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I want another game like Wiz 8(stomp my feet, pull my hair)

Shagnak

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And by that I hope you mean Heroes of Might and Magic...otherwise I question your sanity.

Anyways, at least we can be thankful that the Wizardry series went out on a high. Rather that than slowly wither with each incarnation and then die in a cesspool of blandness like the Might and Magic games.
 

whatusername

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I also heard Laid Back Gaming almost got the rights, but Bethesda offered more money so the person who holds the rights is now considering Beth.
 

Shagnak

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HanoverF said:
I hear Bethesda is trying to aquire the rights...
Eeek. I hope not.
I imagine a Bethesda'ed Wizardry to look a lot like that pile of crap known as Dungeon Lords, but with extra bloom.



whatusername said:
I also heard Laid Back Gaming almost got the rights
Well, at least there would be a hope of something a bit more faithful to the Wizardry way of doing things, in terms of gameplay style. They would be less likely to transform it into a single player action-game.
But I can't imagine ex-Troika dudes wanting to use something as fruitcake as the Wizardry universe. Doesn't seem like McCarthy's "thing".
 
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Of course Wiz 8 had many flaws, and it seems like most of the highly revered RPGs are chock full of em. But we perservere and put up with their detriments because the things they get right are so attractive and fulfilling. I know it sounds lame and overly romantic, but a great RPG warts and all is high art. Most of us have become so used to the medocrity that is shoved down our throats, and I'm now gagging and puking up all of the horrible things I've been exposed to. I'm just so used to being let down now, i.e. the new TES and the new Tool album.
 

TheGreatGodPan

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Right now I'm listening to Machine Gun (Second Take) by the Peter Brotzmann Octet. Not very accessible, that.

Old Tool was pretty good.

I've got Wiz 4 on my computer, but haven't really tried it out yet. I didn't like the Wiz 8 demo. The "blog with arms and legs" idea doesn't seem too good to me.
 

Lord Chambers

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Wizardry 8 ended for me the first time when I was traipsing around Arnika and got tired of killing robot wankers. The game wasn't what I expected. It ended for the the second time up in the boughs of Trynton when I actually couldn't get past the whateverthefucks that kept rock wipping me and making my Lizard insane.

I definetely dug challenging combat. It's pretty rare in games these days to have to pay attention. I play most with the TV on. However, Wizardry 8 is loaded with those kind of battles, and so I could only play 20-40 minutes at a time before I started getting reckless.

Oh, and plus I was spoiled to hell by some Wizardry forums and knew all these powergaming tricks that took the exploration out of the game for me.
 

Elwro

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Lord Chambers said:
Wizardry 8 ended for me the first time when I was traipsing around Arnika and got tired of killing robot wankers.
Same here. One of the most boring, dull and slow games of all time. With shitty leveling system on top.
 

FrancoTAU

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The leveling system was great once you got past Arnika. It'll drive you nuts once you leave the monastery until you clear out Arnika.

Anywho, I'm actually surprised by the amount of haters here. I recommend getting that speed up battle fanmade patch and forcing yourself to get to Arnika and buying equipment. If you still hate it after that than stick with Final Fantasy or Oblivion.
 

Stalin

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It's my favourite RPG game and only one i played through more than twice. Combat was lonng but you really had to plan and micromanage to stay alive. I loved the retro feel of the game and it's the only RPG game i still have in my collection.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Ah, nostalgia alert. Duck and cover.

Wizardry 8.
The best 'modern' old-school RPG there is. Maybe even the only one. From the comments of those of you that don't like it, I gather that your beefs with the game result from the combat, the story and the levelled monsters. I will try to address each of those points and present my perspectives. Also, I will go off on tangents to rave about the nostalgic value of this game.

The combat:
Fighting three groups of 6 to 8 monsters each whose turns take ages to complete might not be the pinnacle of suspense and action, I will grant you that. But the combat was deep. It was tactical. Maybe it was pretty boring, but it was also challenging and offered many, many options. Every party used other tactics in combat, and the game was very open when it came to the party creation.
Just think: It did not only have formations and weapon ranges and a plethora of spells which were all actually useful, no: It also had enemies that would employ quite a vast scope of tactics to keep it difficult and interesting. I don't remember an RPG with better combat. Seriously, I don't - maybe I haven't played enough, but this game's combat lacked nothing in my eyes.
But it was boring. Very boring at times. Fighting 14 lizard-things that creep at you in slow motion is not fun, I will admit that. Luckily, there is a mod that speeds up combat by about 50 times. Still: It was too slow.

The story:
Well, this point is difficult without spoiling anything. The story is... old-school. No fancy, modern cutscene storytelling. No, you get most of the story by dialogue and by reading, and you will miss most of it if you don't know which questions to type and which keywords to use. Also, you /will/ be completely unable to appreciate it if you haven't played Wizardry seven. Seriously. In Wizardry 8, the story will not be told to you - you have to hunt for it yourself, by going to the right places and asking the right questions. This, again, is just like in 7 and very old-school. Me, I like that. It takes work, but the rewards were manifold. Also, it has a nice final plot-twist.

Levelled monsters:
Well. I haven't played Oblivion, so I don't know how not to do it, but I know that Wiz 8 did it right: Combat never became too easy in most areas due to monsters that mercilessly became stronger with you. At the beginning, when one starts out in the Monastery (or at the T'Rang/Umpani HQ) and travels to Arnika (might very well be the most difficult portion of the game), one still believes it gets easier once you level. It doesn't, except for some areas, which have a maximum level of monsters.
Well, this has some drawbacks: One doesn't get the 'I am TEH MASTER!!111' vibe one usually gets at high levels. But this is somewhat compensated by the satisfaction that each successful battle was well-earned.
Does this make the game too difficult?
No, unless you are a, sorry, pussy. 7 was harder. 4 was insane. Even 1, which was almost a party-based rogue-like without randomization in some regards, was much harder. Still, it's not an easy game. It's a good challenge for a fan of old RPGs.

To summarize:
This game feels OLD. It felt old when it was released, and it still feels old. It has the classic 'party=blob' feeling of the old games. It is as difficult as the old games. The story is... well, it was presented just like the story in six and seven, just more fleshed out. It /feels/ old-school. This is something I /love/. I weep at the thought that such games are no more, and Wizardry 8 was like the last, mighty roar of an ancient, venerable dragon who is doomed to die and perish. It's true - you can't appreciate it without patience and determination. But the rewards are greater: It's a trip back in time, and it should put a smile onto the face every RPG fan of the old days.
If you haven't done so, get 6, 7 and 8, and play them all, with the same party, importing them from one game to another. You will be surprised how rewarding it will be to beat those great games!
 

Stalin

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Adding the possibility to type in your own kewords/questions in dialogues (and have the NPC answer if they knew) was a pure genius in the days of 2 choice dialogue trees.
 

Elwro

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Well, Wizardry 8 was the only game before Oblivion that gave me the "what's the point of leveling if the world levels with you" feeling of nonsense. Mind you, I've played Daggerfall for years and never got such an impression.

I'll try it again sometime, but the fact there were hordes of robots in Arnika and noone save me cared about it (iirc) was another factor that let me down.
I remember something like that:
*enters a town after a boring walk*
*OK, quite nice, now where should I go*
*hm what are those creatures on the horizon*
*OMG wtf robots run for your life!*
enters an inn after a not-so-easy fight
"Why hello there, that's a nice fireplace isn't it? Wanna eat/drink/sleep?"
"BUT ROBOTS"
"WTF? Eat, drink, sleep?"
sighs
*Heals, tries to kill the hordes of robots resigns after a few pointless and boring fights*
 

FrancoTAU

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The thing with the leveling up with you is that there was a floor and ceiling for each area.

After you cleared out half the game if you went back to Arnika/Monstarery area you will neither have a difficult time or easy go at it. If you went back after clearing out most of the game these areas would be easy for you since the monsters have a level cap.

After a certain point, monsters stop leveling up with you and become easier. It's not a perfect system as it royally fucks you up in the beginning of the game before you get decent equipment, but it's the best attempt at keeping a sandbox, go anywhere RPG challenging in later stages of the game.
 

Elwro

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Hm. Come to think of it, Daggerfall was a bit too easy during the endgame phase. So the situation was opposite.
I guess there's still room for improvement in the "world levels with you" experience systems. But my opinion is the best improvement would be to dump it completely. I don't see a reason for implementing it at all.
 

Shagnak

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Elwro said:
I guess there's still room for improvement in the "world levels with you" experience systems. But my opinion is the best improvement would be to dump it completely. I don't see a reason for implementing it at all.
As pointed out directly above, and in my earlier post, the world doesn't level with you.
It's nothing like Oblivion.
It's area-dependent - each area has a minimum and maximum for levels. Come back to an area considerably later and you will find that you can completely dominate it. Go to an area that should be too difficult for you at your level, and it is.
It meant that areas were a challenge for a longer period of play. If an area was too hard, you could still go back later, when more powerful, and be more successful.

You won't be able to rush ahead at low level and be more successful in areas where it doesn't make sense that you are, and you won't have to come back to areas at considerably higher levels and find that the bandits are now Nessies.

Some unique monster encounters don't level at all.

Don't align it with Oblivion's world-covering level scaling, it ain't nothing like it.
 

Direwolf

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I played it quite a lot when it first came out. Enjoyed it very much, I was about half way through the game and one of my saves got corrupted. Left me with about 5-6 hours of gameplay I had to do all over again. Could not bring myself to do that. Haven't seen the game since.
 

Elwro

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The TES system also has different leveling schemes for each region. (At least in Morrowind, I have not fiddled with Oblivion's editor yet.) And it also has caps. For example, I just checked the Leveled Creature lists in Morrowind: in Ascadian Isles, after achieving level 9 you won't meet anything stronger than a Netch. So at level 20 you can "completely dominate" the region, as you wrote. On Azura's Coast the strongest creature that can appear is the Daedroth, the possibility of which is triggered by you achieving level 16. In Molag Mar - you can even meet a Golden Saint or a Winged Twilight when you're level 19 or more.

Different regions, different lists, different caps. Sound just like what you guys described in Wizardry.

Of course, if you tell me that in Oblivion it's something completely different, I'll have to believe you as I've not tinkered with the toolset yet.
 

Shagnak

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Elwro said:
Of course, if you tell me that in Oblivion it's something completely different, I'll have to believe you as I've not tinkered with the toolset yet.
Yes, Morrowind's does sound similar, if that is the case. Though I think Wiz8's levelling goes beyond that, it includes random items as well.

And yes, I'm trying to say that Oblivions scaling is fucked - there have been 100's of posts to this effect. Whether this is due to a totally different method of levelling, or that they've completely fucked up an existing method of levelling, I don't know.

Testament to the crap levelling is that in Oblivion you can race ahead at low levels and beat the game easily. You cannot do this in Wiz8.

Areas that should be difficult in Oblivion will be easy if you go to them at low enough level (e.g. Oblivion gates or dungeons), this does not happen in Wiz8 or Morrowind.
Areas that should be logically "low level" are suddenly populated by ubar beasties if you go to them at high level.Low level ones dissappear or something.

"Boss" creatures that should be kick-ass will be weak weenies if you meet them at low enough level in Oblivion. This does not happen in Wiz8 or Morrowind.

The net effect is that Oblivion seems to level the entire world to your level. (Admittedly, I haven't finished the game. But the effect so far is utterly surreal)

Man, I don't know what to say. there are 6 months worth of posts you haven't been reading or soemthing.
 

Elwro

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No, sorry, you're right. I somehow totally forgot about the "low-level racing". I guess that's the main difference.
 

DemonKing

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HanoverF said:
I hear Bethesda is trying to aquire the rights...

Why would Beth want the rights to Wizardry when they already have a mega-selling fantasy series of their own?

I mean Fallout I can understand, but unless they want to get into party-based CRPGs I can't see the point of them having the Wizardry license.
 

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