Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

RPGs with cool failure states

Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
If Barry Lyndon were an RPG, it would likely be a perfect example. The protagonist fails and screws up several times but manages his way out of his failures and shortcomings, instead of winning his way all the way. I wish RPGs did that often.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Yeah, that's the thing with CRPGs. Most of them are designed with only success in mind, failure locks you from content or ends with a game over screen. Games praised for C&C basically just have different paths for succeeding in different ways.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
20,856
Location
Привислинский край
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pistols are popamole weapons even womyn or children can use without any problem but for blades you need couple of weeks to earn basic stances, parades and attacks... Not to mention you can brake your wrist if you will try to use as chopping axe. :obviously: Morrowind and Arcanum were right you better throw stones than use blade you have no idea about.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
KoDP had a lot of "extended" events, where you would do something and then it would either bite you in the ass or help you out several seasons later. Sometimes both. Half the fun of the game IMO.

Sengoku Rance (and Kichikuou Rance) had entire alternate routes and you often got special characters and stuff after "failure".

Agree that true RPGs are generally not the best place to do a lot of this. Same old excuse about how it takes too much dev time to create C&C, except now 99.9% of players won't do your "bad" choice since they have Power Word: Reload.
 

Jed

Cipher
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
3,287
Location
Tech Bro Hell
It's likely all scripted, but I've been playing the Game of Thrones RPG this week, and there is a lot of failure states that I've had to go through. Even if scripted, it's all done pretty well:
allies betray you left & right, you get imprisoned & tortured, you have to go through some difficult escapes through enemy territory--things rarely go as planned.

It's all very fitting for GRRM's setting, though--ATOI&F is all about failure & grimdark consequences ...
 

bozia2012

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
3,309
Location
Amigara Fault
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again!
It's likely all scripted, but I've been playing the Game of Thrones RPG this week, and there is a lot of failure states that I've had to go through. Even if scripted, it's all done pretty well:
allies betray you left & right, you get imprisoned & tortured, you have to go through some difficult escapes through enemy territory--things rarely go as planned.

It's all very fitting for GRRM's setting, though--ATOI&F is all about failure & grimdark consequences ...
GoT is a boring game in terms of combat, but the story kicks ass. Everyone has some hidden motives here, so vouching for people is often a mistake. You make an investigation and you're pretty sure someone is innocent and then the game leaves you in snow with your pants down.

I also wonder if this is all fluid (as in -> you always choose the wrong option) or the script is set. I'll be replaying the game soon and checking different routes to see what's the deal.

It has probably the most brutal and unforgiving script so far, it even features
child rape and murder
...you can only hear it, but it's no less disturbing.

The graphics are all over the scale - the armours and many character faces are superb, but in general it looks so 2005.

PS Play the Beyond the Wall DLC - it's only one quest, but pure awesomness.
 

copx

!Copx went away forever for almost a week
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
22
It's likely all scripted, but I've been playing the Game of Thrones RPG this week, and there is a lot of failure states that I've had to go through. Even if scripted, it's all done pretty well:
allies betray you left & right, you get imprisoned & tortured, you have to go through some difficult escapes through enemy territory--things rarely go as planned.

It's all very fitting for GRRM's setting, though--ATOI&F is all about failure & grimdark consequences ...
That's not what I'm talking about though. If failure is unavoidable, then it's not you paying the consequences for fucking up: It's just another chapter in the story, and usually a bad one because cutscenes are usually used to force your character into dumb shit.
 

Turisas

Arch Devil
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
9,926
GoT is a boring game in terms of combat, but the story kicks ass.

Does it have some über cookie cutter build if you're just in it for the story, then? I've had the game for ages but it keeps drifting further and further down on my backlog.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
In the Lone Wolf series after your jedi kai has killed dozens of fierce warriors, evil undead, gigantic serpents and abominations with his Infinity+1 Sword, he enters a mine shaft and encounters 1 random dwarf. The dwarf proceeds to impale your companion in the chest with a pickaxe than immediately blows your head off with a musket. No fight, no save.
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,706
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
Well, the one that haunts me to this day is from Wasteland. One was in a hotel where you give the security card to Headcrusher. (It's been a while.) You go visit a girl in her room and talk to her through the door. You can accidentally start a fight with her, if you don't use your skills correctly. Once you win, you find out she is in a wheelchair and you probably should have handled it differently. Man, did I feel like shit after that fight, and the game did me no favors by doing its best to make me feel like garbage. How the hell was I to know, I just assumed I would have to fight. That poor kid...

Also, I figure with folks being short-sighted and always wanting the best reward from a quest, if you put in an interesting result from a failed quest that may not make itself manifest until 3 hours later, most folks would never see it. A lot of people would save-scum as they have been conditioned to do. While developers in the past may have put more effort into different endings and C&C, now it's either you do it right or you reload.
 

bozia2012

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
3,309
Location
Amigara Fault
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again!
GoT is a boring game in terms of combat, but the story kicks ass.

Does it have some über cookie cutter build if you're just in it for the story, then? I've had the game for ages but it keeps drifting further and further down on my backlog.
Just play on lowest difficulty and choose aoe classes - magnar and water dancer. This should make the fights faster thusless boring.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

Scholar
Joined
Jul 16, 2011
Messages
502
Final Fantasy 6 had these Zone Eater enemies on this one island. They have a lot of HP (still killed easy enough) and most often suck in one of your party per turn. You can kill the thing and cut your consumed party out...... or let it suck your entire party all the way down to it's stomach (perhaps all Zone Eaters are the heads of a Sarlac-like beast?), a secret cave-like dungeon with unique enemies, loot, and one of the most fun and the game's most customizable party member. Also, this fail-state is repeatable in case you just want hang out there and battle the area's enemies.
 

copx

!Copx went away forever for almost a week
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
22
Dragon Age: Origins almost managed this, but then they had to ruin it by making failure almost guaranteed. In the Rescue the Queen quest, if you lose the fight to Cauthrien, you get a new quest (Captured!) where your character is in prison and you get to choose - either your main character breaks out or you play as your other party members rescuing your char.
There's another thing I forgot to mention here. It bothers me when a failure state is easily reversible like this. It doesn't feel like paying the price of fucking up when you get to pick up right where you left off once you finish the quest. At the very least, I think your lost gear and shit shouldn't've been recoverable. Maybe the prison can offer you some other decent or even a few good pieces of loot, but your character shouldn't be able to recover everything they lost so easily.

In the Lone Wolf series after your jedi kai has killed dozens of fierce warriors, evil undead, gigantic serpents and abominations with his Infinity+1 Sword, he enters a mine shaft and encounters 1 random dwarf. The dwarf proceeds to impale your companion in the chest with a pickaxe than immediately blows your head off with a musket. No fight, no save.
1) Lose the TVTropes-speak. I've read the site too, and it's not that good. The only thing you're doing is being more annoying to read.
2) See, that's what we call a C&C dead end, not "suffering new shit," and this dead end sounds pretty stupid to me. I'm all for letting idiots hang themselves with the rope you've given them, but this doesn't make any sense.
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
Location
Insert clever insult here
Not RPG's but both Sid Meier's Pirates and Mount & Blade feature instances where you lose a battle, end up captured by your enemy and then have to escape. Basically you have start from the bottom again. Many players probably reload but it's also a good challenge to see how quickly you can rebuild.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
1) Lose the TVTropes-speak. I've read the site too, and it's not that good. The only thing you're doing is being more annoying to read.
2) See, that's what we call a C&C dead end, not "suffering new shit," and this dead end sounds pretty stupid to me. I'm all for letting idiots hang themselves with the rope you've given them, but this doesn't make any sense.

Spare me the spoiled brat routine and skip my posts in the future.
 

bhlaab

Erudite
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
1,787
Not a fan of the "you get captured and all your equipment gets taken away!" scenario. I understand the logical/roleplaying reason why that might happen, but in terms of gameplay it just sucks.

"Hey, your build and playstyle have been carefully crafted over X amount of hours based on this set of equipment. But what sorts of interesting things happen if we take that equipment away?"
"Oh, you are forced to do things you have specifically specced yourself to be bad at. That's less interesting than we initially foresaw!"
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
I see nothing wrong with that (capture and loss of equipment) as long as the player had the chance to prevent that. Now if that happened via cutscene paralysis, then that's awful design, no doubt.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,326
Location
Flowery Land
Way of the Samurai generally has "failed" path branches for one reason or another. One of interest is the bad version of the Sayo ending in 2: Failing to protect Sayo during the festival results in a scene showing how you've screwed up. While most players would reload, you'll likely want to save after it at least once, as it is both a unique ending in your logbook, and it is the only ending you can get without killing anyone (Which gives you a title also required for the ultimately pointless 100% play)
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
F.A.T.A.L. cRPG would probably have very cool failure states :D .

It has probably the most brutal and unforgiving script so far, it even features
child rape and murder
...you can only hear it, but it's no less disturbing.
You get disturbed by things you hear about in a game :what: ?
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
181
Not a fan of the "you get captured and all your equipment gets taken away!" scenario. I understand the logical/roleplaying reason why that might happen, but in terms of gameplay it just sucks.

"Hey, your build and playstyle have been carefully crafted over X amount of hours based on this set of equipment. But what sorts of interesting things happen if we take that equipment away?"
"Oh, you are forced to do things you have specifically specced yourself to be bad at. That's less interesting than we initially foresaw!"

Relevant Crosspost from the Goldbox thread:


So I was saying that Pools of Darkness compared to Pool of Radiance in terms of enjoyability, but I'm beginning to run into the same issues that high-level dungeons and dragons always ran into which is making encounters interesting. Either they send a ton of low level creatures after the party, or they send the same high-level creatures over and over again. The game became a chore at the dragon dungeon since the victor was always the one who had initiative. If my spellcasters went before the dragons it was a quick victory on my side, and vice versa. I also used the same tactics against dragons each and every time, which was to sling fireballs, since even red dragons take damage from such.

The best encounters so far have been those that have mixed character classes to oppose my party since there is some diversity of tactics. My favorite recent encounter is when the computer sends drow spellcasters along with poisonous spiders. I can't ignore the spiders since being poisoned means my death, but I can't ignore the spellcasters because of their area of effect spells. This encounter did a good job of keeping me on edge.

I had an interesting dungeon crawl where my weapons and equipment were all taken away from me do to dungeon master fiat cosmic forces that would destroy them if I brought them along to another dimension. I had to rely almost solely on my spellcasters until I killed a party of evil adventurers and wore their stuff. I don't like it when the game decides I'm too powerful and takes away my things, even if for only a brief interlude, but I will admit it made things much more difficult.

YMMV it seems.

While it might certainly be inconvenient for the player who plows with his carefully min-maxed badass Barbarian through hordes of bad guys to suddenly have his equipment taken away from him, I would hesitate to declare such a situation as teh suck by default. E.g. some of the most memorable moments from the Realms of Arkania games consist mostly of the developers throwing curveballs at the player.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
Depends on whether the system is built on spergy Rube Goldberg pre-req rat's nest character builds that fall apart if you don't have the essential cogs. If it's some system based on quasi-realism (e.g. GURPS system, where you can default skills and improvise equipment) or if the system is mostly equipment-based roles (e.g. a suppression LMG guy vs. a sniper in JA2) it will be fine.
 

bozia2012

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
3,309
Location
Amigara Fault
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again!
F.A.T.A.L. cRPG would probably have very cool failure states :D .

It has probably the most brutal and unforgiving script so far, it even features
child rape and murder
...you can only hear it, but it's no less disturbing.
You get disturbed by things you hear about in a game :what: ?
Immersion™

You can't be disturbed by suggestive fiction - only snuff and shit from /b/?
 

gromit

Arcane
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,771
Location
Gentrification Station
If Barry Lyndon were an RPG, it would likely be a perfect example. The protagonist fails and screws up several times but manages his way out of his failures and shortcomings, instead of winning his way all the way. I wish RPGs did that often.
I'm overdue for another viewing, but I always felt he screws and fails up many times, and then lucks / wins his way around those failures. He keeps digging holes for himself, and then takes the first convenient "way out" that appears / falls into his lap... thus, never learning a single damned lesson until it's too late: he's just in time for wisdom, mercy, and a desire for lasting peace to cost him everything but his life.

But yes, picaresques are a dream setting for C&C, and RPGs in general.
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
Immersion™

You can't be disturbed by suggestive fiction - only snuff and shit from /b/?
Well, in games, extreme violence and depravity kinda come with the territory.

For example I've read memoirs of a sex slave recently and they made my blood boil at moments and some stuff was shocking because it was *real*.
In a virtual world I can flip from white knighting to worst depravities at whim. Actually some time ago I had that problem with cRPGs where at some point I would just start killing towns for fun and it often derailed my character.
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
489
Location
Singapore
Planescape Torment is mentioned already but I don't think dying in it is as cool a 'failure state' as being an asshole and trying to find out how pissed off you can get the Lady of Pain before what is inferred to in in-game text about her victims actually happens to you. Well, you eventually find out the developers scripted something like that indeed. Clue: maze.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom