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[Poll] How do you play games w/ skill trees and non transparent mechanics ? Blind or spoiled?

How do you play games w/ skill trees and non transparent mechanics ?

  • I play blind, accepting that some guesswork will be involved.

    Votes: 47 49.0%
  • I look for mechanical spoilers but avoid reading other people's builds.

    Votes: 40 41.7%
  • I copy builds from the internet.

    Votes: 5 5.2%
  • I don't play games with skill trees, at least not for long.

    Votes: 4 4.2%

  • Total voters
    96
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I just copy a good build. There is usually a lot of research and math supporting the top builds, more than I could be arsed to do by myself.

Still, you're playing with someone else's character, which is kinda boring I think. It's like you have all the ingredients to make delicious pizza, but you walk to the market and buy a frozen one instead. It's guaranteed to taste like pizza sure, but it lacks heart. It lacks soul. If it sang the blues, you wouldn't listen.
 
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Excidium

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I just copy a good build. There is usually a lot of research and math supporting the top builds, more than I could be arsed to do by myself.

Still, you're playing with someone else's character, which is kinda boring I think. It's like you have all the ingredients to make delicious pizza, but you walk to the market and buy a frozen one instead. It's guaranteed to taste like pizza sure, but it lacks heart. It lacks soul. If it sang the blues, you wouldn't listen.
:lol:

MMOs tend to favor cookie-cutter build so it doesn't really matter.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
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I always start out with a resolution to look up the mechanical info but not copy a build. But once I've looked up all the relevant mechanical information, I've probably usually read many posts with people's builds in them. When I go to create my own super unique build, it often ends up extremely close to one of the builds I've just read about, sufficiently close that it can be called a copy or at least a very derivative knock off.

Then I ask myself; what is the point of playing a single player game, copying someone else's build and spending 40 hours developing a character who can only do 2-4 things anyway. I usually conclude that there is really no point.
 

GordonHalfman

Scholar
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I always start out with a resolution to look up the mechanical info but not copy a build. But once I've looked up all the relevant mechanical information, I've probably usually read many posts with people's builds in them. When I go to create my own super unique build, it often ends up extremely close to one of the builds I've just read about, sufficiently close that it can be called a copy or at least a very derivative knock off.

Then I ask myself; what is the point of playing a single player game, copying someone else's build and spending 40 hours developing a character who can only do 2-4 things anyway. I usually conclude that there is really no point.

Sorry for the personal question, but do happen you actually... like RPGs? At all? Or are you aiming for some kind of RPG codex caricature, "we've analysed games so much we hate them but still can't stop talking about them"?
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
22,500
I play game at first without looking into hints and accept all mistakes. The second playing, if that happens is with looking at guide books to find what I missed. Some RPGs/VNs have rather brutal requirements for ultimate endings and you might screw up easily.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
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Sorry for the personal question, but do happen you actually... like RPGs? At all? Or are you aiming for some kind of RPG codex caricature, "we've analysed games so much we hate them but still can't stop talking about them"?

Well, I really enjoy computer simulations of Dungeons and Dragons. And I like tactical/strategy games with RPG elements far, far more than I like tactical/strategy games without RPG elements.

But I do feel that improperly used RPG elements can detract from a game. Skill trees without respecs would be a prime example. In MMORPGs, where it actually matters, everyone just copies the best builds off the internet and/or respecs a lot (I respec'd over 100 times in WOW for PVP purposes and I quit that game early on). In single player you either get spoilers off the internet (the majority of voters did this), play on an easy difficulty where it doesn't matter or play on a hard difficulty and risk getting stuck due to poorly balanced and documented mechanics. I'd prefer it if this kind of mechanic went away, but I can see why they use it; the gameplay of something like Torchlight 2 is extremely shallow once you take away the quest for the perfect build. Many builds use less than 4 abilities the whole game.
 

Statik

Educated
Joined
Sep 29, 2012
Messages
83
I'm not a power gamer or anything and I'm not looking for the ultimate build of epic ass-kicking. However, balancing is teh hardz for a lot of developers and I have had bad experiences with skills that sound good in theory, but are useless in actual gameplay, so I tend to look for some information about mechanics to avoid horribly broken builds.
 

GordonHalfman

Scholar
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
119
Sorry for the personal question, but do happen you actually... like RPGs? At all? Or are you aiming for some kind of RPG codex caricature, "we've analysed games so much we hate them but still can't stop talking about them"?

Well, I really enjoy computer simulations of Dungeons and Dragons. And I like tactical/strategy games with RPG elements far, far more than I like tactical/strategy games without RPG elements.

But I do feel that improperly used RPG elements can detract from a game. Skill trees without respecs would be a prime example. In MMORPGs, where it actually matters, everyone just copies the best builds off the internet and/or respecs a lot (I respec'd over 100 times in WOW for PVP purposes and I quit that game early on). In single player you either get spoilers off the internet (the majority of voters did this), play on an easy difficulty where it doesn't matter or play on a hard difficulty and risk getting stuck due to poorly balanced and documented mechanics. I'd prefer it if this kind of mechanic went away, but I can see why they use it; the gameplay of something like Torchlight 2 is extremely shallow once you take away the quest for the perfect build. Many builds use less than 4 abilities the whole game.

I agree with that actually. If character building is the main or only source of challenge and interesting player decisions then the game probably should just allow for respec. The Diablo 3 thread here suggests this may not be popular.
 

Bulba

Learned
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518
The next thing you'll tell me that people look up builds for d3 or smng
 
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I look up mechanics for any game that is going to be based around combat. The problem is that generally once you understand the mechanics it's obvious what the best 1 or 2 builds are.
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
I look up mechanics for any game that is going to be based around combat. The problem is that generally once you understand the mechanics it's obvious what the best 1 or 2 builds are.



This is actually true for too simple games. Which is a pity. I am hoping that Knights of Esenwald will actually provide better combat than that.
 
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Excidium

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So is this still about games with skill trees or did everyone decide to ignore the thread title to show how hardcore they are?
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
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I'd rather read a little about the mechanics before beginning. I don't like realizing mid-game that I can't do something I wanted to do. For example, in ToEE, the dex requirement for dual-wielding goes up on the last feat and you might find yourself screwed. Better safe than sorry.
 
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Excidium

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I'd rather read a little about the mechanics before beginning. I don't like realizing mid-game that I can't do something I wanted to do. For example, in ToEE, the dex requirement for dual-wielding goes up on the last feat and you might find yourself screwed. Better safe than sorry.
TOEE confirmed for skill trees-based game with hidden mechanics.

(In before "feats are just like skill trees")
 

Thrasher

Erudite
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,407
I usually go with my gut and see how it works out. When I start getting in game feedback that things aren't working out so well, I do research on the inernets to see if I majorly fucked up. Otheerwise I just go full steam ahead, even if my build is not optimal. The only exception to this was NWN/2 and W8. I was unsure enough that I read up on mechanics before starting. It really depends on the system and game, I suppose.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Yeah, I think most people focused on the non-transparent part and less on the skill tree part. I know I did. But what is it that's part of the skill trees that is really relevant? It strikes me that the actually interesting part of the topic is that it's a system where you can't possibly have everything and that the choices aren't necessarily clearly laid out in terms of their effectiveness, etc. That these types of systems tend to use skill trees is simply incidental, so far as I can tell.
 
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Excidium

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No. with feats, you have requirements. With trees, not only do you have requirements but you also need to spend x points to get where you need so it's a lot more limiting.
 

mediocrepoet

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No. with feats, you have requirements. With trees, not only do you have requirements but you also need to spend x points to get where you need so it's a lot more limiting.

I think it actually depends. Feats start to look a lot like skill trees when you look at things like Whirlwind Attack with all of its prerequisite feats and their attendant requirements. If you're considering stuff like power attack then fine, but as you go along you can see things that start looking more like trees - though only in some cases and many will be lines (e.g. power attack -> cleave -> great cleave...) more akin to something from Dragon Age.
 

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