Spiderweb Spiderweb games

[gunman]

I loved indie games such as Eschalon and KotC, both for their graphics and for gameplay mechanics - KotC greate combat, Eschalon nice implementation of survival skills - and now I was contemplating buying some Spiderwebs games from gog, like Avernum and Avadon.
Some screenshots looks nice (especially from the more recent games) but can't figure much about the game mechanics and how they play on long term. Have they some hidden qualities revealed only after you start playing them?

 

[Dayyālu]

Well. First, you do not play Vogel games for 'mechanics'. They're about...different things. I'll try to give my inferior opinion.

Avoid Avadon.
It's Bioware-lite. Not jocking- the writing is painful at times and the game system is pretty much oversimplified. It's mediocre compared to other games from Vogel, but it sold a lot thanks to superior support (Steam) and so it's now his standard formula.

Avernum, it depends on what you're talking about. I've played some of the older Exile and the first wave of Avernum remakes (I haven't pirated aquired the new Avernum remake, however). They're nice little games, worthy as a time waster. On the style of the first generation of Avernum/Exile remakes I prefer Nethergate. Cool setting - if you can stand simplified' historical' research.

The only series that shine is Geneforge. Mechanics are simple (as usual) but effective, but the best part is decision-making.In Geneforge you can choose anyone, betray anyone. You're free, and I still have to find a game that equals it. The setting is also nice- magitek with some random pseudoethic problems about life&creation of life. Plus Shapers are the best bunch of oppressive mages ever, For your own good!
And it's hilarious how different factions evolve through the series, often changing their ethics totally, or being absolutely clueless about real events in the 'past' that you've played in previous games (Trajkovites, for example).A nice touch.

In short, Avoid Avadon, maybe Avernum/Exile if ya like solid stuff, Geneforge is the way. If you want to test one.... the weakest of the series is Geneforge 3, my personal favourite is Geneforge 2, but the most rewarding/skillfully crafted is Geneforge 5.

 

[Metro]

Most people on the Codex -- including myself -- tend to hate Vogel's games with the exception of the Geneforge seriese.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Most people on the Codex -- including myself -- tend to hate Vogel's games with the exception of the Geneforge seriese.

 

[JarlFrank]

In short, Avoid Avadon, maybe Avernum/Exile if ya like solid stuff, Geneforge is the way. If you want to test one.... the weakest of the series is Geneforge 3, my personal favourite is Geneforge 2, but the most rewarding/skillfully crafted is Geneforge 5.

Also Geneforge 5 is the easiest on the eyes of all them. Most of the earlier Vogel games look like puke. I don't mind bad graphics but most of his games just look eyes-hurtingly bad, it's probably the colour scheme I guess.

 

[betamin]

Geneforge is the best of Vogel's games, 2, 4 and 5 are the best in the series IMO.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Exile and Geneforge. The rest is too horrible decline.

 

[catfood]

I have only played the first Geneforge and I remember liking it a lot. I appreciated the non-linearity, the C&C, some of the mechanics (lockpicking for example) and even the rudimentary TB combat. Also the setting and exploration was awesome which is something that I, as an explorationfag, greatly dig. I would recommend playing it as a shaper, or at the very least a guardian, since summoning is one of the core mechanics of the game.

 

[Micmu]

First 3 Avernums aren't that bad, really. They're more dungeon crawler-ish than Geneforge. Especially A3 is awesome because of its impressive size.
Also, what others said, avoid latest jeff's excrements starting from avadon, he clearly lost it and now makes ipad crap for eaware audience only. And remakes of remakes of remakes of remakes, each more dumbed down than the previous, in ipad ultracasual format.

 

[sea]

I have played Avadon and some of the Avernum games.

Avadon is not horrendous as some say, but it's undone by being extremely boring. The story stuff moves between being painful and cliched, and being surprisingly interesting at times. The big problem is simply that it is stuffed full of filler combat, and everything moves at a snail's pace. You are also are forced to constantly re-visit the same areas multiple times over. There is no real free exploration - you go where the game wants you to, and when. The plot will open an area for you or cut it off, often without any good explanation.

After killing your 1000th giant spider in the forest, you'll want to do yourself in as well. Doesn't help that the combat itself is almost devoid of tactics and that the character system is exceptionally simple - you're looking at Diablo-level complexity, if that. All the followers you have map to a class, which wouldn't be that bad except that if you don't like one of their personalities or builds, you can't swap them out with someone else. Not that it even matters too much, because all classes are capable of doing huge damage and have support abilities as well. The hard difficulty is only hard because it resorts to cheap hidden modifiers on everything, so it's not like that makes it much better, just even more tedious.

I have also played some of Avernum, and it's a lot more fun. The earlier games have a very old-school feel to them in that they are extremely open ended and focused heavily on exploration. There is not much in the way of story or deep dialogue and C&C, however, the underground world you are stuck in is creative, somewhat bleak, and interesting to explore. There are tons and tons of secrets and you succeed not by hitting plot checkmarks but by gaining in power enough to delve into the darkest reaches of the abyss. In the later games, this changes to a more typical story setup, however, the writing and C&C are pretty good so this isn't necessarily a bad thing, just different.

I have yet to play Geneforge or Nethergate, but people seem to think they are Spiderweb's best.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Geneforge 5 is his best game. Start there and see if you like it. Alternatively, try Avernum 3. I wouldn't recommend Avadon.

 

[betamin]

I've heard the Avernum 1 remake is good (not dumbed down).

 

[Kem0sabe]

I liked all of them, some more than others, but i did enjoy Avadon, and Escape from the pit was also fun, but i agree with everyone else than Geneforge is probably one of the best C&C rpg's you can play, amazing game.

 

[Fowyr]

I've heard the Avernum 1 remake is good (not dumbed down).

But Avernum itself is a dumbed down Exile with a little added content (tomb of vahnatai, for example).

 

[Metro]

Most people on the Codex -- including myself -- tend to hate Vogel's games with the exception of the Geneforge seriese.

?

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Most people on the Codex -- including myself -- tend to hate Vogel's games with the exception of the Geneforge seriese.

?

Lots of users here prefer the Exile/Avernum games over the Geneforge series, and as far as I know only the latest Spiderweb games are really hated.

 

[amar0k]

The tileset graphics in Avernum/Avadon are just to awful to be enjoyed, and i tried them all.
But a tileset where your characters are as tall as most trees, all roads look like tiny railroads, simple wooden one floor buildings have rooms much to big to not collapse are awful as fuck.

It just hurts in your brain that there is simply no logic in the visible world of Avernum. Vogel, you suck.. so hard to give the things in your games the right size?

 

[Fowyr]

Play Exile, then. Graphics whore.

 

[doggfookker]

I'll second all of the claims of Geneforge's excellence. I tried playing the first one, but found it a little empty and dry for my taste. For whatever reason I skipped ahead to 4 and absolutely loved it--fantastic C&C and decent characters and exploration. I've played a little of Avernum 5 and the recent remake of the first one--they're decent games, and focus a lot more on exploration and combat while Geneforge is a lot more about story and choices. I have Nethergate, and have played it a little--I actually have all of the Spiderweb games, having impulse-bought them all at once off Steam while I was doped up on morphine after getting surgery--and I found the writing to be subpar is some places, in particular the overly happy spiders who love to squee and are eternal optimists. A lot of the games' writing can be like that, actually, occasionally falling into banal bullshit you'd expect from an introductory creative writing course--or maybe stupid shit out of some fat neckbeard's BS D&D campaign of kawaii lulz. Such moments are mostly few and far between, though.

But anyway, yeah, Geneforge is good shit. I've been meaning to play the 5th one, but haven't gotten around to it. And, really, I'd recommend Nethergate, if only because you don't see many historical-themed RPGs and it's good fun to play as Boudicca-loving Celts destroying some centurion's asses. Or, as gods-fearing centurions smiting the savage shit druids. Nethergate really deserves more recognition, I think. It's a bit more like Avadon is: combat and exploration focused. Seemed a little more linear story-wise, but it has the added benefit of being able to play the story from two different sides, which is kind of cool.

 

[Brayko]

I loved indie games such as Eschalon

Stopped reading there.

 

[Fowyr]

But in the Eschalon you can crash salamanders with portcullises! How cool is that?

 

[lokus]

Eschalon had this nifty feature whereupon the player character wasn't born with the innate ability to draw 100% accurate maps as they walked around, unless of course you took Cartography skill at chargen or purchased a map from a vendor, a feature which afaik is unique to CRPG's.

 

[Brayko]

Well not even the semi-decent writing can save a game with a shitty interface, combat mechanics, and music that grates your brain.

 

[Fowyr]

feature which afaik is unique to CRPG's.

Wizardry 7 had similar skill.

 

[lokus]

feature which afaik is unique to CRPG's.

Wizardry 7 had similar skill.

Cool stuff, I'll figure out how to work DOSBox one of these days.