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Stardock's last chance... Elemental: Fallen Enchantress released

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
The shitstorm is coming...
Kinda think not bro. Vast majority of people don't seem to give a shit about Fallen Enchantress (Codex people and the horrible unwashed masses of the internet), and on the Codex it's already pretty much across the board disliked. Mortmal's blurbs were probably the nicest thing anyone's written about any Elemental game on the Codex. I don't think people feel strongly enough toward it to have a shitstorm. For example, there's more of a shitstorm in the Bioshock Infinite thread, but that's probably due to all the 11/10 reviews which drive up Codex hate because no one in their right mind would think it's that good. Even if you dive into the biggest Elemental hugbox in the world like Quartertothree or the Stardock forums people aren't terribly passionate about it.

And as for playing, I've mostly petered out on the LH beta for now. I'll wait and see if they do anything more with it or if the rest of the beta is just going to be balance tweaks and adding more tactical battle maps and crap. If it is, I'll probably give it a shot again at release to see if it's improved at all and if not I'd probably say Fallen Enchantress is the better game from my perspective. As half-assed as it is.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,684
Age of Wonders 3 is probably gonna steamroll everyone else in the genre when it lands. It is looking too good. And I really wanted to like FE, but it's just way too messy, unfocused of a game right now.
 

covr

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
1,322
Location
Warszawa
Well, shitstorm might be a bad word... it's more like huge disappointment. Because, before every Elemental release (even patches for the first game) I've got some kind of strange hope, that Elemental will rock. It has everything I love about that genre. Everything but soul. Maybe after next 2 expansions I will try it again.
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Oh yeah. Realized I never did get around to taking comparison screenshots. Lemme do that now:

Fallen Enchantress with the same settings (Stylized light enabled, it's listed as enabled in LH too) as LH: http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/867215320846755876/E50772A829A0714C8A479FA11187B8E8324CC83F/

Fallen Enchantress with the same settings but disabled stylized lighting: http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/867215320846757782/EE6C761AF238D93CE0897AE041BBC35CC758A16B/

Legendary Heroes with the same settings and enabled stylized lighting: http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/867215320846689366/7FE6B5BD9AAF9A20523CD166C21537E49AB35672/

Legendary Heroes same settings disabled stylized lighting: http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/867215320846796140/869F48A8894E2477470EBF467531E07CD432E8D4/

:hmmm:
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,844
Location
Lulea, Sweden
Having read the comments here and now played FE I think people here are a bit harsh. I think it is a good solid game now, while before it was a broken disaster. I played it for two whole days and the overall impression was good, even if some things wasn't perfect.
Unfortunately I won't have the time to write a long writeup about what is good and bad as I leave for a long hike in two days, but I might do that when I get back and if frogboy still check this then I will give constructive critisizm.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
Fuck frogboy and his companies piece of shit emails cluttering up my inbox trying to sell me windows 8 apps. How fucking appropriate. A gaming company known for its spreadsheet, soulless shit games, making productivity apps
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Hadn't posted this yet since I was content to let dead enchantresses lie, but here are some updated Legendary Heroes impressions.

Played a game over the weekend on version 0.87. For reference, the current version is 0.90 which is only some bug fixes and adding the scripted campaign. And final release is supposed to be May 22nd so they're probably not going to change much at this point.

Changes between Fallen Enchantress and Legendary Heroes? They added two sovereigns to two factions that existed in Fallen Enchantress but didn't have sovereigns (You could create factions with their blood type of course). They added a handful of new items.
They added a sprinkling of new heroes.
They added something like 15-20 new monsters, such as "Skeleton" and "Skeleton that is on fire" and "Spooky ghost".
They added a few new quests.
They removed the encumbrance system, instead locking items behind proficiencies and giving them flat initiative penalties instead of initiative penalties coming from encumbrance. This also mangled some of the traits in the game, where things that were originally balanced to increase encumbrance were hastily changed to flat attack bonuses without paying attention to it. So there are a couple traits that each give +1 attack and one costs single digit production and the other costs double digit.
They rejiggered the graphics as I've already shown, if it looks better or worse is up for debate.
They rejiggered the combat maps so they're smaller and opposing armies start closer together. They also somewhat half-assed trying to add choke points to the maps so I guess there's that, but they also are inconsistent. On some maps that giant fountain will be blocked terrain, on others units will move through it and stand in it. Variety in the tactical maps has improved since launch but it's still largely the same.
They rejiggered hero recruitment so instead of finding heroes on the map and hiring them for money, you automatically get a hero forced upon you when you hit a "Fame" threshold. Two randomly drawn heroes show up and are selected from fame threshold specific pools, and you pick either one. If you've got nothing but wizards and you draw two more wizards you're shit out of luck.
They rejiggered hero leveling so instead of randomly drawing a selection of skills to choose from (Some being ok, some bad, some ridiculously great) each time a hero levels, you're now stuck with static skill trees. No more deciding to take your hero in a different direction due to a lucky early skill draw. On top of this you have to spend some of your level-ups on item proficiencies if, for example, you want your warrior to wear chainmail or your defender to wear plate. Since leveling in Legendary Heroes is annoyingly slow, spending your level-ups on "+1 attack" prerequisite skills is painful as fuck, and "You can wear chainmail" feels even worse. They also still have the mostly uselss governor class (Now called commander) which has a bunch of city/general empire improving skills, but basically the only way to level heroes up is through combat and questing so that sack of shit you want to leave behind to boost your city has to soak up XP that your actual fighting heroes could use to get good at it.
They also rejiggered the damage and weapons in the game. All weapon damage is a single type now, and each weapon type has a special move. Axes can hit a fan in front of a unit. Spears can pierce a unit behind the unit you're attacking. Swords get counter attacks. And blunt weapons can do double damage and then miss their next turn. As you can probably imagine this means you should never ever ever use blunt weapons.
TLDR summary: Mainly sidegrades at best with only a minimal amount of new content.

Quick rundown of the game I played now that I've gotten the general rant out of the way. Was playing on a medium/large (I forget which, whatever had 6 recommended players on it. I think large) map with 5 AI opponents on challenging (Full AI difficulty with no cheats) difficulty and all map settings to normal and default. Was easy as usual until I started bumping into other empires.
I was stronger than 3, but the one that ate the fifth was stronger than me. Didn't have good relations with any of them but I kept questing and expanding and doing my thing. Strongest AI finally declared war on me, and I ran past her front line with my primary army and razed 4 or 5 of her cities until she wanted peace. Taking cities in Legendary Heroes is still ridiculously easy, there's no siege at all you just attack as soon as you want and an undefended city even with upgrades just has some basic militia with minor defense bonuses. Each turn I was able to take a city, raze it (Which is also instant), then move to the next due to the massive movement bonuses roads give you and begin again, so all those cities were lost (Including her capital) one turn after another. I fought her with my secondary weaker army and it looks like the AI at least BUILDS armies now, so I guess that's an improvement.
After that I was the most powerful faction left. Decided not to go for a conquest victory since I couldn't be assed mopping up 4 civs so I decided to try for the "Quest" victory. All stages leading up to the last were reasonable considering I had an end-game fully upgraded army with a powerful level 14-ish hero. Then I got to the final stage.
The final stage has you fighting some guy riding a dragon. The guy can cast a spell that deals massive damage to your entire army, the dragon can breathe a cone of fire that essentially instakills anything it hits (Even if they're wearing fire resist gear), and he has so many HP my best run didn't even get him to 80% health. Earlier in the quest you get a hammer that does way more damage than any other weapon in the game, I can only assume you're supposed to use that but since it requires level 20 and the leveling is so goddamn slow even if the hero is by himself I couldn't bring myself to spend hours grinding XP to use the hammer.
Change of plan, I'd go for a tech victory. As it turns out, the tech victory in Legendary Heroes/Fallen Enchantress is hilariously easy. It's not even at the end of the magic tree so you can gain access to it early on, then you have to build 4 towers in your cities (Easy enough to do, and they don't have to be spread out so you can build them all in your major production city), then your hero has to spend 10 turns casting the spell and you've won. That's it. The other factions get massive diplomacy penalties once they see you starting down that path so I GUESS they're supposed to stop you if you rush it early game, but I don't know.

So there you have it. A lot of poorly written text typed up spur of the moment. The game's still less shitty than galciv2, and I'd say it's less shitty than Sins of a Solar Empire even though Stardock didn't make SoaSE, but it's still disappointing as hell. Even with Master of the Broken Worlds' bugs and flaws, and even with Warlock's low budget and heavy emphasis on combat, they're pretty easily better games. It also makes me appreciate Endless Space more, honestly.
And one final thing I thought of, the diplomacy's still awful. Your options and choices are miniscule and there's even less flavor to it than galciv2 diplomacy. It's not much of a step beyond Warlock's super simple diplomacy.

Edit: Although I will say that spur of the moment just kept spurring. Goddamn.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
When i saw that fallen enchantress is selling for 40 bucks i almost shit my pants. How many times are they gonna sell this failed game?

Somebody acquire (dont buy it obviously) brads book and write an impression please
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,135
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
The game's still less shitty than galciv2, and I'd say it's less shitty than Sins of a Solar Empire even though Stardock didn't make SoaSE, but it's still disappointing as hell. Even with Master of the Broken Worlds' bugs and flaws, and even with Warlock's low budget and heavy emphasis on combat, they're pretty easily better games. It also makes me appreciate Endless Space more, honestly.
That's what I wanted to know. So it's no deal.
Cheers.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Just grab Eador for $10ish when it goes on sale (and most of the bugs/issues are sorted out).
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
I finally had some time to play it. Played 3 games. Just some first impressions.

First game was "Normal" map size with "Challenging" monsters and AI (+1 difficulty monsters and no resource bonus, best AI opponents). 6 AI players and me (max recommended for normal map size). Got a huge lead after a couple of hours, didn't have the patience to mop up.

Restarted with "Small" map, "Challenging" monsters and 6 Hard AI players. Miscalculated and left the whole army standing next to a "deadly" monster group, while trying to race the AI to a good city spot.

Restarted with same settings. Picked a race with +1 movement and "scouting" as a perk (units not slowed by terrain). Much better. Game is not bad at all. You probably want to up the AI difficulty some more to have a proper challenge. It's a shame the diplomacy is very simplistic and there's no spying.

When the world is small (20 cities on the map max) and you have to make each turn count, the game is fun. It's also full of weird bugs, odd interface problems and overall quirky design. It's "streamlined" in places where it shouldn't be (tactical combat, city placement, diplomacy) and then it goes into crazy detail with designing your rank and file soldiers and equipping them with all kinds of crap. It's probably a consequence of trying to bolt on new mechanics to an old game.

The graphics are also hit or miss. Cloth map is very cool and graphics are fine overall, but the human(oid) units look just... horibad. Just laughably amateurish. At least make the human(oid)s look nice when zoomed in, if you're going to make character customization a major feature of your game!

There is little difference between heroes and a well equipped unit. I would have preferred not to have the option to fully design and equip the soldiers. Just have stock troops with some upgrades and make the heroes stand out more. Or scrap the heroes and make every unit unique (like in Dark Omen with the exception of mortars and cannons?). I think there actually is an option to produce your own heroes after researching some tech... Didn't really try it so I don't know how it fits in the game, but it seems like "everything but the kitchen sink" type of game design at work. Could be wrong.

At least they solved the problem of heroes ending up too powerful and just soloing everything. I think that a fully tricked out "regular" unit, with full ranks is actually more powerful than a well equipped high(ish) level hero in a straight up fight (let's say lvl 15 hero, that's as far as I got). Only when you start using the spells and skills do the heroes shine. This is highly situational, as you usually have only high initiative, high movement (mounted, flying) units by the end game and tactical maps are rather small. So your powerful sorcerer could be dead before you even get a chance to act. I think there is no "tactics" skill and all troop deployments are automatic. Oh, and flying units can't fly over obstacles and other units in tactical combat. Gay.

I didn't play the original or the first expansion, but I like this version better than Warlock and Eador. Both games get really grindy, really fast. Here you have the strategy layer to keep you from getting bored and combat is decently varied and quickly resolved. If this was the first release and we had 2 expansions to THIS game, I think it would actually be a really good MoM clone.

TL;DR If you're itching for a fantasy Civ game, you could do much worse than this.

Good effort Stardock, you've surpassed my very low expectations! Now tell us what Soren is working on, Frogboy! Does it begin with an "M" and end with "aster of Orion 4"? ;)
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,541
Did you play Legendary Heroes? I would gladly hear some borader impressions from the "final" version.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Man, I can applaud the efforts of Stardock with this game. It is like to watch a medic trying in vain to ressurect someone that is already dead, you can appreciate the perseverance but it is a pointless afair. The maximum they are going to achieve is a mediocre game instead of a terrible one. Any spark of interest that existed in me died, I was very hyped for the original (should know better, knowing Stardock history). They should do something radical with it because this incremental approach isn't enough to make me surpass my lazyness and even have a drop of curiosity.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
I think its hilarious that frogboy kept saying how reviews and sales proved the game was good, then proceeded to rerelease the game... Again
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
Did you play Legendary Heroes? I would gladly hear some borader impressions from the "final" version.
I've only played Legendary Heroes, release version. Didn't play any of earlier games/expansions/betas. Everything I wrote is first impressions from the latest game.


Finished the third game. Here's some more impressions.

You can win by conquest, allying yourself to all other players (this is boring and prone to abuse with limited diplomatic options IMO), by completing a quest chain and by casting a spell.

Casting the Ultimate spell is a variation of "space race victory". You have to research it in the magic tech tree (it's just one tech and not that hard to research), build 3 towers, build one more thingy after they have been completed and finally spend a decent amount of mana and stand still for 10 turns with your sovereign while he prepares the spell. Each step of this process (building towers...), pisses other players progressively more. I think the idea with this was that you have to last 10 turns without the sovereign while angry AIs descend upon you from all sides.

In my game there were only 2 AIs left (2 conquered by me and 1 by the other AI) and were much weaker and in good relations with me. They got a bit angrier, but did nothing.

You can also tie other players in non-aggression pacts or tribute treaties that don't let them attack for an absolutely insane (IMO) number of turns. I think it goes down as the game goes on, but it was still 30 turns when I started building the towers. It took me less than 30 turns to construct all the towers and finish casting the spell. This may be skewed by the power disparity and me having a couple of good production cities, but 30 turns of safety is way to long in any case and there is no way to adjust the duration or cancel the deals once made (that I know of). It was 10 turns of mandatory peace in Civ 4 IIRC for tributes and peace treaties.

Winning by completing "The Big Quest" consists of just a series of go there, kill that quests and ends with you fighting a dragon rider.

It's a fairly tough opponent and has some pretty OP powers. One is damaging everything for 60 damage (resist for half) and healing himself for the amount of damage done (enough to kill most heroes if they fail to resist and severely weaken other units). Second is a breath weapon that pretty much one shots anyone standing in front of the dragon. It has great spell resistance, 500 HP with good initiative, attack, defense and counterattack, so it's hard to just charge and kill it, if you don't have a lot of spears and fast units.

I was caught unaware that he needed only one turn of preparation to cast his OP shit and after hitting him with several Mana blasts for about 300 damage, he resisted my counterspell, killed all my heroes and healed up to 100%. I ended up losing the rest of my army after eating a firebreath in the face when I charged him with my surviving wolf riders. The only thing that saved me was my mana shield and 1000+ mana in the bank, enabling my main hero to survive. While he was butchering my army I managed to land a couple of Shadow bolts that lowered his resistance just enough to enable me to kill him with the appropriately named "Kill" spell. Yay for Death school of magic!

I could have just reloaded and charged him with all my units (I did have a lot of wolf riders with spears), but reloading is for pussies :)
My score at the end was about 11k+ for casting the spell and 12k+ for killing the dragon, making me easily better than Frogboy's 10k top score on the default ladder :smug: I'm guessing scoring isn't modified by difficulty level, game duration (in turns) and other factors like in Civ, because I was playing only on Hard difficulty and fucking around for the last 100 turns. I finished the game in about 9 hours, on turn 280ish. Looking at the end game graphs, the game was effectively over before turn 150.

If you're having a go at Legendary heroes and are a "veteran" player of Civ games, I'd recommend reading the manual (or playing the tutorial) and using following settings: Small map with 5 or 6 Hard (or better) AIs and Challenging (or better) monsters.

Some random thoughts:

I had a look at training your own "heroes". For the Empire side they are called Sions. They can be designed and upgraded like units, can't equip/swap (new) items and learn magic, but level up like heroes, including selecting a mage class and learning the spells from the skill tree. I really don't get what purpose they serve or why all units are not like them (or regular heroes). They are a "solo" unit (other units can be in groups of up to 6 with the right tech), without powerful items and spells regular heroes have and come fairly late in the magic tech tree. Even if you neglected other tech trees and focused on just on the magic one, I don't think they would be a great choice. I also don't think you could play a competitive game by just focusing your research on the magic tree. I could be wrong about this, though.

Ranged weapons (magic staffs, bows, crossbows) seem pretty shitty and useless. You would think a mage would be best served by having a magic staff and using a ranged attack when not casting spells. Well, you'd be wrong, because a staff gives -6 to initiative. Why is -6 to initiative such a big deal? I didn't find the exact formula, but as far as I can tell this is how it works: The default initiative is 20. Let's say you have character A with a staff (20-6=14 initiative) and character B with a dagger (20+4=24 initiative). You have a time unit of a 100 and "fill it" with your initiative. A would need (approximately) 100/14=7 "ticks" to act again (0,7,14,21,28,35,42,...), B only 100/24=4 ticks (0,4,8,12,16,20,24,28,32,36,40,...). So turn order would be something like this: B,A,B,A,B,B,A,B,B,A,B,A,B,B,A... That's a lot of B's.

Other weapons and heavier armor also modify initiative (spear is neutral, swords and daggers are +initiative, axes and mauls -initiative). Weapons do give powerful abilities for having lower initiative, but I don't think it's enough to compensate (I do like spears, though). There are no class restrictions or weapon proficiencies (other than ones for Chainmail and Plate armor), so all my mages ride around on wargs, wielding daggers and shields. I think this is a missed opportunity to really differentiate units. As it stands there's no drawback of using mounts (horses, wargs), other than needing to have mounts to use :)


There are cooldowns and preparation time for casting spells. It works pretty well, enabling you to attempt to counterspell and "deny" the devastating spell your opponent is charging up.

There are seas, but no islands or ships! Map is always one big land mass.

Cloth map view is really nifty. Graphics are also nice, if a little busy.

After about 15 hours of playtime, I'd rate the game "good for what it is". Easily a much better game than Civ 5 (didn't play the expansion) and more fun than Grindador (if not a better game). IMO, it's not worth 40$. At 20$, plus a couple of patches, I could see myself recommending it. It's really a shame the game is a disjointed lump of good ideas. It's like a first draft of a good novel. There is potential there, but some editing is needed. Maybe there'll be another expansion or a mod...
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Who says Legendary Heroes is the final version? A year from now he'll probably be selling Elemental Fallen Enchantress Legendary Heroic Orcs Knights of ITZ Part 12.
 

dragonfk

Erudite
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
2,487
Okey.

Never thought I say it, but the game is fun.

The best game Stardock ever put out in the market. I know that's not saying much, but there you go. I like it equally to Eador, maybe slightly more.

I've fired it yesterday and in 24 hours since then I've played it for 14 hours.

It's entirely possible that I will grow bored with it with time, but there's plenty to do and plenty do see.

I don't claim it's flawless game, but it's the next best thing since MoO.
 

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