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Interesting article from the Economist

Mefi

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Originally Posted by The Economist
When looks are no longer enough

Jun 8th 2006
From The Economist print edition
Gaming: As graphics improve, artificial intelligence is becoming an ever more important part of designing video games

GOOD looks, the video-games industry is discovering, will get you only so far. The graphics on a modern game may far outstrip the pixellated blobs of the 1980s, but there is more to a good game than eye candy. Photo-realistic graphics make the lack of authenticity of other aspects of gameplay more apparent. It is not enough for game characters to look better—their behaviour must also be more sophisticated, say researchers working at the interface between gaming and artificial intelligence (AI).

Today's games may look better, but the gameplay is “basically the same” as it was a few years ago, says Michael Mateas, the founder of the Experimental Game Lab at the Georgia Institute of Technology. AI, he suggests, offers an “untapped frontier” of new possibilities. “We are topping out on the graphics, so what's going to be the next thing that improves gameplay?” asks John Laird, director of the AI lab at the University of Michigan. Improved AI is a big part of the answer, he says. Those in the industry agree. The high-definition graphics possible on next-generation games consoles, such as Microsoft's Xbox 360, are raising expectations across the board, says Neil Young of Electronic Arts, the world's biggest games publisher. “You have to have high-resolution models, which requires high-resolution animation,” he says, “so now I expect high-resolution behaviour.”

Representatives from industry and academia will converge in Marina del Rey, California, later this month for the second annual Artificial Intelligence and Interactive Digital Entertainment (AIIDE) conference. The aim, says Dr Laird, who will chair the event, is to increase the traffic of people and ideas between the two spheres. “Games have been very important to AI through the years,” he notes. Alan Turing, one of the pioneers of computing in the 1940s, wrote a simple chess-playing program before there were any computers to run it on; he also proposed the Turing test, a question-and-answer game that is a yardstick for machine intelligence. Even so, AI research and video games existed in separate worlds until recently. The AI techniques used in games were very simplistic from an academic perspective, says Dr Mateas, while AI researchers were, in turn, clueless about modern games. But, he says, “both sides are learning, and are now much closer.”

Consider, for example, the software that controls an enemy in a first-person shooter (FPS)—a game in which the player views the world along the barrel of a gun. The behaviour of enemies used to be pre-scripted: wait until the player is nearby, pop up from behind a box, fire weapon, and then roll and hide behind another box, for example. But some games now use far more advanced “planning systems” imported from academia. “Instead of scripts and hand-coded behaviour, the AI monsters in an FPS can reason from first principles,” says Dr Mateas. They can, for example, work out whether the player can see them or not, seek out cover when injured, and so on. “Rather than just moving between predefined spots, the characters in a war game can dynamically shift, depending on what's happening,” says Fiona Sperry of Electronic Arts.

If the industry is borrowing ideas from academia, the opposite is also true. Commercial games such as “Unreal Tournament”, which can be easily modified or scripted, are being adopted as research tools in universities, says Dr Laird. Such tools provide flexible environments for experiments, and also mean that students end up with transferable skills.

But the greatest potential lies in combining research with game development, argues Dr Mateas. “Only by wrestling with real content are the technical problems revealed, and only by wrestling with technology does it give you insight into what new kinds of content are possible,” he says.

Hence “Façade”, a game created by Dr Mateas with Andrew Stern, a researcher at the Institute for Creative Technologies at the University of Southern California. “It's an example of where I hope to see computer games go in five years,” says Dr Laird. The game is set in the apartment of Grace and Trip, a couple whose marriage is in trouble; by conversing with them in plain English, the player can influence them and help to determine whether they stay together. “Façade” is not so much a game as an interactive drama. “We wanted to build a game built around richly expressive characters,” says Dr Mateas. “We were interested in taking games into content areas that they haven't really explored before—we would like to create a new genre.”

Tellingly, Doug Church of Electronic Arts, who gave the keynote speech at last year's AIIDE conference, recently started work on a game with Steven Spielberg where “the focus is on building an emotive relationship at a story level and a gameplay level between the player and another character,” says Mr Young. Researchers and games developers are, it seems, converging on the same territory. “Industry people are being exposed to more complex techniques, and academics are learning that game AI is a unique, new and interesting problem,” says Dr Mateas. “Games are an amazing place to do fundamental AI research.”

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.c ... E1_SDDTSVG

Apologies if this has been put up before (not got time to check). And thanks to Alkar on Paradox OT for bringing it to my attention.

Anyone know what this Doug Church and Spielberg game is all about?
 

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I love The Economist. :)

As far as AI, we've been in the 3D era for what, almost 10 years now? It seems like if big improvements were to be made they would have been made already; or at least we'd be seeing some preliminary results. I'm not a programmer, and I understand that good AI would probably take some serious algorithms, but surely this isn't something that we only just now require the processing power to acheive, is it? Maybe someone with more knowledge than I in such an area can answer.
 

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The Economist can suck my dick. If AI makes good games how come the average game today is worse than the average 15 years ago? All they're really interested in is money and propping up another one of their stupid economic bubbles.
 

Mefi

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sheek said:
The Economist can suck my dick. If AI makes good games how come the average game today is worse than the average 15 years ago? All they're really interested in is money and propping up another one of their stupid economic bubbles.

Fair enough. I was intrigued by the Façade game though. Sod a new genre - how about applying it to an RPG?
 

bryce777

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ad hominem said:
I love The Economist. :)

As far as AI, we've been in the 3D era for what, almost 10 years now? It seems like if big improvements were to be made they would have been made already; or at least we'd be seeing some preliminary results. I'm not a programmer, and I understand that good AI would probably take some serious algorithms, but surely this isn't something that we only just now require the processing power to acheive, is it? Maybe someone with more knowledge than I in such an area can answer.

You are right - if anything AI is getting worse in general. More raw power does nott ake you far in making AI - it requires programming brainpower, in an industry where 90% of programmers are hopped up modders.

I think that ai is overrated, but the important thing is gameplay and attention to detail. When a character sees you stealign and reacts in a realistic way, that does not require fancy AI algorithms (which are overrated in general) but it requires common sense and careful attention to detail.

it would have been simple to make realistic AI for oblivion, for example. I could write down the basics in an afternoon and program the scheduling within a week or so given the engine already existing. Instead some braindead jackass was unleashed and completely skullfucked it.
 

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I remember when Quake 2 first came out, enemies' AI was praised. "When you shoot a rocket at them, they kneel and the rocket goes right over them! Groundbreaking!".

While I find basically nothing wrong with the article itself, it's really like Bush saying "Democracy is a good thing, everyone needs democracy".

it would have been simple to make realistic AI for oblivion, for example. I could write down the basics in an afternoon and program the scheduling within a week or so given the engine already existing. Instead some braindead jackass was unleashed and completely skullfucked it.

If only they didn't lie about it and hype it that much, admitted it upfront that they took a risk and made an experiment which failed and that's another lesson learned for the next game. I wouldn't keep playing the game anyway, but at least they would have some decency, and probably one more copy of their next game sold. Well, whatever, I'm going slightly off-topic.
 

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AI is important, in some genres more than others, but it's not the main thing and cannot on it's own improve/drive games forward.

AI is something that improves a game in the same way as: graphics, story, music, etc. But all of that is built on the core gameplay design and that is what is being lost. Gameplay as in what makes a game fun/good to play in the beginning - and that's never AI, graphics or anything else. You can add all the fluff you want (as we saw spectacularly with Oblivion), if you don't fix your design capability games are only going to get worse.

Other than that yes it will be interesting to see how technology advances, although like Bryce I am on the sceptical side.
 

Volourn

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"if anything AI is getting worse in general"

Bullshit.
 

galsiah

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ad hominem said:
As far as AI, we've been in the 3D era for what, almost 10 years now? It seems like if big improvements were to be made they would have been made already; or at least we'd be seeing some preliminary results.
We are seeing preliminary results - they're just mostly in academia (e.g. Facade).

I think the article is quite sensible. Significant advances in AI aren't likely to come from game companies themselves - they simply don't have the time/money to invest in unpredictable research. The trouble is that it's simply not such a focused problem as graphics, or real world physics. It's much easier to take one basic graphics / physics engine and apply it (with some success) to pretty much any genre of game, than it would be for an AI engine.

With graphics/physics, one engine will work for nearly all problems, and nearly all problems can make use of most of that engine. Pathfinding and similar aside (which aren't really AI in the terms above), most AI algorithms are only used/useful in a small proportion of situations - so a small proportion of games.

Given that the problem space of AI is so much broader than for graphics/physics, it's unlikely that anyone is going to make a general AI engine any time soon (what would it do?). It's much more likely that current trends will continue - i.e. research into specific areas without emphasis on putting it all together in general. That's nothing new. What makes things interesting is the adoption of games as research tools. That moves us from a situation where games companies hope that AI researchers happen to come up with something applicable to their problem, to a situation where the research is happening (often) on the precise problem the game company wishes to solve.

That's not going to change anything dramatically overnight, but it will almost certainly increase the proportion of AI reseach that is relevant for or easily adaptable to games.

sheek said:
If AI makes good games how come the average game today is worse than the average 15 years ago?
Nothing "makes good games" on its own apart from gameplay - which is an extremely vague concept. The article doesn't claim that AI makes good games - only that it's important. It doesn't claim that AI does this now - it suggests that it will in years to come:
John Laird said:
what's going to be the next thing that improves gameplay?

Of course, I'm not sure I share in the confidence that AI will improve gameplay any time soon. I am confident that it will be possible to improve gameplay using new AI techniques - I just worry that market forces might take us from big-boobed elves to big-boobed-elves-with-"personality" (without motivation).

Thankfully, not all researchers are doing natural language processing. Many techniques might be developed which are harder to take to the dark side.

sheek said:
Gameplay as in what makes a game fun/good to play in the beginning...
What does that even mean? Gameplay is the fun / "good"ness of the game - it doesn't create it. You might as well say:
??? doesn't make a good game - being a good game makes a good game.

If you take away AI, graphics, writing etc., you aren't left with "gameplay", you're left with a meaningless, pointless decision tree.

It's clear that AI is important, and will continue to be important. It's less clear that there's going to be any AI revolution any time soon, or that such a revolution would "redefine gaming" etc. The article doesn't say that though, even if it is a bit hyped.
 

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galsiah said:
sheek said:
Gameplay as in what makes a game fun/good to play in the beginning...
What does that even mean? Gameplay is the fun / "good"ness of the game - it doesn't create it. You might as well say:
??? doesn't make a good game - being a good game makes a good game.

If you take away AI, graphics, writing etc., you aren't left with "gameplay", you're left with a meaningless, pointless decision tree.

No, you're left with the game concept. The kind of stuff that is discussed in 50% of threads on this RPG Discussion forum. For RPGs how you interact with NPCs, how the game world reacts, how your character abilities are represented, how combat is dealt with, how you get rewarded for progression etc etc.

The fact is that a good RPG doesn't need AI at all. Good RPGs were made before this retarded obsession with 'sandbox worlds' and polygons... and RPGs are now stagnating while they push through their autistic ideas about immersion where choosing your avatar's hair color is a major 'gameplay' feature.
 

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denizsi said:
I remember when Quake 2 first came out, enemies' AI was praised. "When you shoot a rocket at them, they kneel and the rocket goes right over them! Groundbreaking!".

Groundbraking, aye, except Hexen II already had ducking enemies (and strafing, and jumping, and rolling around while strafing and then jumping), all before Quake 2 and none of them ever mentioned in any reviews.

Haaa, the gaming press, such fucking whores... <3
 

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sheek said:
For RPGs how you interact with NPCs
And an NPC without writing or graphics is???
how the game world reacts
What game world? You can't see it and you can't read about it. Your "world" is an abstract system of symbols. That's fine for chess and similar puzzle-like games. It is not fine for an RPG - you can't separate everything else from the gameplay without losing the RPG gameplay.
how your character abilities are represented
What character? What abilities? You don't have any once you remove all graphics and writing.
how combat is dealt with
And what is combat? Without any graphical / written representation of the world, there is no way to distinguish combat from any other activity. You have a decision tree with eventual win and lose states - that is all. In chess that's still interesting; in an RPG it isn't (presumably).
how you get rewarded for progression etc etc.
Again, there is no such thing as "progression".

You can only reasonably say "??? is less important than gameplay" if you can completely separate ??? from gameplay. Presuming that you want to say this of AI, graphics, writing, physics..., you really are left with an abstract system of symbols, some abstract decisions, and win/lose states.
If you mean that AI is less important than everything else combined, then of course it is - but that's true of any element.

What's most important is how things fit together overall. That combination gives the game its gameplay. Clearly that is more important than any one element. What is the point of saying that some element is less important than the entire game? It's obvious.

The fact is that a good RPG doesn't need AI at all.
It depends on the style of RPG. Most RPGs that include combat would struggle without any AI.
It also depends what you mean by AI - RPGs pretty much all need some nuts-and-bolts low level AI, such as pathfinding. It's fair to say that's not the type of AI we're talking about though.

Good RPGs were made before this retarded obsession with 'sandbox worlds' and polygons... and RPGs are now stagnating while they push through their autistic ideas about immersion where choosing your avatar's hair color is a major 'gameplay' feature.
And this relates to AI how exactly? I agree that high level AI isn't absolutely necessary, depending on the type of RPG you're making. Thinking that it isn't / won't be useful is just silly.

There have been some sandbox games which are very poor RPGs. That does not mean they were poor as RPGs because they adopted a sandbox approach. The easiest way to produce a good RPG is certainly not with a sandbox. That doesn't mean that it couldn't be done very well.

No-one thinks AI is the most important element of an RPG, but it is at the least useful - and potentially very important (for some good games - not all).
 

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If you take the example of this Facade game (sod silly squiggles, too late and can't be arsed), imagine a game where PC to NPC interaction actually functions as it is described. I'd say that's close to being a holy grail for the RPG genre - a fully interactive environment where your words and choice of words can have meaningful and visible consequences.

On its own it doesn't make a great game. There are too many other components for that to be so. But development along that route could pull RPGs back from the 'action' genre into the sort of games we would want to play and have the pretty particle effects which would sell to the mainstream.

Yeah, it's fantasy. But it is very interesting to see how it is being received by the industry.
 

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I agree - I only hope that the language AI will be used (as in Facade I believe - my PC's still too damn slow to run it) to give rise to meaningful and important consequences. I can easily see it going the other way, in a "Cool, you can talk to people and they respond to you realistically - it's so immersive..." sense.

If you look at what has been done so far with physics, it's nearly all "Look - isn't this cool", without any real gameplay significance. Physics could be used imaginatively to produce important and interesting gameplay, but it's so much easier to hook up the engine and forget about it, safe in the knowledge of the "Cool" factor.
 

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galsiah said:
And this relates to AI how exactly? I agree that high level AI isn't absolutely necessary, depending on the type of RPG you're making....No-one thinks AI is the most important element of an RPG, but it is at the least useful - and potentially very important (for some good games - not all).
Yeah, this probably isn't the best genre of game to discuss this about. We all play other stuff, and innovation in the industry in general is never a bad thing (hence the discussion....either that or we're all just opinionated cunts), but this is going to be a much more important concept in FPS, strategy games, and the like. Just imagine playing on a high difficulty setting where the CPU doesn't start in the industrial era (I'm looking at you, Sid Meier).
 

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galsiah said:
I agree - I only hope that the language AI will be used (as in Facade I believe - my PC's still too damn slow to run it) to give rise to meaningful and important consequences. I can easily see it going the other way, in a "Cool, you can talk to people and they respond to you realistically - it's so immersive..." sense.

If you look at what has been done so far with physics, it's nearly all "Look - isn't this cool", without any real gameplay significance. Physics could be used imaginatively to produce important and interesting gameplay, but it's so much easier to hook up the engine and forget about it, safe in the knowledge of the "Cool" factor.

True, but even in the FPS and action RPG, we're seeing that the 'cool' factor is now moving into manipulating the environment as part of the gameplay. Once everyone is 'cool', people try to move on and find the next level of differentiation.

So games could start off being as you say, but the next group of games would push it further into fully involving it with the gameplay.

For those who haven't tried Facade: http://www.interactivestory.net/
 

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Volourn said:
"if anything AI is getting worse in general"

Bullshit.

I don't really think it's bullshit. Any of you played the very first quake with reaper-bots? I they were able to learn from each other, or from player, they learned where to pick weapons how often it respawns and things like where is the best place to score frags IN ANY MAP. Hell they even learnd from each other how to access secret areas or to sneak behind portal to get a clean shot. Remember half life bots or unreal tournament bots? you had to prescript a lot of stuff in a custom made map to bring bots to work properly.

Another thing oblivion vs fallout:
have you seen in oblivion any npc to take better weapon from a corpse during battle?
 

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I think it's more that designers don't really care about the AI and worry too much about graphics. Just laziness...OB's devs seem to epitomize that...
 

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ixg said:
I think it's more that designers don't really care about the AI and worry too much about graphics. Just laziness...OB's devs seem to epitomize that...

That's basically it. Also with radiant AI, they hyped it to do shit that made no real sense, so their implementation followed the hype. Same with the physics. Yes, they still have rats trapped under fuckign tables. Pathetic.

If people seriously think AI is better in general, just look at pathfinding in RPGs. What a joke. Even in toee everything is scripted.

Also, look at RTS games. What a joke. I think half the appeal of RTS games is that they are so easy to program....
 
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Played Facade, was not particularly impressed. They basically take some little notice of you and then crowbar the conversation right back towards their break up. And if you even mention cuntflaps they throw you out... they're no friends of mine...
 

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The Natural Language Processsing of Façade is obviously one of the needed steps into creating a better game. But that's jumping ahead.

The key question is where do we want to be? I dont think everyone will agree about that. Some people see the holy grail as full 3d VR where you can speak plainly and interact normally as you do in real life inside a game. Others will forever be fine with 2d turn-based games or hyperlinking text to NPCs or even multiple-choice response selection.

Im not going to try and get everyone on the same page, but its a little futile to discuss what the best next-gen game is without standards to judge your conversation by.

AI has continually gotten better, but of course has a long way to go. It seems the "library" of AI abilities grows each year, but like so many other processes has plateaus and dead periods. Faster hardware and better programming will bring better AI. Its just a fact.

I've stated in several posts that I hope that the 3d race would end with photorealism and gameplay would be the focus thereafter. Someone said that physics, then ai, then something else would always become the new metric that publishers use to explain why their game is better. Let's face it - most dumb gamers understand tangible quantities rather than an intense discussion of why gameplay is good.

On the whole though, I still think the race to photorealism will mark an end point to where gameplay wins out. AI is of course one of the sub-parts of good gameplay (yes, storyline, interaction, game construction are more important) and as it gets better it will lead to developers being able to do better things.

I sincerely hope that the LUA community can continue archiving open-source code to build a bank of AI that grows exponentially in order to speed this particular avenue.
 

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The Natural Language Processsing of Façade is obviously one of the needed steps into creating a better game

But who is going to invest in that in the game industry? Consoles don't have keyboards, untrained unbounded speech recognition is years away.
 

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