Information Tom Hall and Brenda Brathwaite Kickstart Turn-based Oldschool CRPG

[Mary Sue Leigh]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGl0enZ4dGpoSlM1d2ZGS1RaWF9JcHc6MQ

I'll write: It needs a BUTTON AWESOME. Clearly. You press the button, something AWESOME happens.

I hope BW hasn't got this idea copyrighted or anything though..

 

[kaizoku]

Why should we do anything?

It is hilariously collapsing on it own by it's self just fine.

Well... I see it like this, the game will likely be a clusterfuck of shit, however there is a small chance it's something half decent, maybe even enjoyable.

So it won't do harm to spend 30 seconds giving them feedback on what you want the game to be.

The irony of this is that there have been several codexers patrolling or trying to incline W2 an PE on their forums, while I suspect their devs to be more averse to changing their mind based on fans wants.
And now that some OLD RPG DEVS seem to be open to feedback to make the game pledgers want (like hired guns)... nobody cares. (well, they are to blame, their pitch video was complete shit, and the story on the 2nd update seems to have been written under alcohol influence under 5 minutes)

Don't get me wrong, it's likely going to be shit... but yeah, if there is a chance... (yeah, really optimistic of me) I don't see that much harm in sprinkling it with some magic powder of OLD RPGs.

It's a chance to answer one of the most profound questions... What is an OLD RPG?!

 

[Dorateen]

There is already a good classic blobber out now.

Demise: Ascension?

 

[Jaesun]

Why should we do anything?

It is hilariously collapsing on it own by it's self just fine.

Well... I see it like this, the game will likely be a clusterfuck of shit, however there is a small chance it's something half decent, maybe even enjoyable.

So it won't do harm to spend 30 seconds giving them feedback on what you want the game to be.

The irony of this is that there have been several codexers patrolling or trying to incline W2 an PE on their forums, while I suspect their devs to be more averse to changing their mind based on fans wants.
And now that some OLD RPG DEVS seem to be open to feedback to make the game pledgers want (like hired guns)... nobody cares. (well, they are to blame, their pitch video was complete shit, and the story on the 2nd update seems to have been written under alcohol influence under 5 minutes)

Don't get me wrong, it's likely going to be shit... but yeah, if there is a chance... (yeah, really optimistic of me) I don't see that much harm in sprinkling it with some magic powder of OLD RPGs.

It's a chance to answer one of the most profound questions... What is an OLD RPG?!

THAT is their job on KS. It's just like a pitch to a Publisher. This horrible train wreck is hysterical. First they do not do a proper pitch. Then the finally provide some BASIC info, and now HELP US MAKE RPG! ALL of that should have been done at the start. They went on the arrogant assumption that they are OMG FAMUS OLD SCHOOL DEVELOPER! GIVE US MONEY WE MAKER GAME FOR YOU!

Nothing is giving me one bit of interest in supporting them, in giving me the confidence they can deliver said game.

WOULD a properly well done KS with a wealth of information, as well as possibly a prototype, (because based on the crap flash games they currently have been making don't really inspire me with much hope) by these 2 be possibly a good thing? Yes.

They honestly should cancel it and try again. IMHO.

There is already a good classic blobber out now.

Demise: Ascension?

Nope.
http://www.olderbytes.com/

 

[Dorateen]

There is already a good classic blobber out now.

Demise: Ascension?

Nope.
http://www.olderbytes.com/

Oh, yes, Underworld, of course. I played that last December well before the Gold release. I was a big supporter of Charles even then. Looking forward to the sequel.

That's why it would be a welcome surprise to see this RPG project get itself right. Would be nice to have another party-centric exploration tunred-based combat title, if they can stay true to their bullet-point design objectives.

 

[l3loodAngel]

1. I never hear that someone even tried... There may be at least 4 possible reasons for not getting a loan.
a) Devs didn't try.
b) They tried, but didn't get one, because banks don't like gaming business.
c) They don't want to risk their personal wealth.
d) They tried, but their plan was shit.

So you honestly think that no one who wants to make a video game has ever tried to get a loan from a bank? No point in arguing with you further if you honestly believe that. If you want to live in a fantasy land where every developer who has ever lived is too incompetent to have had that idea feel free. By the way the answer is B. That's what I have been saying is the answer to your original question of why developers don't just get loans from banks.

And you base this assumption on what? Do you have information that people went with really good business plan's, but where rejected, because FUCK YOU!?

Plumbers... You can train a man in a month to be a plumber, trying doing that to a surgeon, M.d., programmer, architect, engineer, lawyer or a professor.

1. I detect a certain amount of elitism and detesting of the working classes coming from you. 2. Not the best opinion to have come the revolution lest you find your back against the wall. Bourgeoisie scum.

3. Why can plumbers make good money if their job is so easy a trained monkey can do it? There is more to plumbing than turning a wrench my friend.

4. But that wasn't even the point. The point was that skilled labor and manual labor have specific definitions and if you want to talk down to someone as if you are explaining things to them you had better make sure the terms you are using are being used correctly. If you don't you wind up looking like a dumbass.

1. Working class my ass. In UK a plumber earns up to £ 80 per hour while M.D earns £ 15 per hour. To become a doctor you need to be strait A student, have a clean record and study for many years. My grandmother used to say, that if a doctor has less 10 years of experience, he still confuses the diseases he is seeing with those that he has seen. Not to mention that about 400 doctors commit suicide due to lawsuits in the USA. You don't hear that kind of shit about the plumbers do you? Last time I heard they were just breeding.

2. Oh, Yes. The revolution. The train of progress. There is an old russian (I am not Russian though) saying about this. First comes the turmoil, then depression, then beating of the innocent and awarding of those unrelated to the matter.

3. Of course there is! You have to carry a tube to the third floor and do the honorary first flush, to check if it works.

4. The last time when I heard this argument I was in Uni, killing my lecturer in an argument.

Let's reiterate my main point again since it seems to bother you when I do. Sure if video game companies could get a several million dollar loan from banks that would be a much better option than getting funding from a publisher. All your points trying to state how that way is better for the developer are pointless since I'm not arguing against that. Banks don't like to give out business loans to video games. What is the proof that they don't? My question that I asked in my previous post.

Since when does a question count as a proof? Why not use a statement?

If Getting a loan through a bank is such a good option why don't developers do that?

If we would believe you it is because:

a) Devs didn't try. - If you believe that you are retarded.

b) They tried, but didn't get one, because banks don't like gaming business. - ding ding ding, we have a winner. They don't like it because video game are risky. That is the entire point I am arguing. You still haven't given anything to counter this basic point. All you've said to try and counter that is that we shouldn't worry about the risk since economist don't entirely agree on how to figure it out and it is hard to do well. Since if we can't have an exact formula for figuring something our that works 100% of the time we shouldn't even let stuff like that be factors in our decision making. And for some reason banks wouldn't worry about the risk either and should be able to give a loan to someone as long as they show a psychological commitment to a project, in the form of putting up their house as collateral.

c) They don't want to risk their personal wealth. - I know. Those damn selfish game developers. They are willing to sink their life savings and stake their future livelihoods on starting new game development studios but if they had only shown the banks that they were serious they could have gotten those loans.

d) They tried, but their plan was shit. - Damn lazy developers. If only they had experience in business matters and creating business plans. If only men like Feargus Urquhart and Brian Fargo had the business experience to be capable of laying out a solid business plan to these banks they could have gotten those loans.

If you want to prove I am wrong just prove that making a game isn't a risky proposal. My entire argument falls apart and then I guess we have to find another explanation for why it doesn't happen. Something like all game developers are too dumb too think of the idea and too incompetent to put together a business plan that the banks find acceptable.

You can continue to talk some more about how publishers are bad if you want but it isn't really relevant to the point I am making.

a) That's one of the possibilities. I have never heard that devs went to the bank.
b) You are not arguing, you are stating. From the data produced you can clearly see that game publishing is a business like any other. They get positive returns even in the harshest of environments. To argue something would mean to present some sort of proof to back your words. Do you know even the factors that determine the loan approval? Here read this:
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/need-business-loan-1908.html . Now if you would look at consolidated statement of operations of EA, you would see that their interest expense was 5 million dollars. That means that they finance everything with their own cash and that means that they generate SHITLOAD of it. How many companies do you know that CAN do that. Look through other industries and be amazed at how much people spend at interest expense. That's exactly 0.5% of the quarterly revenue. With Net income of 200 million, that is called not utilizing cheap debt as a tax shield.
c)...
d) Correct me if am wrong, but BF was the only one who had a really good KS from what I have seen. The question is would have he gotten the loan from the bank? My guess is that YES! 1. He has a company that generates revenue. check
2. capital. check
3. Collateral. check
4. Personal wealth to guarantee with. check
5. Credit rating. check
6. Ability to plan. check

FU was really unprepared and is lagging behind even though IE games were a bit more popular than WL.They managed to alienate their core audience and not draw other crowd (the player house goal, removing Linux goal in the middle of fund raiser, DA combat and etc.). Updates are too frequent and you get tired following all the news flow. That is poor planning and they are not very good at making shit up as they go.

Now Brenda and Tom. I would guess that no. They don't have the slightest idea what the fuck they are doing. We are making an old school game, but we will make it how you want it! WTF? We will add mobile support and 2 games for the price of one, because our core audience will like it! We will add endorsements from designer of WOW, creator of Minecraft, designer of slow year & cow clicker and of course the designer of Oblivion and FO3. That will help us get the money! Then we will have BRENDA to advertise it. Brenda? I am not gay, but I would better fuck TC than Brenda. Now we will add a map with two planets and a moon route for a stretch goal of planetary travel. Let's have an old school cosmonauts.
Would they have a chance to get a loan? Haha, WOW.

I still want to know why I am Swedish.

Because you are ignorant and your posts reek with socialism. You lump people who are creators, are underpaid and work overtime a lot to get their job done with people who are good a showing their vertical smile and are doing more than turning the wrench. That speaks volumes.

 

[theSavant]

I see black. Pitch black. Even worse than I expected: the 3rd day is less than 25 k pledged...

Maybe it'd be better if they just cancel their project, take a full months off, and then come back with 1 gorgeous oldschool rpg concept.

 

[Digital Monocle]

This is looking like Romero's failure for Daikatana all over again... watch them change the engines several times and gimp the game to the max

 

[IDtenT]

There is already a good classic blobber out now.

Demise: Ascension?

Nope.
http://www.olderbytes.com/

$20 vs $1mil budget. This is not to say that their game will be better, just that it will have more polished assets. In that way it has no competition.

 

[suejak]

This just seems like such a gongshow. Romero's underachieving girlfriend and Tom Hall, perpetual gimp, want to make an Oldsckool RPG but don't convey what that means in the slighest, hoping that their questionable name recognition will pull them through to a million dollars. And if you give EVEN MORE than a million dollars, that will not go into making their game better; it will instead mean that they split the money and make TWO games. Absurd.

 

[Charles-cgr]

http://pc.mobygames.com/game/windows/wizardry-8/credits

Game Design                  Brenda Brathwaite, Linda Currie, Alex Meduna, Charles Miles
Story                        Brenda Brathwaite
NPC Scripting & Dialogue    Brenda Brathwaite
PC Dialogue & Writing        Brenda Brathwaite, Charles Miles
Game Manual                  Brenda Brathwaite, Charles Miles

I just grabbed my Wizardry 8 manual, and that is the exact same info in there.

To be fair with Cleve, she is listed in "Game Design". That's a few steps beyond just editing the manuals. NPC scripting means she actually coded. And she's the only one referenced for the story. I can see how she might have pushed someone else's concept hard enough that it kinda sort of became her own.

At least PE was clear on the references. They're saying it could be Wizardry inspired, or top-down or whatever the loudest voices ask for (I might have missed an update that clarifies, I'm not following this too closely).

EDIT again. Forget the tweet.

 

[Roguey]

NPC scripting means she actually coded.

If I'm remembering correctly, she actually only started learning how to code not too long ago (maybe last year I think? Edit: 2010). She was tweeting about making her first basic RPG, Josh Sawyer tweeted in agreement about how coding combat is a lot more fun/interesting than inventory. Yay scripting versus coding semantics.

 

[LordDenton]

Let's see:

- Developers are Mac users
- Game will be out on iPhones and iPads
- Buy one RPG, get one RPG free!

This is a definite no!

 

[xilo3z]

[b) They tried, but didn't get one, because banks don't like gaming business. - ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Coming in late so I'm sort of off on the issue - is it one side arguing that more companies should grab loans and the other arguing that no bank gives loans to gaming companies? If so...

I truly believe it has nothing to do with "gaming" business as at all. Most bank to business loans don't even do any sort of risk calculations. Literally banking 101 - the 5 C's of credit and CAMELS. If you meet all of those you will be a banks client, no if ands or buts. You will be their client on the spot and they will love you forever.

Capital, Asset Quality, Management, Earnings and Liability Management. On the other side you have Cash Flows, Collateral, Capital (again! key one.), Character and (economic) Conditions. Think about how many indie studios actually have all of those. Very few. Its not because banks hate the gaming industry or think they are too risky, its just the majority of small gaming business are not built with a strong back bone through financial literacy. Now think about how many established, or maybe borderline indie studios have that. Example - inXile certainly does. Every single one literally (except economic conditions obviously)! Think of your average indie team...Hell - Team Meat before Super Meat Boy... not so much. In fact not even close. You could argue that the gaming business just doesn't measure up to the standards of CAMELS and C's and banks need a new rating model, but many gaming companies, even smaller ones meet those measures.

Someone brought up CAPM, I'm not even sure banks would even use such a model for coming up with interest payments/loan valuation. In the equity analyst field which is what I'm in we solely use CAPM to generate one of many (insignificant) RoRs to discount at. You could use it in theory for other assets then just securities, but mannyy other variables start going into play and I believe banks use models such as a Cost-Plus pricing which is just costs of loan plus the rate at which the bank values current default at and the banks current profit margin or Price-Leader model which is just a prime rate plus again the banks set default rate and a time value rate.

|3lood, seems you have a background in finance as well? Just a comment- don't you find it much more rewarding helping/leading others to see a different prospective, rather than yelling at them and trying to throw them into that prospective with the subtly of a brick to the head?

Also - If you think game companies cant get money from banks just think of how much Zynga was able to grab.

 

[mugarod]

$2.1M - Mobile Support. Take the experience with you. At this level, we'll add in mobile support, bringing the game to iOS.

I didnt even bother watching a video

 

[Burning Bridges]

They need at least 30K per day to get 1.000.000

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/lootdrop/an-old-school-rpg-by-brenda-brathwaite-and-tom-hal

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

They need at least 30K per day to get 1.000.000

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/lootdrop/an-old-school-rpg-by-brenda-brathwaite-and-tom-hal

I wish I could say I was enjoying this like a good piece of fried chicken. Part of me feels sorry for Brenda, seriously. It's kind of tragic and deranged. I don't see how a company with all those employees and staff and resources and recommendations and testimonials and solipsist self-referential logic could not concentrate on what was important - building a decent Kickstarter pitch.

Were they so desperate this was the best they could do? Why not wait a month and see if you could put some sample gameplay together in a demo?

Nope, part of me feels sorry for Brenda and I don't really care for anybody who came out of the burning crater called Sir-Tech. There's a certain air of dementia in that video, like they are on the verge of being evicted from their offices or something. It could have been a Saturday Night Live parody piece on Kickstarter. Not even a title?

There's a lot of claims they are making about the roles they played in other games projects that is technically criminal. I knew Brenda had not had a major part in the design of W6 or W7 and only wrote some copy for ROA. I don't know about Tom Hall but Brenda is making some claims in that video that are simply not documentable and patently false. I know that some of the guys that worked on Realms of Arkania could probably sue her for fraud if she is claiming she had anything to do with those games.

If Brenda created Wizardry then Steven Ballmer created Microsoft.

 

[IDtenT]

Just go back and redo the kickstarter in the future.

I still feel there is a lot of potential left.

 

[Excommunicator]

I'm surprised at how much the pledges have dropped on this one. Yes, they did a really bad job but as far as I'm concerned any pitch which doesn't have a gameplay video and most of the basic design and setting already written up falls short of where they should be. Apart from the attempt at mocking themselves with the old-school thing I don't think they did anything worse than the likes of PE.

They need to cancel it, go away for a month at least (wait until Eternity finishes) and redo the pitch. My interest is pretty much gone now anyway just based on that stupid sci-fi fantasy double-world idea. Seems really badly thought out. Still, I think the people behind this pitch definitely have the potential to do something really good, but they obviously don't have any skills when it comes to marketing and project management, so it doesn't bode well.

 

[Mother Russia]

Where the fuck is the link to the k-starter and why isn't it in the OP?

 

[theSavant]

Yeah, despite I dislike the presentation of OldSchoolRPG, a part of me is angry about the fact, that people pledged so easily when PE was announced. I mean they just openend their hands and the whole world pledged. I wished PE had to elaborate a more sophisticate concept as well, because - as a matter of fact - their kickstarter pitch sucked too.

Maybe the masses just likes classic isometric RPGs more than classic first person RPGs? Generation Diablo, generation console players (1st person view vanished more and more with the introduction of consoles).

I'm afraid if the kickstarter fails, they completely give up the 1st person party gameplay and keep on doing facebook games... and everyone else who planned to create games alike will give up as well with the words "if they didn't succeed with this type of gameplay - how can we ...? ", which results therein, that no one will ever make a game like Wizardry 8 anymore...

 

[l3loodAngel]

Capital, Asset Quality, Management, Earnings and Liability Management. On the other side you have Cash Flows, Collateral, Capital (again! key one.), Character and (economic) Conditions. Think about how many indie studios actually have all of those. Very few. Its not because banks hate the gaming industry or think they are too risky, its just the majority of small gaming business are not built with a strong back bone through financial literacy. Now think about how many established, or maybe borderline indie studios have that. Example - inXile certainly does. Every single one literally (except economic conditions obviously)! Think of your average indie team...Hell - Team Meat before Super Meat Boy... not so much. In fact not even close. You could argue that the gaming business just doesn't measure up to the standards of CAMELS and C's and banks need a new rating model, but many gaming companies, even smaller ones meet those measures.

From Camel:
I am actually not sure about capital adequacy as publishers structure their contracts in such way, that you will always be doing contract work. Efficiently making the devs their slaves as I have never heard that any of the Devs started going solo I the last 14 years. That's why I stressed the importance of personal guarantee.
The second thing where most of gaming would fail is planning. If you would come to a bank meeting without the slightest idea of what you are doing, you would have no chance of getting the loan, if the kickstarter pitches could be an indication. If they can't sell shit to their target audience, how will they sell it to the suits?

1. Someone brought up CAPM, I'm not even sure banks would even use such a model for coming up with interest payments/loan valuation. 2. In the equity analyst field which is what I'm in we solely use CAPM to generate one of many (insignificant) RoRs to discount at. You could use it in theory for other assets then just securities, but mannyy other variables start going into play and I believe banks use models such as a 3. Cost-Plus pricing which is just costs of loan plus the rate at which the bank values current default at and the banks current profit margin or Price-Leader model which is just a prime rate plus again the banks set default rate and a time value rate.

1. It was actually for purpose of showing that the risk is a subjective, rather than an objective matter and it can't be quantified.
2. Exactly, because CAPM fails reality check on so many occasions. If model is based on risk free rate that is artificially lowered through monetary policy as an indication of discount rate, it's hard to get relevant results. Were I used work we used fundamentals and news for determining stock price, although not in the gaming industry. That gives you a smaller universe, but a more profitable one.
3. Yes, but it's really hard to use something as an example that cannot be directly observed. As the default rate that banks use varies from industry to industry and even then there are qualitative measures. A small upstart retailer should be at odds of getting the loan if his shop is in a close proximity to the big center, but should be able to get the loan cheaper if it's the only retailer in a big radius. So their rate should be different, but that's where the selling of an idea comes in. Banks of course don't share their stats and US doesn't publish bankruptcies by sector. So I could not show that there are riskier businesses than game development or publishing.

|3lood, seems you have a background in finance as well? Just a comment- don't you find it much more rewarding helping/leading others to see a different prospective, rather than yelling at them and trying to throw them into that prospective with the subtly of a brick to the head?

I wasn't yelling, but I really hate when people repeat stuff in arguments, without any proof or justification.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Is it possible for studios that run 2 to 3 teams at a time(like Obsidian) to be able to get loans to cover the development of 1 team while the others are publisher funded? I would think that might be something that is feasible.

It depends on their finances and on the size of the loan. Would they get $ 60 million for next gen development? Probably not. Would they get 2-3 million, I think yes.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I think Tom Hall could really do something interesting, based on Anachronox and some of his other games. I would donate to a Kickstarter by him but it would need a good pitch, a title, some concept work and some kind of demo gameplay.

It would also help if he dropped Brenda and Romero completely off the marquee. They are boat anchors with nothing like the credibility he has.

Truth be told, Tom Hall has done some good stuff going all the way back to Commander Keen. I think of him as one of the elders but I don't know why he would be convinced teaming up with Brenda was a good idea.

I'm sure he also knows better than to launch a Kickstart with nothing but a catchphrase as a foundation like "Old School RPG." I'm certain he is a smarter man than that. The whole thing must have been misrepresented to him.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Yeah, despite I dislike the presentation of OldSchoolRPG, a part of me is angry about the fact, that people pledged so easily when PE was announced. I mean they just openend their hands and the whole world pledged. I wished PE had to elaborate a more sophisticate concept as well, because - as a matter of fact - their kickstarter pitch sucked too.

Maybe the masses just likes classic isometric RPGs more than classic first person RPGs? Generation Diablo, generation console players (1st person view vanished more and more with the introduction of consoles).

I disagree. It is true Obsidian didn't have much to show at first either. But at least their pitch video was halfway professional, they gave you a broad idea in which direction they were heading (keyword: IE-spiritual successor in classic D&D like fantasy setting) AND they released a lot of info subsequently in their updates. Based on Obsidians previous work and the heavy Infinity Engine references, you pretty much know what kind of game you can expect.

I don't even know how to describe the "pitch video" that Tom and Brenda have come up with. Name recognition is all fine, but the video basicly shows two demented clowns making lame-ass jokes and going on about how they want to make some sort of old-school rpg...or something if you just give them the monies. They probably mentioned "oldschool" literally a hundred times in their 4 minute video, yet in the end you have absolutely NO idea what kind of game to expect. Even worse, there is a strong impression that Tom and Brenda don't know either.
Their whole kickstarter pledge is honestly one of the dumbest and laziest efforts I have seen, maybe only rivaled by the "crowdsourced tactical shooter" scam. Like someone else mentioned, it looks like a parody of the whole kickstarter thing.

Now there's no question that top-down, IE-stlye RPGs are more popular with the modern gaming crowd. However, Tom and Brenda could have still raised considerable amounts of money for a Wizardry-clone or a game akin to Anachronox, if only their kickstarter campaign wasn't a total trainwreck.