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Information Thorvalla Kickstarter goes online

Bladderfish

Augur
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
125
No chance of the Codex getting a post Kickstarter interview then? I'd hope so, because it always seems hypocritical that Guide was so open to interviews and posting on the forums before the Kickstarter, and now ... nothing.
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Messages
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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Come on, give the guy a break. He had a shitty pitch and feels bad about it, especially because he probably thought it was a good one. In his mind he put faith into all the old-school RPG fans and RoA fans and found there weren't as many as he'd hoped, or that's what the results probably tell him. He's probably feeling bad for now and doesn't want to talk to anyone.

It's not hypocritical, it's human.
 

Bladderfish

Augur
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
125
Come on, give the guy a break. He had a shitty pitch and feels bad about it, especially because he probably thought it was a good one. In his mind he put faith into all the old-school RPG fans and RoA fans and found there weren't as many as he'd hoped, or that's what the results probably tell him. He's probably feeling bad for now and doesn't want to talk to anyone.

It's not hypocritical, it's human.

I'm sure he's pissed, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be open to talking about what went wrong. Yes, it would be harsh to pounce on his prostrate form while it twisted in the throes of agony, but such things fade quickly and should give way to introspection.

He does have followers who pledged, and I for one would be incredibly interested to know his thoughts about why Thorvalla didn't take off, what he'd have to do to make it work in the future and especially about why there was absolutely no publicity for it (I regularly read RPS and their Kickstarter round-up never once mentioned Thorvalla, which I find weird for a game with so much going for it asking for such a large amount of money ... not that I'm saying there's a conspiracy or anything, I just can't explain the total lack of publicity).
 

Mother Russia

Andhaira
Andhaira
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Codex 2013
First, I have to say that the RoA series was a pariah even in the old school school. It was a unique game series, that simulated an adventuring party quite entertainingly. However, plenty of people did not like a game where the real threat of dying came not from dying in combat (in fact, the series did not have near as many combat encounters as other crpgs of the time. nothing even close to the goldbox series in fact, or even the Baldurs Gate series) but from surviving the aftermath of the battles (wounds, disease, broken weapon, no arrows/bolts/thrown weapons, no astral energy for sorcery, etc) which in turn could fuck you up in the next battle big time. Not to mention the world itself with its harsh elements, disease, etc etc.

But there are still enough old school crpg and RoA fans to IMO fund a 1 million K-Starter IF they get word of it. Those who love the series, love it fiercely and understand why it was so fucking amazing and groundbreaking.

But see, Mr. Henkel made it clear from the outset that this game would be in the vein of RoA, but also different. And the differences is where the problems arose. For instance, an off putting comment to me was that there would not be as many stats-crunch as in RoA. That did not need to be said, esp if you are appealing to the RoA crowd.

If anything, today's computing power ensures super crunch heavy crpgs, as the computer does all the math. Even for myself, who prefers rules medium, rules moderate and rules light systems now in pnp crpgs, would LOVE a super crunchy crpg where there are detailed rules for minute shit like deflecting arrows and redirecting them in mid air, summoning many critters for aid, weapons degradation, disease, foraging for herbs, hunting for food, etc etc that would cause a pnp game to become un-fun, because a PC can make all the checks instantly due to processor power.

So anyhow, Guido could easily return with a better pitch aimed at the hardkkkore krowd. It's not like it takes money...I guess making concept art and videos like that 3d dragon and hut could be expensive, but Fargo made his pitch without anything at all (save the $5.00/- he probably paid that kid in his Kickstarter vid)
 

EG

Nullified
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
4,264
And why he seems so insistent on the idea that there is no future . . .
 

EG

Nullified
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
4,264
And why he seems so insistent on the idea that there is no future . . .

Where did he say that?

The final update reads as such.

"At this point, however, it has become evident that there is not enough interest in and public support for such a game . . . "

He's not going to try again. There's nothing to try for.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
He needs to disappear again then to make room for the people who will not stop at anything to make their projects work
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Messages
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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
You know, that's a good point. If you're going to let this one little thing get you down you probably didn't have what it takes in the first place.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,750
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
He needs to disappear again then to make room for the people who will not stop at anything to make their projects work

Yeah, I mean, all those poor, driven indie developers who would love to have a chance, if only Guido wasn't so greedy to draw all that attention to himself. You guys gotta stop blaming Mr. Henkel. I am quite sure he did all he could, but from the posts here, a lot of his "fans" only whined because his kickstarter wasn't flashy or funny. I mean, I can understand being discouraged, but I think a lot of people could have done much more if they only gave it a chance instead of bemoaning that it never had a chance in first place.
 

EG

Nullified
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Oct 12, 2011
Messages
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He needs to disappear again then to make room for the people who will not stop at anything to make their projects work

Yeah, I mean, all those poor, driven indie developers who would love to have a chance, if only Guido wasn't so greedy to draw all that attention to himself. You guys gotta stop blaming Mr. Henkel. I am quite sure he did all he could, but from the posts here, a lot of his "fans" only whined because his kickstarter was doomed.

Fixed.

It's all about dollars per day, Alex. For a million dollars, he would have needed $30,000 a day. Once the project failed to get that on the first day (simplisticly), it was fucked. In this sense, all those bitching (all five of them :lol: ) contributing or contributing more wouldn't have mattered.
 

Alex

Arcane
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Messages
8,750
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
I disagree. It is all about how much attention you can gather to yourself If the kickstarter had really picked up in the last week, it could have worked just as well. Unlikely, to be sure, but in the end it is not a question of how likely por not it was, but what we, as people, did or did not. I am probably coming off a little more accusing than what I wanted. In truth, I never managed to donate either (they closed the kickstarter before I could). Even so, I certainly could have tried to make a little more ruckus to draw attention to this. An LP of RoA, or maybe a retrospective of Mr. Henkel's career. This could, and probably would, have been all for nothing, unless other people did the same, but that is the point of what I meant.

Mr. Henkel was supposedly working hard during these kickstarter months. He tried to make updates, deliver art and show what his idea were about at the same time he was trying to work on his usual job. Meanwhile, people who couldn't be arsed to give him 4 hours of attention say he is unmotivated because he isn't in the condition of trying again and put the blame of failure on his back. This is not a direct jab at you, Excommunicator, but I think you, like many others in this thread, are being more than unfair to Guido and his crew.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
He needs to disappear again then to make room for the people who will not stop at anything to make their projects work

Yeah, I mean, all those poor, driven indie developers who would love to have a chance, if only Guido wasn't so greedy to draw all that attention to himself. You guys gotta stop blaming Mr. Henkel. I am quite sure he did all he could, but from the posts here, a lot of his "fans" only whined because his kickstarter wasn't flashy or funny. I mean, I can understand being discouraged, but I think a lot of people could have done much more if they only gave it a chance instead of bemoaning that it never had a chance in first place.

Yeah well honestly I'm sickened by defeatist attitudes. The only people who fail at tasks of this kind* are those that stop trying.

* tasks not based on genetic/predetermined traits
 

Mother Russia

Andhaira
Andhaira
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Actually, I think he might be right: The kind of game he is pitching wont appeal to any part of the gaming spectrum (or so it would seem...maybe if it got more coverage?? There is a reason AAA+ publishers spend around half as much on marketing as they did on making the game itself) but it is the game he wants to make. He does not want to make a RoA clone with a Torment type narrative and story, as much as we would like it or not. He wants to make what he wants to make, including dragons, dragon riding, and card game combat/spellcasting or whatever that was.

Apart from the dragons part (I am so sick of dragons. Never liked them...though the RoA dragon battles were quite memorable) I am not going to make any judgement calls on his decision. Sure, to purists like some here a card game element might seem like heresy, but the initial pitch for Realms of Arkania might have seemed pretty sensational as well: a game where you stand a better chance of dying from disease, needing blankets and sleeping bags in your inventory, no magic weapons, etc etc. I can imagine playtesters, especially for the english version, giving worrying reports during playtesting. If it wasn't for people who try real innovative things, we would never have gotten the great gems we got.

Also, the card game element did work for that western jrpg type game (forgot the name, came out in the late 90's, and was a good game)
 

Moribund

A droglike
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
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Tied to the mast
but the initial pitch for Realms of Arkania might have seemed pretty sensational as well: a game where you stand a better chance of dying from disease, needing blankets and sleeping bags in your inventory, no magic weapons, etc etc. I can imagine playtesters, especially for the english version, giving worrying reports during playtesting. If it wasn't for people who try real innovative things, we would never have gotten the great gems we got.

Also, the card game element did work for that western jrpg type game (forgot the name, came out in the late 90's, and was a good game)

But isn't that how das schwarz eye game system works?

But I don't think it's fair to just call the guy a quitter, it takes time and money to work on things, he probably can't take a year off to work on it or he wouldn't need KS.
 

EG

Nullified
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
4,264
How about calling him "inflexible" then? Not necessarily a negative quality, but in this instance it means that unless we change to accommodate his vision, none of us will get to see it realized.

(I don't mind card-based combat, by the way.)
 

Mother Russia

Andhaira
Andhaira
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Codex 2013
but the initial pitch for Realms of Arkania might have seemed pretty sensational as well: a game where you stand a better chance of dying from disease, needing blankets and sleeping bags in your inventory, no magic weapons, etc etc. I can imagine playtesters, especially for the english version, giving worrying reports during playtesting. If it wasn't for people who try real innovative things, we would never have gotten the great gems we got.

Also, the card game element did work for that western jrpg type game (forgot the name, came out in the late 90's, and was a good game)

But isn't that how das schwarz eye game system works?

Technically yes, but D&D also has rules for disease, travel and minute stuff like that, which was never included in any D&D game (save rules for encumbrance...which were very annoying) Food and Water reqs used to be included in EOB and Donjon Hack, but they too went the way of the dodo. Also, most D&D games don't use the pnp version of healing. (4e ofcourse adapted the video game version of healings...one 8 hour rest and you are at full everything. TBH, it wasnt a bad idea per se, but...)
 
Self-Ejected

HobGoblin42

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Codex 2013 Codex USB, 2014
'The Dark Eye'/'Das Schwarze Auge' is definitely less focussed on dungeons than D&D. The strong survival part in Arkania just reflects the typical playground of PnP sessions in DarkEye/DSA: the wilderness.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
but the initial pitch for Realms of Arkania might have seemed pretty sensational as well: a game where you stand a better chance of dying from disease, needing blankets and sleeping bags in your inventory, no magic weapons, etc etc. I can imagine playtesters, especially for the english version, giving worrying reports during playtesting. If it wasn't for people who try real innovative things, we would never have gotten the great gems we got.

Also, the card game element did work for that western jrpg type game (forgot the name, came out in the late 90's, and was a good game)

But isn't that how das schwarz eye game system works?

Technically yes, but D&D also has rules for disease, travel and minute stuff like that, which was never included in any D&D game (save rules for encumbrance...which were very annoying) Food and Water reqs used to be included in EOB and Donjon Hack, but they too went the way of the dodo.
Does anybody even enjoy those things? There's a point where survival aspects become babysitting.
 

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4,143
Not to mention that they probably changed the "rest until healed" mechanic to "rest 8 hours" because, unless they did, you'd get those ridiculous "you rested for 42 days and 16 hours" messages, with the world meekly waiting for you and your band to wake up from slumber.
 

Studio Fawn

Studio Fawn
Developer
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
190
but the initial pitch for Realms of Arkania might have seemed pretty sensational as well: a game where you stand a better chance of dying from disease, needing blankets and sleeping bags in your inventory, no magic weapons, etc etc. I can imagine playtesters, especially for the english version, giving worrying reports during playtesting. If it wasn't for people who try real innovative things, we would never have gotten the great gems we got.

Also, the card game element did work for that western jrpg type game (forgot the name, came out in the late 90's, and was a good game)

But isn't that how das schwarz eye game system works?

Technically yes, but D&D also has rules for disease, travel and minute stuff like that, which was never included in any D&D game (save rules for encumbrance...which were very annoying) Food and Water reqs used to be included in EOB and Donjon Hack, but they too went the way of the dodo.
Does anybody even enjoy those things? There's a point where survival aspects become babysitting.

Ultima underworld... finding pools and rivers to fish in? And knowing you could get enough food / water for a few days at least? Awesome :3
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,750
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
(...snip)
Technically yes, but D&D also has rules for disease, travel and minute stuff like that, which was never included in any D&D game (save rules for encumbrance...which were very annoying) Food and Water reqs used to be included in EOB and Donjon Hack, but they too went the way of the dodo.
Does anybody even enjoy those things? There's a point where survival aspects become babysitting.[/quote]

God damn it, Excidium, I have to gm you guys a good hexcrawl campaign for you to see how survival can be fun. Moving from hex to hex, looking for interesting features, hearing rumors, interacting with outstanding landmarks, finding dungeons, and braving the devious random tables, that include not only monsters, but also weather, time for sun setting, time for sun rise, interesting phenomena (like eclipses or frog rains), and then realizing that this whole map is actually a plaything, that you guys can influence, change or even take control of. It can be a lot of fun. It is not a question of micromanagement, it is a question of facing interesting consequences to when you need to make do with what you have.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
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Messages
13,696
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Third World
What I'm saying is that it is a chore when it is shohorned into a game that is not about survival in the first place.
 

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