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D&D Killed CRPGs

Drain

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I think that the problem with LOTR lies in motivations of the characters. Sauron/Saruman want teh power, Fellowship members are doing the quest because they are teh good, only Denethor II, the last Ruling Steward of Gondor, is more ambiguous (a good, but ambitious ruler driven desperate and insane after trying to spy on Sauron). This probably has to do with Tolkien's intention to create a mythological work rather than a fantasy novel, which requires different approach to characters.
Also, while Tolkien's races may not be good or bad per se, I don't remember any examples of decidedly "good" orcs/trolls/goblins or decidedly "bad" elfs/hobbits/dwarves.
Yes, shades of grey are present in Tolkien's works, but there are very few of them.
 

kingcomrade

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Chomsky? You pretentious commie fag.

Anyways, I'm agreeing with some of this. People like Todd Howard don't strike me as particularly creative or artistic (is he the one that shouts "boobies!" or was that our friend Pete?), and there do seem to be a lot of really good stuff coming out in terms of plot or storyline or even setting. Gaming has been corporatized because of the extremely high costs of production (hooray for 3d! Aren't we all glad we have our hydrodynamically morphotrophic texture-shadederized sewer water? It's the prettiest goddamn sewer water ever. Even to the point of say Doom 3, where we get a moving picture simulator rather than a game), of course, and people don't want to waste their money on faggy things like plot and story when graphics are what sells the game. I doubt many developers worry too much about whether their game will be a "classic." They worry about how much the game will sell in the first 2-3 weeks.

The only time setting gets consideration if it is part of the sell-package, like Rise of Legends, where a really awesome setting disguises a pretty mediocre game.
 

Gwendo

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Just imagine elves/dwarves/orcs/humans/goblins/etc are all different facets of the same humanoid race.
 

bryce777

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'I doubt many developers worry too much about whether their game will be a "classic."' They may not, but they should. You can only 'cash in' so far, and even Id's great reputation doesn't mean too much after doom 3 - people just remember the last game they played.



Back to DnD, I totally disagree here, too. When you look at the game systems created that don't use a license, they are all either really simplistic, just suck balls, or both. Without the DnD system, baldur's gate would be little different than any console game out there. Like oblivion.

The fallout system was just copied from another pencil and paper system, for that matter.
 

Twinfalls

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Speaking of interesting settings (and prompted by talk of Looking Glass in another thread), what did those who played this little gem think of it?
 

kris

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Drain said:
I think that the problem with LOTR lies in motivations of the characters. Sauron/Saruman want teh power, Fellowship members are doing the quest because they are teh good,

Or because they don't want themself and their family perishing. You don't need to be saint to protect your family and/or interests.
 

WouldBeCreator

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Going back to the D&D change in wizards -- I think that's actually a perceptive point, although the article you link to is extremely poorly written, researched, and reasoned. The main shift seems to be that pre-D&D wizards tended primarily to have powers of influence, divination, transmutation (-formation), and enchantment. Now, fantasy wizards skew heavily toward attack spells. How much of that is attributable to Jack Vance, whose magic system D&D adopted, I can't say; I find Vance hard to read. My recollection is that his wizards don't shoot fireballs either, though.

A big part of that, though, had to be game-playing, since influence, divination, transmutation, and enchantment just ain't as much fun as shooting magic missiles out of your fingertips.
 

kingcomrade

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The first books I read, way way back when I first started to get into reading, were a series of books written by Richard Knaack called the Dragonrealms, which were all about mages with silver streaks in their hair messing around with "ley lines" (whatever the hell those are) and power shields and explosions and stuff. Then I read another set of terrible (I didn't think so at the time) books by Mercedes Lackey about some queer (literally) with magic powers, and he spent his time between having gay sex and talking about his feelings causing explosions and starting fires. Then I read Darksword Trilogy by Tracy Hickman or Margeret Weis, which was set in a society based on magic rather than technology, and there was much fireballing and such. Those books were at least a little creative, though.

I remember when I finally got around to reading Lord of the Rings in Jr High, I kept wondering why Gandalf didn't just cast Fire Wall to stop the oncoming armies.
 

bryce777

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"he spent his time between having gay sex and talking about his feelings causing explosions and starting fires." That sounds awful.

The knaack books are OK but hardly anything special or memorable. The darksword was sort of interesting, but really they did the best with the dragonlance stuff.

Very little, if anything, compares well to tolkien, hough. Most of them just steal his shit, except do it very poorly.
 

sheek

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kingcomrade said:
The first books I read, way way back when I first started to get into reading, were a series of books written by Richard Knaack called the Dragonrealms, which were all about mages with silver streaks in their hair messing around with "ley lines" (whatever the hell those are) and power shields and explosions and stuff. Then I read another set of terrible (I didn't think so at the time) books by Mercedes Lackey about some queer (literally) with magic powers, and he spent his time between having gay sex and talking about his feelings causing explosions and starting fires. Then I read Darksword Trilogy by Tracy Hickman or Margeret Weis, which was set in a society based on magic rather than technology, and there was much fireballing and such. Those books were at least a little creative, though.

I remember when I finally got around to reading Lord of the Rings in Jr High, I kept wondering why Gandalf didn't just cast Fire Wall to stop the oncoming armies.

I started with Fantasy by reading the WarCraft game manuals, lol. I couldn't get enough. Then I remembered some dusty old book about midgets saving the world in my parents' book collection and I decided to give it a go.
 

WouldBeCreator

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The Darksword series seemed to be trying far, far too hard to be Serious and Dark. I guess I dug it, but it pandered far too much to teen angst. I'm glad that they totally sold the ending out by publishing that fourth book a little while ago.

I actually think that W&H's best series, by a wide margin, is the Desert Rose (is that the title? Rose of the Prophet?) series. It's just a fun swashbuckler with some enjoyable twists (although it has a gay character, so I dunno if it'll be KC's thing). The rest of their books dragged on far too long and were usually too self-important (like Death's Gate). None of their writing is worth reading after, like, 8th grade.

Anyone who hasn't read Guy Kay's Tigana, btw, is really missing out on fantasy.
 

kingcomrade

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Actually, I recently went back and read Rose of the Prophet, and I've got to say, I wasn't as impressed as I used to be. The first half of the first book is really just poorly written. I suppose it smooths out once you get used to the atmosphere. They aren't really supposed to be entirely serious books, though, and yeah I remember liking them a lot the first time I read them.
None of their writing is worth reading after, like, 8th grade.
Bingo. That's actually when I read Weis and Hickman's stuff, 8th grade.

By the way, who was the gay character? I don't remember there being one. I wouldn't care if the gay character was done well, unlike...can't remember his name, but the one in the Lackey books. Then again, most of the characters in those books were pretty shallow and lame.

-edit
I liked the Hobbit. I forced myself through Lord of the Rings in 7th Grade, I think, and I didn't enjoy them. It's too full of pedantic crap, stupid names that are too hard to remember like Giliwilithilimilitillylid.
 

OverrideB1

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I've read most of the books listed here -- although I'm going to have to check out Tigana as it's not one I've heard of before.

I was 'into' SF before I got into fantasy novels -- my reading pretty much started with Make Room! Make Room!, Inverted World and Asimov's robot-stories. From there I wandered up and down the SF authors list - Brunner, Watson, Ballard, Shaw, Gibson: you name them, I've probably read it.

Then someone dropped Gemmell's Legend off with me and -- even though I wasn't a 'swords & sorcery' fan (as I phrased it at the time), I gave it a read. I've been a fan of Gemmell's work ever since. Since then (1985-ish), I've read voraciously just about every SF and fantasy novel I can get my hands on.

And Tolkien? I read both The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings at school and wasn't overly impressed with either.
 

WouldBeCreator

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@ Override -- Tigana is a great "historical fantasy" set in something like Renaissance Italy. Kay's other books are pretty good, but Tigana is his best (by a decent margin). A Song for Arbonne (set in troubadorian France) is pretty great, too. Lions of al-Rassan (a reworking of El Cid in Reconquista Spain) is less good, but still decent, and is being made into a movie, apparently. His others aren't worth the time.

@ KC -- I think I read W&H from 6th to 9th grade. I'm sure if I read any of it now, it would be vomitously bad. I liked the whole way divine power and angels worked in the RoP series. Struck me that it would work really well in an MMORPG (at the time, a MUD) that feature players-as-gods as well as players-as-mortals.

@ all -- Concerning LOTR, I tried reading it in middle school and then in high school, and both times found it unreadably dull. I finally reread it in college as a junior and found it fantastic, although the poetry is self-indulgent and awful. It's hard because so much that was so original with Tolkien is now old hat, but I really do think it's a great series. The prose is very strong compared with most fantasy, the characters -- though a little lacking in many dimensions (primarily passion [not in the sexual sense, but just being passionate about anything], and romantic love) -- are pretty remarkable. The trouble is, when you read them young, you're used to hack n' slash fantasy and LOTR is awfully dull in comparison. But reading it as semi-serious literature, it's really pretty rewarding.[/u]
 

glasnost

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Drain said:
I think that the problem with LOTR lies in motivations of the characters. Sauron/Saruman want teh power, Fellowship members are doing the quest because they are teh good, only Denethor II, the last Ruling Steward of Gondor, is more ambiguous (a good, but ambitious ruler driven desperate and insane after trying to spy on Sauron). This probably has to do with Tolkien's intention to create a mythological work rather than a fantasy novel, which requires different approach to characters.

Saruman is coming from the same place as Denethor: they both believed 'the cause' against Sauron was doomed to fail. They were the two most immersed in their opponent's 'world', and in attempting to engage with him on an individual level they were crushed by a will far stronger and subtler than their own. Denethor was driven into madness and despair, taking the only real threat to Sauron's borders off the gameboard. Saruman threw in, not just for power I think, but out of fear, it was a question of how to survive (I think he was being perfectly frank in his plea to Gandalf to join up with him in this). Saruman is a coward, his treachery and the betrayal of his former allies in 'The West' and his new 'ally' in Sauron is a demonstration of this (hoping to have both sides break themselves against each other, as opposed to truly asserting himself as an independent power). Cowardice was the reason he defected; not necessarily out of lust for power, just fear and 'discerning the sign of the times'. Denethor, though of a lesser nature, was the stronger of the two. Denethor's defection would have meant the end of the war. It's a testament to his character that he didn't throw in with the cause whose victory he saw as inevitable. (he and his sons are my favorite people in the book).

While Sauron wants Order above all and he wants to be the Organizer, he's not entirely about 'power' either. The war is really the only path he believed was open, as he couldn't wrap his mind around the concept of mercy. Sauron gave none, and thus believed his 'enemies', including the Divine, would give him none. His failure to win would mean, in his estimation, his annihilation, something unconscionable to anyone. His actions aren't evil as much as they are inevitable.

It might make everything more coherent to view each character's actions not in light of 'good or evil' but in light of the question of 'What will you do when confronted with your own imminent destruction?' All the significant characters in the book answer that question in a slightly different way. I believe this leads to a clearer understanding of personal motivation, rather than imposing an artificial (and unnecessarily reductive) good/evil dichotomy on everyone.

Also, while Tolkien's races may not be good or bad per se, I don't remember any examples of decidedly "good" orcs/trolls/goblins or decidedly "bad" elfs/hobbits/dwarves.
Yes, shades of grey are present in Tolkien's works, but there are very few of them
First, looking for 'decidedly good/bad' examples of character is itself limiting the conclusions of your analysis, as you are still approaching the work as a reductionist.

The orcs we do hear from (as opposed to the faceless horde) are not uniform in their motivations. Some are just along for the ride, some are genuinely malevolent, some serve purely out of fear, not just of their Master, but of their enemies. In this they share Sauron's foremost delusion: that there could be no mercy or peace for them. In their case it's not entirely delusion, given the attitudes of say, individuals like Legolas and Gimli. We only see the 'on-camera' orcs, I'm sure there were defectors out there (there is a conversation between two orcs on this subject), but they would have had to keep a low profile, as an independent orc would have been marked for death by Sauron, citing treason, and by 'the West', citing orcness. And all of this is only true if they are a race as such; morality is not something for puppets.

There's also the character of Gollum, who is a pretty good example of a thoroughly conflicted and depraved, but by no means irredeemable, hobbit. His final decision wasn't inevitable, and his actions were largely not his own, his will was consumed by something much stronger than himself. The same thing happens to Frodo, ultimately consuming his will as well, the difference is that it was removed from the picture shortly after, giving Frodo the second chance that Gollum did not have (Frodo failed the quest, the victory of the Fellowship was due to chance/providence).

We don't see many elves in Lord of the Rings, so we don't get inside their heads. The exception being Galadriel, who's 'nobility' was not a foregone conclusion, it was something sorely tried. If this is a question of Tolkien's elves in general, and not just of those presented in LotR, then the Silmarillion is filled with elvish treachery, rape, murder, arrogance, etc. They don't 'fall' on a collective level, but there are many, many individuals who sink very, very low.

Distinctions aren't lacking, they're subtle. It's not so much that are too 'few' of them, it just that people tend to reduce what is there, and interpret in terms of an exterior 'good vs evil' worldview. This is just their perception, not reality, which is 'nondual' (as in Tolkien's cosmology).
 

WouldBeCreator

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I appreciate glasnost's interesting discussion and defense of LOTR. It's probably not an inaccurate one and is clearly one informed by the Silmarillion. Nevertheless, I think perhaps defenders of Tolkien protest too much on this point. The story is pretty plainly a gotterdamerung scenario, a conflict if not between "good" and "evil" then between "civilization" and "barbarism." The bestial orcs, the savage men (from the hills or from despotic lands), and downright monsters like cave trolls, the flying beats of the fell riders, and the like array themselves on one side. On the other is the literally moribund elves, the decadent, death-worshipping high men, the rustic horsemen, the artisan dwarves, and the simple hobbits. Civilization often leads to a form of corruption in Tolkien (and the death of society as a result), but it's pretty clear who's on what side and which side we should want to win. The people of the West stand for freedom and civilization; the people of the East for slavery and barbarism.
 

crufty

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In terms of D&D killing Rpgs, I have often wondered why we haven't seen a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles rpg.

I think 3D FPS games have really been the rpg killer, truth be told.
 

bryce777

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Glasnost, that is a very good analysis and good food for thought. I did find it interesting that sauron was basically incapable of understanding til too late someone would give up the ring and its chance to defeat him.
 

bryce777

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Oh, and one thing people don't keep in mind is that RPG systems that don't suck are are to develop. That is why you see a lot of ripoffs - look at the ones that don't. Aside from darklands and wizardry, they all suck or at best are mediocre.
 

Keldryn

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Twinfalls said:
Speaking of interesting settings (and prompted by talk of Looking Glass in another thread), what did those who played this little gem think of it?

Martian Dreams was a great game, and it was a breath of fresh air from the usual traditional fantasy. So was The Savage Empire, for that matter.

Martian Dreams was pretty light on combat and the role of character advancement, IIRC. Could almost be considered an "Adventure" game by some folks. My only complaints about the game are that the landscape was utterly dull and repetitive, consisting almost entirely of red sand and rock tiles. Yes, that's probably accurate as to how the surface of Mars looks, but it makes for very dull exploration. A more modern engine would probably allow for a more varied look to the landscape; I'm thinking along the lines of Geonosis in Attack of the Clones. Later in the game, you could use the canals for fast travel between set locations, but there was still a lot of backtracking through boring red flatlands. I remember it being fairly easy to get lost, as there weren't a lot of distinctive landmarks.

Still a classic game though.
 

Keldryn

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bryce777 said:
Back to DnD, I totally disagree here, too. When you look at the game systems created that don't use a license, they are all either really simplistic, just suck balls, or both. Without the DnD system, baldur's gate would be little different than any console game out there. Like oblivion.

I can't agree with you. I think that most D&D licenced games are held back by the D&D rules. I never liked the AD&D rules as written, 1st or 2nd Edition. As a DM, I'd always have to tweak the rules to make it mroe to my satisfaction. Think back to the old "Gold Box" games. There was little point in making a non-human character in your party, other than a thief, because they were generally limited to a maximum level of 5-10, depending on the race/class combo. That was never a good way to balance the extra abilities that non-humans have at first level, because those abilities don't really matter that much once you hit the middle levels.

The 3rd Edition rules have come a long way, and I like them just fine for around-the-table gaming. But I still don't really care for them in a CRPG. The x number of spells per day, only regained by resting mechanic really isn't suited for CRPGs, especially at low levels.

The fallout system was just copied from another pencil and paper system, for that matter.

Not as far as I know. Fallout was originally going to be using the GURPS licence, but when that deal fell apart, Black Isle created the SPECIAL system. Certainly, it was influenced by other RPG systems, but I don't think it was a direct copy of any one system.

The SPECIAL system is definitely one of my favorites. It allows for a lot of customization and different character builds without forcing you into a certain advancement path from the beginning. With class-based systems, you often don't have much choice other than starting over if you want to change the way your character is developing.
 

DemonKing

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Rather than blaming D&D for ruining CRPGs maybe we should think how many CRPGs there would be *without* D&D?

Also, love it or hate it, there is a bigger audience for traditional "Swords & Sorcery" fantasy set in a Middle-Earthesque type world then there is for anything more original or outlandish - D&D tried to branch out in the mid-90s with Planescape, Dark Sun etc and all it got them was bankrupt and gobbled up by Wizards of the Coast (who made all their money on a traditional high-fantasy themed card game).

It's a shame, but in the end companies that make these products (and CRPGs) are trying to make a profit, so you can't really blame them for providing what the majority of their audience wants.
 

glasnost

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bryce777 said:
I did find it interesting that sauron was basically incapable of understanding til too late someone would give up the ring and its chance to defeat him.
Yeah, which is why someone like Gandalf, while no match for him in any contest, could still strike fear in Sauron, because he was so alien in his outlook. Sauron could no longer fathom anything that didn't reason and operate as he did, he was sinking into the same self-delusion that Melkor/Morgoth did. It took him a lot longer, three 'ages' to get to that point, which is another testament to him being 'nobler' than his master, who had lost it completely, perhaps even before the universe came into being.

It's probably because he *had* a master that he lasted that long to begin with. He was able to acknowledge and even admire someone greater than himself, meaning pride and the occlusion that results from it could never wholly dominate him. Left on his own, delusion ran rampant, and he lost a great deal of his sharpness, becoming less and less the masterful strategist and implementor (the one who conceived of orcs, and engineered the destruction of Numenor from within), and more and more solely a (fearful) tyrant and warchief, just what Morgoth was in his last days.

Sauron is kind of a tragic figure, even, but it's not really what the book is about. Tolkien did acknowledge it...he speculated a bit more on 'philosophical' questions in his world as he got older and the legends themselves 'matured'.
 

bryce777

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Keldryn said:
bryce777 said:
Back to DnD, I totally disagree here, too. When you look at the game systems created that don't use a license, they are all either really simplistic, just suck balls, or both. Without the DnD system, baldur's gate would be little different than any console game out there. Like oblivion.

I can't agree with you. I think that most D&D licenced games are held back by the D&D rules. I never liked the AD&D rules as written, 1st or 2nd Edition. As a DM, I'd always have to tweak the rules to make it mroe to my satisfaction. Think back to the old "Gold Box" games. There was little point in making a non-human character in your party, other than a thief, because they were generally limited to a maximum level of 5-10, depending on the race/class combo. That was never a good way to balance the extra abilities that non-humans have at first level, because those abilities don't really matter that much once you hit the middle levels.

The 3rd Edition rules have come a long way, and I like them just fine for around-the-table gaming. But I still don't really care for them in a CRPG. The x number of spells per day, only regained by resting mechanic really isn't suited for CRPGs, especially at low levels.

The fallout system was just copied from another pencil and paper system, for that matter.

Not as far as I know. Fallout was originally going to be using the GURPS licence, but when that deal fell apart, Black Isle created the SPECIAL system. Certainly, it was influenced by other RPG systems, but I don't think it was a direct copy of any one system.

The SPECIAL system is definitely one of my favorites. It allows for a lot of customization and different character builds without forcing you into a certain advancement path from the beginning. With class-based systems, you often don't have much choice other than starting over if you want to change the way your character is developing.

Well, back then tenth level was pretty high. Yeah there was some goofiness, but you also had a lot more complexity. Whereas most of the other systems like might and magic or daggerfall, just were not very complex or interesting.
 

Xi

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Am I the only one that liked the Origional D&D ruleset for its simplicity?

It seems like the further the ruleset has progressed the harder it is to actually utilize everything or to even make sense of most of it.

It's a dying trend because it's only catering to the extremist hardcore. Hell, even the regular hardcore folks have a hard time swallowing some of that shit.

It's like modern video games are either lost in mechanical depth lacking any real gameplay or far too simplistic in mechanic pandering to the mainstream.

Can't we have some middle ground? The problem with DnD and Tolkien is that we have been choking on that crap for so long(no offense - great stuff but way over done) that everything else seems far too alien to be acceptable.

If anything DnD has killed creativity. I welcome new rulesets/lore.
 

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