Hell sorta freezes over in Neverwinter

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I called you a butt fuck cause I care

OMG THE FALLOUT FANS ARE SO IMMATURE< I JUST HAVE TO ROLL MY EYES AT THEM LEWL

 

[Volourn]

Hehe. You are on a roll. I love you.

 

[Visceris]

BUTTFUCK! BUTTFUCK! BUTTFUCk! BUTTFUCK!

 

[Voss]

Please, children.
Get a room.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

BUTTFUCK! BUTTFUCK! BUTTFUCk! BUTTFUCK!

Get banned 4 FUN!!!

ANyways, I'm sure people knew that troika was implementing robes in ToEE since well maybe the screens and the announcement of them? They just didn't release the game and surprised the people about robes. I'm sure Bioware knew too.

 

[Volourn]

Troika also annoucned the game would be TB, would be GH, would have swallowing frogs as well. All of these are popular things about TOEE. Why isn't BIO adding those as well? Hmm... Maybe it's because people aren't whining about those things on the boards. Go figure.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Troika also annoucned the game would be TB, would be GH, would have swallowing frogs as well. All of these are popular things about TOEE. Why isn't BIO adding those as well? Hmm... Maybe it's because people aren't whining about those things on the boards. Go figure.

I'm saying that since NWN has been released the fans wanted robes in the game? Got that part? Okay now this part is a bit tricky, but stay with it. biowares counters against the fans that wanted robes was that they were too hard to implement Okay, now it gets a bit trickier but I believe in you! Troika announces ToEE and say it will have robes, so if Bioware already had a problem with people complaining about robes, think how much worse the complaining would be if a smaller class developer came in the DnD realm and included robes with considerably less development time? More complaining, by their own fans.

yes, it wasn't ToEE that made them put in the robes, but the complaining fans did. The complaining fans got more frenzied when another game was getting what they wanted. ToEE wasn't directly involved but it did have an influence, if you trace it back.

When did NWN fans want TB in NWN? When did they want it to be GH with swallowing frogs as well? They wanted robes, a non bioware game had robes so now Bioware fans want robes even more.

 

[AlanC9]

Troika also annoucned the game would be TB, would be GH, would have swallowing frogs as well. All of these are popular things about TOEE. Why isn't BIO adding those as well? Hmm... Maybe it's because people aren't whining about those things on the boards. Go figure.

I'm saying that since NWN has been released the fans wanted robes in the game? Got that part? Okay now this part is a bit tricky, but stay with it. biowares counters against the fans that wanted robes was that they were too hard to implement Okay, now it gets a bit trickier but I believe in you! Troika announces ToEE and say it will have robes, so if Bioware already had a problem with people complaining about robes, think how much worse the complaining would be if a smaller class developer came in the DnD realm and included robes with considerably less development time? More complaining, by their own fans.

yes, it wasn't ToEE that made them put in the robes, but the complaining fans did. The complaining fans got more frenzied when another game was getting what they wanted. ToEE wasn't directly involved but it did have an influence, if you trace it back.

Only problem with that theory is that ToEE just doesn't come up much on the NWN boards. The consensus it that it's an OK game, but not really worth much discussion. Some like it, some don't, nobody thinks it's important.

 

[Chadeo]

Which does not make much (any?) sense to me. Toss in real time combat (assuming the engine could handle it for a second) and ToEE would be just like a bioware game.

Its d&d. It has all the same rules, same gear, same monsters, and similar (if not better) graphic content. It has around the same level of writing.

Wait…I know…it must be because ToEE offers this interesting thing called influence. That’s right, you can actually change the outcome of the game by your actions.

I swear bioware is just like apple. They release stuff that has some polish, but not a ton of substance, yet they attract rabid fans for some reason and almost always get super glowing reviews. (and to any mac fans, don’t tare my head off, it was the quickest analogy I could think of).

Either turn-based is just unpopular, or voice acting is vitally important.

Seriously, all jesting aside, I honestly fail to see how two d&d games would appear that much different to the gaming public.

 

[Volourn]

That's right. TOEE is barely mentioned on the BIO baords. People there just don't care. Get it now? TOEE doesn't even really rank on the BIO board radar. I think after TOEE was released only oen, or two people on the BIO baords ever whined,"TOEE has 'em; why can't NWN?" So, please try again. TOEE is irrelevant to what goes into NWN.

 

[Gully Dwarf]

I'm suprised that nobody mentioned (or didn't know) that the Fire and Ice mod has nice-looking cloaks. I believe a hak-pak was necessary, but it proves that cloaks are do-able.

 

[Visceris]

In a PM to David Gaider he stated that some of the hak pak cloaks looked decent enough for people to use so they decided that it isn't a major issue for them to work on.

 

[Volourn]

You mena it wasn't ebcause TOEE had them? Perish the thought.

 

[AlanC9]

Which does not make much (any?) sense to me. Toss in real time combat (assuming the engine could handle it for a second) and ToEE would be just like a bioware game.

Its d&d. It has all the same rules, same gear, same monsters, and similar (if not better) graphic content. It has around the same level of writing.

(snip)

Either turn-based is just unpopular, or voice acting is vitally important.

Seriously, all jesting aside, I honestly fail to see how two d&d games would appear that much different to the gaming public.

I think ToEE and NWN are a lot more different than you realize. They don't offer me anything like the same style of play; in fact, they're about as different as two D&D games can be. (Edit: or maybe not; I don't know anything about BGDA).

Obviously turn-based is a big part of this. And yes, turn-based is very unpopular on the NWN boards. Even people who like it in ToEE or X-COM don't want it in NWN.

If I had to sum up the difference, I'd say that people play NWN for plot and character, while they play ToEE for tactical combat. (I can think of four or five well-regarded and popular NWN mods where combat is almost completely irrelevant - and one where it outright sucked, but nobody cared.)

Incidentally, ToEE doesn't really resemble anything Bio ever released - they never did a "5-headed monster" party, although you could do this in BG via multiplayer. It's a lot more like the IWD games, which are Black Isle's work. Though I'll admit that the various ToEE endings work just about like the ones in Throne of Bhaal.

 

[Gully Dwarf]

In a PM to David Gaider he stated that some of the hak pak cloaks looked decent enough for people to use so they decided that it isn't a major issue for them to work on.

Ha, I'd chalk that one up as laziness. The hak-paks aren't much good if the mod doesn't use them. So, you can have your cloaks in the Fire & Ice mod, but that's it. No purchasing them from the local merchant.

Plus, my point was that cloaks are definitely doable, and it's only laziness that keeps them from any official Bio product.

 

[Volourn]

No, not laziness. Higher priorty given to other stuff. You do know what priortizing is, do you?

 

[Gully Dwarf]

No, not laziness. Higher priorty given to other stuff. You do know what priortizing is, do you?

Ah, but robes are. Personally, I don't care. As long as the game is fun, I'm all over it. Playing "dress-up" is just that, it dresses up the game. My posts were really in response to other posts regarding the "doability" of cloaks.

 

[AlanC9]

Apparently cloaks were harder than robes because of the animations. Robes track the existing body parts, but cloaks don't, so cloaks need more animation work.

I wonder if it came down to Dragon Disciple wings vs. cloaks?

 

[Voss]

Gods, I hope not. I've seen one screen shot with the wings- they look like they were simply jammed on in a fairly Frankensteinish way.

The picture here:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternightsxp2/screens_6077172.html?page=2

I also really dislike the beholders, from an artistic point of view. Why 5 bulging eyestalks rather than the more accurate 10, done in a way that looks good?

 

[Volourn]

How old are those shots? At one time BIo hadn't found away to give beholders 10 eyestalks; and now that problem fixed. As for the overall look for the beholders; they look better than most other beholders I've seen in a D&D crpg. And, the wings aren't that bad either. I think you have a case of bashing BIO for the sake of it; and looking for any nagging imperfection to rag on them about.

 

[Voss]

Last week. Or, at least, they were posted last week.
And no, I just think that picture and those beholders look awful. Even for 3d modeling, which still has a long way to go before it looks reasonably good (at least not without spending millions and taking years). In contrast, the next picture in the sequence looks fairly nice and majestic.

The beholders in BG2 looked much better.
Heck, the beholders in Curse of the Azure Bonds looked better, frankly.

And the wings... well. the just look wrong. They don't hook up with the body in any reasonable fashion, and they stuck them on with very little regard for the interaction with the armor/clothing. And in the complete non-functionality of wings in a game that doesn't allow flying, and theres a whole question of 'why bother with this?' And since the default camera position is such that the player will be staring at those wings more or less continually... its hard for me to avoid thinking about them.

You really need to stop assuming that *any* criticism is just random Bio-bashing, particularly when there are reasons for the criticism.

 

[Volourn]

I don't remember the beholders in Azure looked like. So long ago; but the Bg2 beholders do not look that good. As for the eyes, supposedly the beholder snow have ten eyes. I hope that's still the case as it would suck if they remained only 5.

As for the wings; sure they aren't perfect. I never said they were. However, you say it's affront. I means eriously, that's quite an overstatement.

And, once again you exaggerate. I don't assume *any* criticism is just random BIO bahsing. I look at the source. Many people criticize NWN, and BIO (inclduing myself) and I barely bat an eye, and others well, their general demanor ion this topic tends to lend to not taking their criticism that seriously.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Those wings certainly do put the reason they didn't do cloaks in perspective, though. Remember when they said they didn't have cloaks unless they felt they looked up their standards? Well, those standards must be pretty low, judging by those wings.

 

[Voss]

I said it was an affront? Who's exaggerating now?
I just think they're ugly and badly done.
And while the BG2 beholders may not look that good, they look better than these beasts.

I'm certainly not exagerating... Over and over again you've jumped into threads and lectured people about 'bashing' Bioware. And sometimes (even often) they are...but sometimes its deserved criticism. And no matter how many times you point out that you criticism them too, you still come across as over-protective. And if you don't take it seriously, why bother responding to it at all?

 

[Volourn]

I don't take jokes seriously either; but I respond to them as well.

Okay, you didn't technically use the word affront; but I do feel though they are not eprfect they are most certainly not "awful", or the opther descriptives you used.

Yes, I do come to the defense of NWN; because when people tend toc riticize it they go to the extreme, and someone has to drag them back to sanity.

As far as me coming off as over protetcive; oh well. *shrugs* Not too worried what others think of me. All one has to do is read my posts, and can see I've done my fair share of complaoining about things BIO has done.

I have started exactly one thread on the BIo baords in the last two, or three months, and that was to complain about a specific innane design decision they made for HOTU. Ahh, oh well. 'Tis is life.