Compromises between 'good graphics' and gameplay (TB)

[sheek]

OK my question is how do you make a game that 'looks good' (high poly, 3D, close up detail) that a casual gamer market obviously wants and good gameplay especially combat?

I thought of 'Return to Krondor':

It's a game I've played quite a lot and which I like and might reinstall although it is a bit RPG-lite. It's linear, dialog plays little or no role and the 'thinking' parts of the game are a handful of puzzles. But the combat was pretty good.

It was party turn-based and there was some strategy involved. The only major problems I thought were some weird camera angles (which need to be set for each room/scene).

Not many games have followed that format. It seems that all the good-looking games have gone the RT 1st/3rd person and the rest (but smaller number) stuck to 'traditional' zoomed out/isometric stuff.

Is there any potential for games like RtK as a compromise between good gameplay mechanics and appeal to casuals?

If you don't want to talk about that are there any other 'compromises' you can think of?

 

[Nicolai]

I don't know about you chaps, but I still think that games like Planescape: Torment and the Fallouts look great. A game's visual style is more important than its amount of graphical bells and whistles, eh.

 

[onerobot]

Reminds me a bit of Rise of Nations, which is pretty much a simpler version of Civilization. I used to play a lot of multiplayer with friends who didn't like more complex stategy games, and it was good fun as it had detailed graphics and tactical battles for more casual appeal and strategy for the EU fans, with lots of nukes for all.

The problem with games like that is that they have to be really well done since they appeal to such a wide audience, and probably cost more than strictly casual games while alienating much of the audience that likes things with more complexity. That's probably the reason RtK failed; the people who played the first game thought it felt dumbed down, and the people it was trying to appeal to just played Diablo instead. Without multiplayer to tie games like these together they're probably too hard to pull off.

 

[denizsi]

I know it's not the same style but if Oblivion were a serious RPG game compliant with the codex consensus in most ways, I believe it would sell more or less the same and would still be as much popular as it is now with the only exception of forcing dumbasses to use their brains so they might evolve for real. That said, I believe the casual gamer market wants and likes anything with hype, and the quality of the game itself is more or less an independent factor. It'll go whatever way hype-machines force it to go.

So, I don't believe there's any compromise as long as right people are making the games.

 

[St. Toxic]

There was obviously alot of work on graphics in Fallout & PS:T, just a different timestandard. The only way to make a good looking, good playing game is simply to balance the two factors in the development, and not try "blowing people away" with feature X. The success formula for EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD is simply moderation.

 

[bryce777]

Return to krondor was terrible and was a complete flop.

 

[glasnost]

I was waiting for someone to say it!

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Out of curiousity, which game had the largest combination of good graphics and commercial failure? We could name hundred that good story/gamelay + failure, but we don't discuss the other side of the coin that often.

 

[Lyric Suite]

^ The only one that comes to mind is Unreal 2, but i'm guessing the reason that game flunk (relatively) is that the graphics just weren't impressive enough...

 

[Micmu]

^ The only one that comes to mind is Unreal 2, but i'm guessing the reason that game flunk (relatively) is that the graphics just weren't impressive enough...

Either that or because it was Yet Another Generic Shooter (tm) at Space Station with Space Marines (tm).

 

[kingcomrade]

That would make it fail...?

 

[Twinfalls]

Out of curiousity, which game had the largest combination of good graphics and commercial failure?

Terra Nova, by Looking Glass software. It had the most stunning outdoor engine yet built (play it today - it can still be breathtaking), was fantastically polished, and had outstanding gameplay and mission variety to boot.

And flopped.

(Sobs)

 

[Twinfalls]

Oh, and on the whole 'good graphics' thing, there's a crucial difference between style and fancy tech. Now that everything's gone mainstream and uses middleware and 'shiny fake effect done by the videocard', even what's held up as 'teh great grafix' usually sucks donkeys by any worthwhile measure, since there's precious little original style, and there's not even the very clever use of limited resources to achieve spectacular results - that we used to have.

Bioshock looks to be the best coming up, Looking Glass pedigree once again...

 

[ad hominem]

Oh, and on the whole 'good graphics' thing, there's a crucial difference between style and fancy tech. Now that everything's gone mainstream and uses middleware and 'shiny fake effect done by the videocard', even what's held up as 'teh great grafix' usually sucks donkeys by any worthwhile measure, since there's precious little original style, and there's not even the very clever use of limited resources to achieve spectacular results - that we used to have.

Yeah, art direction can have a much bigger impact than technical graphics (Windwaker, for instance), but I think when the term "graphics" is used nowadays it means more raw numbers crunching and the implementation of technologies irrespective of the reasoning behind them. Whereas a good art director (do they still exist?) would say, "Let's put the fog and particle stuff here, because it's old and dusty and would add to atmosphere," the graphics guy would say, "Let's put the particle effects everywhere....teh sh1ny."

Could the problem be that we're not really limited by resources anymore?

 

[sheek]

Oh, and on the whole 'good graphics' thing, there's a crucial difference between style and fancy tech. Now that everything's gone mainstream and uses middleware and 'shiny fake effect done by the videocard', even what's held up as 'teh great grafix' usually sucks donkeys by any worthwhile measure, since there's precious little original style, and there's not even the very clever use of limited resources to achieve spectacular results - that we used to have.

What I mean by 'good graphics' (as was said in the first post) is:
-close up perspectives
-high level of character detail
-movable camera

A lot of people (including me) like that and many gamers absolutely demand those features in games. That may be narrow minded (I think they are) but those gamers are a major force in the market.

There are many RPG players who will never touch a game with the old-style graphics/perspective. Some would agree with everything else the Codex believes in but because of that prejudice and lack of an alternative are stuck with choosing between eg Oblivion and Two Worlds.

I'm not saying RPGs should all go with an FPS/Morrowind model but asking about alternatives to the isometric/zoomed out perspective that do not mean sacrificing gameplay (eg going with Real Time and Solo PCs, Turn-based party RPGs are hard to imagine).

Return to Krondor seemed to be a pretty unique example whether you like it or not. It is Turn based and Party based while combining high detail, 3D graphical environment.

The only theoretical/design argument I can think of against it is the well known one that 3D models take more time. You'd also you need to set camera angles manually for each scene which is incompatible for a totally open-ended/sandbox Daggerfall-type game.

I believe that RtK with dialogue options and branching story paths would have made a very good RPG.

 

[St. Toxic]

Link me up to Terra Nova.

 

[Twinfalls]

Right here, cadet:

http://www.freylia.net/lgclassics/dl.html

But you must read through this thread first:

http://rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php ... c&start=25

for my comments and suggestions.

edit: scrap that, all I said was

Re Terra Nova - a minor thing - when fiddling with the graphics settings, make sure you set every option individually to its highest, as using the all-in-one 'best graphics' setting will actually set the environment to less than optimum (I think water shadows are off).

You will be stunned at how it holds up. Play it through a big tele if you can - the outdoors are still breathtaking at times (use the minimum-visor view, I think you click the little button in the top left of the screen, though you can set your visor screens to show what each of your squad-mates is seeing). The mission variety is outstanding, the undercover operation near the end is really unnerving.

If you need help getting it to work under XP, go to www.ttlg.com and then to the Terra Nova forum there.

 

[Pussycat669]

Out of curiousity, which game had the largest combination of good graphics and commercial failure? We could name hundred that good story/gamelay + failure, but we don't discuss the other side of the coin that often.

The two Battlezone titles (not the arcade one) would be good canditates I think. Both had more than endurable and smooth graphics for their time and great gameplay value. Still no guarantee for financial success, sadly.

 

[Zomg]

How about Advent Rising for a high production value failure?

 

[Hazelnut]

Out of curiousity, which game had the largest combination of good graphics and commercial failure?

Terra Nova, by Looking Glass software. It had the most stunning outdoor engine yet built (play it today - it can still be breathtaking), was fantastically polished, and had outstanding gameplay and mission variety to boot.

And flopped.

(Sobs)

God-damn, another great I've never even heard of! :shock:

Why did it bomb? Did it even sneak under people's radar who were not out of the gaming scene at the time?

Added to the list of games to play, which is getting kinda long.

 

[Twinfalls]

Looking Glass self-published, which I think was part of the picture, but really, its commercial failure given its critical reception was quite mystifying.

You *must* put this game at the top of your list. I cannot recommend it more highly. Remember that these guys made Thief and System Shock, and this game is every bit as good as they were, in some ways its better (huge outdoors, more colour, tons of great action).

The controls may feel awkward to start, but stick with it.

I still think it's the greatest squad-based action game ever made. It's certainly my favourite action game of all time.

 

[sheek]

I remember playing a demo off a game magazine bonus CD. It was fun.

 

[suibhne]

How about Advent Rising for a high production value failure?

Yes, but not a good high production value failure. :wink:

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Looking Glass self-published, which I think was part of the picture, but really, its commercial failure given its critical reception was quite mystifying.

You *must* put this game at the top of your list. I cannot recommend it more highly. Remember that these guys made Thief and System Shock, and this game is every bit as good as they were, in some ways its better (huge outdoors, more colour, tons of great action).

The controls may feel awkward to start, but stick with it.

I still think it's the greatest squad-based action game ever made. It's certainly my favourite action game of all time.

Hmm, I got that once as part of a collection package, but didn't get into it. the lack of a manual was a real problem, if I remember correctly.

As to sheeks post, I think that by now that fear of turn based is so deeply ingrained both in developers minds as in younger players that you would have a hard time breaking through it, no matter how great the presentation.
But here is a random idea anywyay: How about a game with a combat system that you play turn or phase based, and allows very fancy moves (think Kung-fu wire trick stuff). Then add a "replay" function, and an option to share your recorded fights over the internet. So basically you try to build the most amazing fighting scenes. That may attract a few kids, I could imagine.

 

[St. Toxic]

Well I'm downloading it, let's see how it holds up. Thank's.

EDIT: Seems you need "old" hardware to get it running. How :kubrick:.