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Rome: Total War - Most unbalanced strategy game ever?

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
I just got Rome: Total War today so I was playing it. I started on easiest level as the Scipiians... I'm not talking about the battles because I didn't bother with them (I'm just there for the empire building).

So I thought I'd play this game in a kind of intelligent way. First thing I noticed was how huge the revenue was from each town and that you could put taxes right down to lowest and still have enough income to recruit new troops. That along with taking over independent towns with my one big attack army was my basic strategy:

Take over a town, don't kill or pillage anybody and start investing in farms, roads, public health etc.

Anyway by 240 BC I have eleven towns. About six of them are 20,000-25,000 people (others 10,000-15,000). Every five turns I get a plague breaking out somewhere and public disorder. Meanwhile my income is about 30,000 gold a turn (this is still with lowest possible tax everywhere).

My treasury is 280,000 gold even though I basically throw money out of the window. (I paid some tiny greek city I was tired fighting with 30,000 just to sign the cease-fire). All my kids are fat, corrupt retards because of growing up with so much money and only the worst generals want to marry my daughters.

I go on gamefaqs and the guy there says that the number one priority is to keep population and money both down . Cities should never go above 20,000 and you should never have more than 50,000 in cash. What the fuck?

The last thing I did before uninstalling was try to reverse that. I made a save game called 'Population Control' and put all taxes up to the max, recruiting millions of thugs and gave about 250,000 gold as a 'gift' to the other Roman factions. Finally four cities revolt... I go in and slaughter maybe 60,000 innocent townspeople (oh, and all of a sudden the 'proletariat' loves me :?).

Take over those towns again (reduced to about 5,000 each) and put taxes up to the maximum. Public order is good, then I look at population growth... at 9% per turn (!) (turn = six months) it's obvious I am going to repeat the slaughter every ten years.

Over the whole of my gaming time I am sure spent more of my time trying to deal plague and revolt in towns due to growth than on anything else.

I wonder why everybody raves about Total War. Did Creative Assembly just forget to pay somebody to playtest the campaign side of the game? :roll:
 

Oarfish

Prophet
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
2,511
Install rome total realism, it actualy makes the campaign playable. It removes all the retarded units like war dogs, allows you to purchase decent units from the get go and makes the kill rate sane in battle mode too.
 

CrusaderTemplar

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 17, 2004
Messages
305
Location
California
well one. everyone plays the battles. They don't need to bother with horrible management of crappy towns. Its the battles we play. Also did you notice under campaign, is Custom Battles, Historical Battles and more battles :P.
 

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
Yeah I heard about it but does it fix the economic system? Because I am not going to invest hours into a game to find everything goes crazy when I hit 25,000 population.

By the way I'm playing with the latest patch (v1.5).

Hasn't anybody else had problems with this?

Crusader: yeah, that's what I guessed. I am not too interested in RTT at the moment. But even if you play the battles you must have a functioning campaign system. Winning is supposed to take 250 years... (I must have got to 50)
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
The AI and balance in Rome vanilla is way fucked up.

Not to mention the awful bugs.

RTR fixes alot, but they still dont have a version for Barbarian Invasion yet.
 

Gambler

Augur
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
767
BTW, did they fix the bug when ranged and melee atack damages were swapped?
 

AZ

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
467
"I started on easiest level" - bad decision, play at the hardest, whit a minor nation.

And battles are fun in multi.
 

Nutcracker

Scholar
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Messages
935
RTR is excessively anal and has way too many provinces - the game becomes a MMORPG-like grind of neverending siege battles. A much better mod is Lusted's Terra Expugnandae which is more focussed on gameplay tweaks, it doesnt try and overhaul the entire campaign map or anything like that.

Anyway the solution to your problem is NOT to build higher than the first/second level of farms anywhere except your really agriculturally poor cities. Farms increase income somewhat, but by the mid game trade routes are FAR more important for this so you wont miss it at all. The key is to keep your population growing at a stable level but not too high; the aim is to preserve public order. No matter how good you are, you'll find it difficult to keep happy cities with 30,000 plus population. What i try and do is get them to the highest level of building capability (~24,000?) and try and keep the population stable around that level, between 24-30K. This means not building the higher level of farms. However, building aqueducts is necessary (even though they promote growth, they decrease public order penalties due to squalor, which keeps your towns happy). As for your money problem, if you dont want too much of it there are a few options:

1) Dont build the higher level markets (Great Forum/Curia) etc in too many of your cities.

2) If rebels appear in your territory somewhere, just leave them there. Their pillaging (the "blackened earth" effect) will decrease your income dramatically in that city.

3) Build a huge navy of quinquiremes and just stick it in the corner of the map
somewhere to avoid cheapness (naval units have high upkeep costs)

4) Same as 3, except use the land units with the highest upkeep costs (Arcani, Urban Cohorts etc)

5) Have diplomats lurking around the territory of some retarded faction you'd like to buff/get an alliance with, and just give them cash whenever you feel like it.


Summary Section:

1) Dont build farms beyond the 2nd level (i think it starts with land clearance, then irrigation or something)

2) Build temples of Jupiter in most cities - they dont give a population growth bonus, but have a phat bonus to law and public order. Building temples of Ceres or Bacchus can increase growth too much, and Bacchus will give you drunken generals.

3) Build all the aqueducts you can.

4). Build colosseums and circus maximi to conduct monthly/daily races and gladiatorial games. This is really effective in freshly conquered cities.

5) Keep taxes as high as you can without pissing people off and/or incurring excessively shit population growth/loss. If you want more growth you can lower the taxes as you see fit.

6) Some cities have naturally shit levels of farming. You can check this in the city status screen. If you hover your mouse over the top row of wheat icons it will give you the natural growth rate due to farming in the city. Some provinces like ones in Egypt start at 4% without any improvements - obviously you wouldnt want to be building any farm improvements there. Others however will start on a paltry 0.5 or 1%; in this case i'd recommend buildng the first 2 farming levels at least. Most of them however will be around the 1.5-2% level, so you can build a couple of levels of farms in them.

7) Extremely important . When you conquer a city from a different culture, you must demolish all the buildings you can or else you may receive nasty public order penalties - this is most prevalent when taking over large, well-developed cities. For example, if i as a Roman take over a Gallic city, you should destroy their temples, taverns, barracks, stables, everything. However, you may want to leave this for a couple of turns if you need to retrain troops using their facilities. Anyway, temples are the most important; tear down those barbarian temples and replace them with temples of Jupiter asap. Of course these penalties wouldnt apply if you took over a fellow Roman city . You can check the culture penalty level in the city status screen of course. Lastly, culture penalties are usually only completely erased when you build the next level of palace over the top of the old one (governors palace etc), since you cant demolish the existing ones.

My build order for a freshly conquered barbarian city would be as follows:
1) Retrain whatever troops i can in the city
2) Demolish everything i can
3) As many temples of jupiter as are allowed by the city size
4) Roads to allow quick resupply
5) Arena for gladiatorial games

8) Generals with the highest influence (green laurel wreathes) are able to keep cities happier when garrisoned there. A good short term measure if a city is revolting and you need time to build temples etc.

9. Play on medium/hard campaign map
 

Greatatlantic

Erudite
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
1,683
Location
The Heart of It All
Rome: Total War is Real Time battles with a campaign map to give some of them context. If you aren't playing for the battles, then you would do much better to pick another game. With this in mind, the fact the campaign is so weak makes sense. I'm not trying to excuse the design flaws, I'm just tryinig to point out what sort of game this is.

That being said, there is still room for some management of cities and economies. Easy mode is designed so people who never played strategy games could play and do win. Thats doubly true if you play as a Roman faction, since they have several natural advantages. If you find yourself with to much money, your best bet is to build troops. The more troops you have, the higher your expenditures. If noghint else, Town Watch units can be built quickly, cheaply and any unit garrisoned will reduce public order. I never had much trouble with citiy management this way.

In fact, my second biggest gripe with this game is how many units you are allowed to have relative to how many can be used in a single battle. This is why the beginning portions of the game are my favorite, as individual battles matter. Later, you could send 4 or 5 armies of 20 units a apiece and it would still only be a fraction of your total army. Takes all the drama out of fighting. My biggest gripe, though, is how poorly sieges are played out. I always opt to try to starve out my opponents unless I really need to hurry.
 

Slith

Scholar
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
231
Location
West Coast, Canada
Download and install Rome Total Realism Platinum Edition, it's a bit less stable than Gold, but also has some improvements. Platinum Edition also runs under Barbarian Invasion, and doing so will improve the AI somewhat.

Second to Rome Total Realism Platinum Edition is the Four Turns Per Year mod which does exactly as the name describes. It also changes the traits you get for your generals, giving them ranks in the army over time. For the first 10 years your general is a Tribune and gets something like a +1 morale bonus to his troops. After those ten years are over, he'll be promoted to the next rank, and so on until he reaches consul, with each subsequent rank giving different bonuses. Certain ranks also allow you to get things like the consular banner in the generals entourage. [He needs to be a consul of course.] Which also adds an additional +1 morale.

Also in RTR, the units themselves have changed dramatically. Many ahistorical units have been removed [war dogs, those female britons with the cleavers, exploding pigs, etc.] while others have been rebalanced, and a few new ones added.

Economically, you can still make buttloads of cash, but in order to do so, you need good control over the shores of the mediterranean. It's also more difficult to have 5 or 6 fully stacked armiees running about. [Usually having 3 or 4 plus troops in your cities tends to either put you in debt, or leave you with very little income.]

There's also an enormous change to recruitment. When you capture an enemy city, you can't produce units there right away, first you need to construct 3 levels of auxilia. With the fourth building being a Roman barracks which also allows recruitment of some native troops. [For example, in Crete, you can recruit Cretan archers, while in Gual, you can recruit Gallic Auxilia.]

Personally, I couldn't ever go back to playing the vanilla version of the game.
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
Where is the Platinum Edition?

Also, does it work with running the original RTW campaign (or does it require that you play that)?

I like BI's updates, but I like the old campaign a little more.
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
Scipii are the 'Normal' difficulty of the Romans, so playing on easy is...easy.


It's something like:
Julii -one difficulty rank
Scipii =equal difficulty rank
Brutii +one difficulty rank

i.e.

Julii on Medium = Easy
Scipii on Medium = Medium
Brutii on Medium = Hard


Thats basically how the difficulties round out, factions are + or - your initial difficulty choice.
 

Slith

Scholar
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
231
Location
West Coast, Canada
LlamaGod said:
Where is the Platinum Edition?

Also, does it work with running the original RTW campaign (or does it require that you play that)?

I like BI's updates, but I like the old campaign a little more.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55808

[All the neccessary files are listed and linked to below.]
It is not the same RTW campaign, but it's pretty similar. Instead of 3 roman factions, there's just one. You can play as any civilization you want, and the goal is to conquer the world.


_________________________________

Installation process to get running under Barbarian Invasion:

1. Install Rome Total War
2. Install Barbarian Invasion
3. Install RTW 1.5 and BI 1.6 Patches
4. Install Rome Total Realism v1.4
5. Install Rome Total Realism 1.6 Patch

Change the Barbarian Invasion shortcut target line to:
Code:
"C:\Games\Rome Total War\RomeTW-BI.exe" -show_err -mod
[Edit: All you should be adding to the shortcut is the -show_err and -mod]
[Second Edit: Platinum runs under Barbarian Invasion, but it was designed for RTW 1.5. So play BI at your own risk.]

_________________________________

Some mods that I happen to enjoy:
- Four Turns Per Year
This mod is almost a must-have. Note: It is not compatable with the Roman Cognomen Mod in the 1.6 Optional Add-on Pack.

-SPQR Praetorians
This is a personal mod I did [the skins and model are not mine] and doesn't have an auto-installer, but it does come with a readme to guide you through the installation process. [Edit: -image link]

- Platinum Edition 1.6 Optional Add-on Pack
Contains a bunch of small mods for Platinum. Note: The Roman Cognomen Mod and the 4TPY mod don't work well together.
 

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
Thanks everyone and especially Nutcracker for the walkthrough.

I'm going to start again. I just find it weird that farms, forums and population are a bad thing...

The interface also annoyed me a bit. I am more used to the isometric/fake 3D look.
 

Slith

Scholar
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
231
Location
West Coast, Canada
Eh, destroying your farms and such in RTR would actually be a 'bad thing' as they help you get much more money. [Which you'll desperately need.]

Basically, the guides on places like gamespy or wherever only apply to the vanilla version of the game.
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
hey cool, thanks for telling me about platinum

I really liked RTR and havent played the game in awhile because there was no 1.5 RTW/BI version of it yet.

I remember when the mod first started and hanging out in their old chat room with the guys making it. I provided a few small things to it early on.


I lost interest in the game once they revealed the really really shitty bugs, around the time CA got bought by Sega. CA refused to fix it because they wernt getting paid for it and instead fixed it with their expansion (which also added stuff cut from the original game, roofles). After a week of the expansion being out, they finally released a patch for RTW (after of course, people bought the expansion).


RTR is how RTW SHOULD HAVE BEEN, sorta like a RTW before CA went and become whores.
 

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
I restarted in BI and have got to fifty years as the Franks on medium difficulty without any craziness. I had to single-handedly destroy both the Huns and the Goths (or Vandals?) because apparently nobody else cares.

Seboss said:
Why is a lot of money a bad thing in RTW ?

A lot of money makes you lazy and corrupt. You get more negative character traits.
 

Seboss

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 27, 2006
Messages
947
sheek said:
Seboss said:
Why is a lot of money a bad thing in RTW ?

A lot of money makes you lazy and corrupt. You get more negative character traits.
Hmm, that makes sense. I did not care for character traits so far.

foneco said:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56368

There is only 1!
Is it me or does that sound too good to be true ? And that name, Darth mod, wtf ?
 

Stalin

Scholar
Joined
May 27, 2006
Messages
497
Location
Sweden baby!
Yes the poor greek boy really thinks he is the sith lord. throws a tantrum if you call him nick. The mod is one of the most overrated along with rtr
 

RuySan

Augur
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
777
Location
Portugal
Playing Rome and not playing the battles is retarded. If you want to build an empire only, play another game instead.
 

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