPCs sound like idiots when they scream about them.

I hear you! At the beginning of Gothic 2 I thought it sucked that I got completely owned by shadow beasts or bandits, but once I got to the level where I could defeat them it made my accomplishments all the more worthwhile.

Whereas in OB it sucks because there are no areas that are off-limits because the baddies are too strong.

 

[volanta]

I wanted to say thanks for the review and for not drinking the kool-aid. I've been reading all these reviews and wondering if they were playing the same game I was, because it certainly wasn't a role-playing game. Bethesda should call and market it as it is--an action adventure game, and then we rpg players wouldn't feel so ripped off. We would have come to the game with different expectations.

 

[Abernathy]

"Whenever I hear this, I can't help but think of McDonalds food, Microsoft operating systems, VHS, and the Spice Girls.

Some people really need to learn to differenciate between great marketing and a great product, methinks."

Poor comparison. McDonalds' success is more than just amrketing. Afterall, many of their billions of customers are repeat customers. Whether YOU personally like its food is irrelevant.

All the above examples have repeat customers - not because they're quality products, but because they're accessible and convenient. If you wanted to take a friend out for a lovely dinner, I doubt you'd opt for a Big Mac

(Context reminder: OB fanboys saying 'It MUST be good because it's shipped 1.7 million!')

 

[jiujitsu]

This was fucking beautiful. I haven't really truly laughed as hard and as genuinely as I did when I got to the part with the "Cannot sit in owned furniture" message. Tears were streaming down my face. Great review.

Now I will go turn off my lights put on The Cure and weep myself to sleep while hugging my Fallout CDs with all my might.

 

[AnalogKid]

The only way to have leveling have consequences in the game world is to give it an effect on game difficulty (i.e. make the game grow easier as your character becomes UBAR). Many CRPGs implement this, but it's nothing to their credit.

The appropriate way is to present the player with goals that cannot be accomplished at all until he has developed. If improving your character == bandits easier to kill (only), the game is already FUBAR. Meaningful consequences dictate that the player be able to accomplish something (win the game). RPG's are not streetfighter 2, with an infinite amount of equal-strength fighting available. They are supposed to put the player in a role where he can grow and influence the gameworld. Finding out that blind dumbfucks thrashing around randomly is no longer a challenge after you train to become a blackbelt is not a balance problem, it's realistic and rewarding improvement. I'm definitely thinking miles is right in stating that you just don't like RPGs.

If you couldn't simply grind into being a demigod, then it might be a hard fight and require a certain amount of skill, as it stands, all you need to do to win is "work hard" by doing a bunch of tedius grinding, i.e. by spending TIME leveling. Obligious keeps the grinding in there for people who like watching numbers go up, but it does what it can to keep the balance so that you don't have to grind if you don't want to. Naturally all the MMO kiddies are in an uproar over not being "rewarded" for their time.

The thing is, crappy MMO's are the exact example of keeping things balanced as you describe it. The numbers keep going up and the badguys keep going up in difficulty, so nothing ever really changes (again, the origin of "level treadmill"). At least in most MMO's the player has to choose to change his hunting grounds to get the same challenge. Oblivion even takes away that choice!

It seems like you're disappointed that individual players can become UBAR in the first place, and I tend to agree with that. The not-so-simple answer (which I believe was in Daggerfall) is skill degradation. The M&B example of keeping players with a realistic amount of health also makes them quite mortal even at high levels.

If all you ever want to do is fight the same difficulty fights over and over and over again, just play any action game (or Oblivion), but complaining that if you improve yourself then fights get easier is fucking retarded. Again it's not "things have been done poorly in the past, let's just scrap them", it should be "let's do it better".

 

[Solik]

RPG's are not streetfighter 2, with an infinite amount of equal-strength fighting available. They are supposed to put the player in a role where he can grow and influence the gameworld. Finding out that blind dumbfucks thrashing around randomly is no longer a challenge after you train to become a blackbelt is not a balance problem, it's realistic and rewarding improvement.

This is still arguing about something nonexistant, at least where Oblivion is concerned. I was still fighting rats and wolves at level 12 -- just in addition to other things, too. People, most of whom haven't played it at all or played it very little, have blown this issue way out of proportion. I mean, I only really noticed the lack of weaker-than-me opponents that I had already beaten in the Oblivion gates themselves, and the motivation behind that appears to be "the main quest is fun whether you play it before or after a faction quest."

To make matters worse, this whole thing was tweaked by modders in very few weeks. Yeah yeah, I know the argument -- "but modders shouldn't have to fix it." Get this -- some people actually like the levelled lists the way they were implemented. A lot of people, given that it resulted in a split community opinion (in the TES community, not here) instead of a one-sided Oblivion-bashing. Bethesda picked the option that at least works to some degree for all gamers (particularly for the average X-Box gamer, if we're to believe the stereotypes), then made it very easy for people to customize it to fit to their liking (for PC-owning CRPG fans). My game is "fixed." I saw storm atronachs patrolling with necromancers around a ruin at level 1 (and got the fuck out of there), and at level 10, I'm still encountering bandits in weak gear (only there's 3-6 of them instead of one). And all I had to do was click a Download button and check a box.

 

[AnalogKid]

I mean, I only really noticed the lack of weaker-than-me opponents that I had already beaten in the Oblivion gates themselves, and the motivation behind that appears to be "the main quest is fun whether you play it before or after a faction quest."

I agree with most of your post, and I expect the designers to play some tricks to keep the balance fun, but a crappy implementation of almost complete world-difficulty-scaling is not the right answer.

We've been discussing it mostly as a "the monsters keep up with me as I improve" issue because that's what creates the ridiculous treadmill and robs the player of any feeling of reward and creates ridiculous situations like town guards that could destroy the world with a snap of their fingers, but they still need you to click on the widget to save them.

But the opposite side is, imo, worse. The monsters "keep up" with you when you're weak, as well. Meaning bullshit like arena champion, most feared fighter in all the land, fresh off the banana boat with hardly any skills!; and the most pathetic demons ever heard, able to be squished by a meagre mud-crab, if they ever fought; and absolutely nothing worth exploring to try and find, becuase you'll find the same shit you already have; and no thrill or exhileration or fear of the unkown because hey, they'll be just strong enough for you to beat; and of course, the fact that if you accidentally use non-combat skills as primaries, the entire world will soon be beyond you because their fighting ability is going up as your persuasion is.

Consistent challenge is a very good design goal. Last I checked, though, Oblivion was not hyped as "the most consistently challenging fighting game EVAR". Destroying almost every other aspect of role-playing game-ness in order to cater to the mindless fuckwits that never want to be in over their heads is as stupid as the mindless fuckwits themselves. I'm not saying they don't exist (the fuckwits, that is), clearly they're more important for business than me or most of the regulars here at the 'codex. I'm just refusing to pretend their retarded game is a good role-playing experience.

I sincerely hope the modders can fix it, maybe in a few years I'll borrow someone's copy and play through the game I wanted that Bethesda had such vile contempt for.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Apparently we were all born in 1999 when 3e came out, and VD is some sort of PnP Nazi. Oh and ESF now has a sort of comeback: http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=397047
with this as one of the main points: IT IS THE JOB OF THE PLAYER TO ROLEPLAY!!!1!

Son of a bitch! Where were all these TES fans earlier in my life? If only I'd known it was my job to role-play in a game rather than the developers' job to present me with a setting that contains situations in the gameworld that I can solve based on how I built my character! My fucking bad!

So, who's up for a ZDoom role-playing session?

 

[The Internets]

Nice review. To those saying it should have been more aggressive: Why?

Everyone who gave a rip about this game has already played it and made up their mind. The only lingering subject to cover was the crystallization of developer hype vs. reality.

In that regard this review is spot on. We all know RAI is laughably bad, the quests too linear, and that beautiful forests didn't actually help game-play. What we needed to see was how the developers told us how sweet things were going to be, and then counter such quotes with their own game.

My take--Oblivion isn't terrible, but it's not great either. In a word I'd say it's 'forgettable'.


It's high time to move on, with Vault Dwellers review a fitting exclamation point to this long and melodramatic saga called Oblivion.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Here's a list of the problem with Oblivion's Auto-level System and why it makes the gameplay weaker.

1) Very counter intuitive in certain occasions. The often cited Arena Champion at Level 1 is the also the best example of this. You know you're weak, and he is a well armed monstrocity who spends every waking hour training.

2) Minimal rewards for early level accomplishments. Just suppose for a few seconds that against all odds an early level thief successfully breaks into a house and cracks a "very hard" lock. What is his reward for this great feat? A few coins, and maybe some flawed jewels. Diito for managing to kill a gaurd or outlaw weaking ebony armor (if they existed anyways). Doing hard things should be more rewarding to encourage the player to try them.

3) Immersion breaking high level encounters. Bandits should not be able to get their hands on glass or daedric armor, when they didn't have it earlier.

4) No incentive to level. Why level when its only going to make things harder, when traditionally leveling was seen as a way to make things easier. As it stands, players are given a huge incentive to use minor skills since it can allow the character to become stronger with out making the world become stronger. Sure you'd get more money once you start leveling, but the only thing to do with that money is buy the house or make the occassional spell. Thats not much of an incentive.

5) Loss of "Epic Feel". Challenging the King of Worms should have been a scary ordeal. I should have had to check to make certian I had enough health potions and enough magic staves to make certain I could win. As it was, I didn't bother with any of that since I knew he'd fight at my level. Taking this further, I never felt that way about any encounter or place I could go. There was no place in the game for high level characters to go that they couldn't have gone when they were a lower level.

6) Screws certain character builds. Specifically character builds that focus more on support skills such as alchemy or mercantilism. The auto-level system only recognizes the level, and seems to assume you must have focused on combat. There may be that difficulty slider, but that should be people who want a greater or lesser challenge, not people who choose a different character build.

The people who claim to like Auto-leveling today, are soon going to find they hate it (unless they are blinded and deluded fanboys). It just takes away any motivation to keep playing once you run out of interesting quests to do. And with only 4 guilds (I won't call the arena a guild, especially not in the sense as a quest giver), that happens pretty quickly.

 

[Human Shield]

The people who claim to like Auto-leveling today, are soon going to find they hate it (unless they are blinded and deluded fanboys). It just takes away any motivation to keep playing once you run out of interesting quests to do. And with only 4 guilds (I won't call the arena a guild, especially not in the sense as a quest giver), that happens pretty quickly.

Noes dudez, don't you get it? The system was another level of freedamn that genius Beth put in. Because you have the CHOICE to install a mod from the magical mod fairies that changes it to fit your role.

So you can roleplay that you can be the greatest fighter in the world after learning to tie your shoes, THE ROLEPLAY IS UP TO YOU!!!!!111

 

[Excrément]

I'd place some different weight on various issues but a pretty good read. Not sure what I think of the dev quote thing in a review but it's an interesting technique and certainly makes it different to other reviews.

I'd like to see a little more credit for the quest writing - they're completely linear but some of them are nice mini-stories with occasionally inventive situations. Quite a surprise to me after Morrowind. On the other hand, I'd have criticised the character development system even harder.

One thing I don't really embrace is the idea that Daggerfall is an outstanding RPG while Oblivion is only an adventure. Daggerfall is unquestionably deeper but I think some of the critcisms are the same. I'm not a Daggerfall afficianado (I hate excessively large random dungeons and the bugs and static world killed me) - so perhaps I just didn't play it enough - but I don't recall branching quest lines or too many multiple solutions.

so true, most of the critics here could be said for Daggerfall. and each time VD talk about Daggerfall VD praises it.
Either VD don't like any TES games, or it is just hypocrisy.

The only quote I like, it is the one from Gavin Carter about the so-called political plots. This one was for me one of the biggest lie a developer could make.

 

[Atrokkus]

Hate to break it up for you , but I have a question.
About the "Can't sit on owned furniture" screenshot.

Does that mean I can't sit on other's furniture, that is in private estates, just because it's not, well, mine? Or it's somehow related to the RAI scripts that have markers on chairs for npcs to sit down on periodically?

 

[Eclecticist]

I always enjoy reading the Codex reviews, and that was no exception.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Well, unlike I (and probably VD) thought, there is nothing much to fight about this review. It's opinionated but fair, balanced and, I gues, as in -depth as it can be within the given length. And I share most of the criticism, althouh i would put a different emphasis on certain things. So, thanks for the review VD, I like it much better than I would have thought based on some of your more vitriolic forum comments.
I think it would have been worth mentioning the improvement in quest writing (although, alas, not in quest design) - if there is one positive sign for the future in Oblivion, that would be it.

There is some things where I still disagree (like the relative evaluation of Daggerfall) but even there I can sort of agree. To me, both DF and MW were still steps towards my own dream game - while MW reduced quite a number of "RPG" options it also brought improvements to the table that made it worthwhile, fresh, and exiting for me; the main one being a landscape worth exploring and a very indepth picture of dunmer history and culture, the lore aspect. Also neat little new things like crossbows, throwing weapons and spears, hehe.
With Oblvion that feeling of progress and ambition is missing, Oblivion is like the fat, self-satisfied, well groomed boy in the TES family - slick, smart, successful, but with no vision beyond his own ego.

I still think it could have gone different based on what we knew before release - although i obviously did not put enough store in the warning signs. Had physics, the sneaking overhaul, radiant AI really been implemented to their full potential in gameplay terms, I could probably have overlooked Oblivion's short-handed dialogue and linearity, because once again, it would have moved forward towards this truly interactive world that I ant to one day play. As it is, all of these things turned out less impressive and often remain being mere visual improvements.
The initial exitement of exploring MW (finding the first dunmer fort in the swamps was one of my favourite moments) never came back to me in Oblivion - too quickly it becomes clear that the same pattern of random dungeons persists - Ayelid ruins, goblin caves, forts, and oblivion gates instead of daedric ruins, dunmer tombs, dwemer ruins, caves and dunmer forts. There are certainly many improvements - dungeon design, combat, visuals, quest story-writing - but the areas i most hope would improve, character interaction (not only dialogue, I had also hoped for being able to distract, and being able to manipulate RAI more) and world interaction (what a wated opportunity that physics system is!) have not.
One criticism I would add to what's in the review is that (as far as I have seen so far) there is not nearly as much love in the lore this time (one of the great qualities of MW, even over DF, for me). Nothing as intriguing as the dissent within the tribunal temple, the various accounts of the events of red mountain, the dwemer mystery, etc. Where are all the new details on the imperial history, the Ayelids, the accounts of the wars and intrigues of the empire? The only interestin one I have read so far was about the campaign for Akavir, instead the imperials seem to have a great fascination with the eastern province as you can read more about that place than about their home province.

 

[Section8]

Does that mean I can't sit on other's furniture, that is in private estates, just because it's not, well, mine? Or it's somehow related to the RAI scripts that have markers on chairs for npcs to sit down on periodically?

It means VD fucking smacked it down. Unfortunately, he forgot to pay for and download the broken furniture mod. Either that, or...

Basically an object that can be picked up or interacted with can either be free for all, or tagged as "owned" by someone. For static, interactive items, it's mostly to identify illegal activities such as picking a locked door or display case, but for chairs, I'd imagine they tag some as being owned if the owners RAI script involves them sitting on a specific chair for a scripted event, like a dinner party.

--

Anyway, a good review, and pretty unique in terms of presentation. It came across as fairly even handed in terms of the verdict, even if the criticism of the hype was always going to be negative.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, thanks for the review VD, I like it much better than I would have thought based on some of your more vitriolic forum comments.

If I had to write an essay on Bethesda's design philosophies, it would have had more vitriol than you can handle. Oblivion is only a game, and there is no reason to hate it for what it could have been if the original team worked on it.

I think it would have been worth mentioning the improvement in quest writing (although, alas, not in quest design)

The writing is wortless without decent design. Besides, the game throws gems like "Aren't you afraid to die?" (what are you, fucking 10?) at you every now and then, so, it's a mixed bag.

With Oblvion that feeling of progress and ambition is missing, Oblivion is like the fat, self-satisfied, well groomed boy in the TES family - slick, smart, successful, but with no vision beyond his own ego.

Nice picture

I still think it could have gone different based on what we knew before release - although i obviously did not put enough store in the warning signs.

Based on what we knew before the release, the game is hardly a surpise. Based on what developers lied to us about...

One criticism I would add to what's in the review is that (as far as I have seen so far) there is not nearly as much love in the lore this time

Agree, but I thought it was less important than other issues, and then, like I said, I didn't want to turn the review into a novel.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I don't agree it's worthless - it's the only thing that makes the lack of choice somewhat bearable. If I am still forced to play through linear stories, then I prefer that at least they are well written.

 

[Zomg]

Woo, finally some Codex review response threads are getting up to the lock threshold on the Bethesda forums. I was afraid the common specimens had all drowned in their bathtubs or died fighting in the McDonald's-Burgerking jihad.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't agree it's worthless - it's the only thing that makes the lack of choice somewhat bearable.

It didn't do it for me, unfortunately.

 

[Solik]

and creates ridiculous situations like town guards that could destroy the world with a snap of their fingers, but they still need you to click on the widget to save them

This is consistently overblown. Guards regularly die to daedra that I can defeat.

The monsters "keep up" with you when you're weak, as well. Meaning bullshit like arena champion, most feared fighter in all the land, fresh off the banana boat with hardly any skills!; and the most pathetic demons ever heard, able to be squished by a meagre mud-crab, if they ever fought; and absolutely nothing worth exploring to try and find, becuase you'll find the same shit you already have; and no thrill or exhileration or fear of the unkown because hey, they'll be just strong enough for you to beat; and of course, the fact that if you accidentally use non-combat skills as primaries, the entire world will soon be beyond you because their fighting ability is going up as your persuasion is.

This is also overblown (except in the Arena, I grant). To really notice this, you have to be actively trying to break the system. The early levels go by quickly due to the math used in skill increases. My mage is level 12 without even having finished the intro mage guild quests to get into the Arcane University. The lower-level daedra aren't as weak as you make them sound, either. Even clannfear runts can be quite dangerous to many PCs below level 8. Finally, it's very difficult to construct a character with no useful combat skills. I guess you could sit in a town and gain 6 straight levels using only persuasion (not mercantile because you'd run out of money), but again, you'd have to be purposefully trying to throw the game off to do it. Complaining about that is equivalent to complaining about how you can roll weak PCs in Baldur's Gate that have below-average stats and thus have difficulties getting anywhere.

I sincerely hope the modders can fix it, maybe in a few years I'll borrow someone's copy and play through the game I wanted that Bethesda had such vile contempt for.

It's been fixed for a couple weeks now. At least 5 different ways, depending on your preference. For the hardcore, there's a total randomizer that spawns monsters from levels 1-huge right from the beginning (and gives loot the same treatment). Then there's an assortment of more standard, balanced monster/loot mods that attack the issue from different, but similar, angles. There's even a few just for the arena. Choosing one that suits your tastes is not hard. The one I chose (by Sagerbliz) tends to spawn groups of weaker creatures instead of consistently stronger versions of the same stuff. Works great when you're attacked by a clannfear and four runts instead of a storm atronach, or five weak bandits in leather instead of one strong one in elven.

No incentive to level. Why level when its only going to make things harder, when traditionally leveling was seen as a way to make things easier.

I've always found it counter-intuitive that RPGs get easier as you progress in the first place. Nevertheless, this is also overblown. Because levelled lists are not tight, particularly in a downward fashion, getting stronger is indeed noticeable and rewarding.

 

[Crichton]

The appropriate way is to present the player with goals that cannot be accomplished at all until he has developed. If improving your character == bandits easier to kill (only), the game is already FUBAR. Meaningful consequences dictate that the player be able to accomplish something (win the game). RPG's are not streetfighter 2, with an infinite amount of equal-strength fighting available. They are supposed to put the player in a role where he can grow and influence the gameworld. Finding out that blind dumbfucks thrashing around randomly is no longer a challenge after you train to become a blackbelt is not a balance problem, it's realistic and rewarding improvement. I'm definitely thinking miles is right in stating that you just don't like RPGs.

5) Loss of "Epic Feel". Challenging the King of Worms should have been a scary ordeal. I should have had to check to make certian I had enough health potions and enough magic staves to make certain I could win. As it was, I didn't bother with any of that since I knew he'd fight at my level. Taking this further, I never felt that way about any encounter or place I could go. There was no place in the game for high level characters to go that they couldn't have gone when they were a lower level.

What point is there in forcing the player to grind to access the additional content? It doesn't give the game any more conent, it just alters the order, now instead of fighting the monsters whenever you like, you have to kill 20,000 xp worth of them to advance to the next quest (TIMESINK). As for enjoying using your UBARSWARDMAN to pwn a goblin, where's the fun? If your so much stronger than the enemies that you can't lose, why have the fight at all?

If all you ever want to do is fight the same difficulty fights over and over and over again, just play any action game (or Oblivion), but complaining that if you improve yourself then fights get easier is fucking retarded. Again it's not "things have been done poorly in the past, let's just scrap them", it should be "let's do it better".

If the fights are fun at the starting difficulty level, why make them easier as the game progresses? Will they be twice as fun if they're twice as easy? In that case KOTOR2 must have been the most fun you've had in years.

The fights should stay challenging (and hence fun) throughout the game. Practically all games do this, G2 stops throwing young wolves at you and moves up to wolves, then wargs, then frost wolves. Baldur's gate 2 goes from goblins to orcs to ogres to super orcs. If your character is going to get better, the enemies have to get better too.

Now the game can give you a choice of oppoents to fight, some of which are impossible at your current level (like finding wargs early on in G2), but it doesn't help "immersion" since you'll realise later that your character is 8x as strong as he used to be (that happens a lot in real life) and it doesn't provide interesting fights since you'll have leveled right past whatever you used to fight.

I've played through Arcanum six times. I usually hit the level cap about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through, but I keep playing. There are no more levels, there are no items I'm looking forward too, OH NOEZ THEREZ NO REWARRRD!!!!! But the dialog's still good, I still have choices to make and I still enjoy seeing my character interact with the world. Why are POWA-UPS or PHAT LEWT going to make me want to keep playing if the quests themselves aren't fun?

I hit the level cap in ToEE about 3/4 of the way through (before the elemental nodes), but again, I keep playing. Why? Because the game's fun. WTF do I care if fighting that monster's going to make my characters stronger? If the fight itself isn't fun than I'm not going to do it for the power-up unless I'm actually having trouble advancing.

 

[Atrokkus]

VD, the review was taken very well on our RPGplanet.ru boards. So far, no serious negativity. Quite the contrary, one guy even came up with his own mini-review, which basically mirrored your points, except for several new details.