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Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Oh shit, these guys aren't Minamori, they are Minamoto. One of Japans Imperial Families in the Heian Period, which is during this dynasty. Kind of a big deal.
“I am Yorimitsu of the Minamoto clan. It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance, Xu Jing.” You think you have heard of that clan before – they were supposed to be some big shots in Japan, equivalent to nobility. If only the scholar were here right now; he’d probably remember more than you do.
 

Jester

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
1,493
Hey guys? Don't worry. When all this blows up, you can blame me, remember? :salute:
Chill I got a cunning plan.
  1. Negotiate ceasefire with orthodox. (preferably as semiofficial Daimyo of island, that should force people to reconsider any hostile moves.)
  2. Get Hall to be proxy in trade solving local problem without risking showing our connection to royal palace. (young madame looked like reasonable person, so lets speak money.)
  3. Gather talented people.
  4. Send them to training on island to make our own ninja army.
  5. Make spy network incorporating all china.
  6. Find a loyal spy master and assassin master. (this is tricky part.)
  7. Remove problems from premises.
Baldrick would be proud.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,237
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hey guys? Don't worry. When all this blows up, you can blame me, remember? :salute:
Chill I got a cunning plan.
  1. Negotiate ceasefire with orthodox. (preferably as semiofficial Daimyo of island, that should force people to reconsider any hostile moves.)
  2. Get Hall to be proxy in trade solving local problem without risking showing our connection to royal palace. (young madame looked like reasonable person, so lets speak money.)
  3. Gather talented people.
  4. Send them to training on island to make our own ninja army.
  5. Make spy network incorporating all china.
  6. Become spy/assassin master.
  7. Remove problems from premises.
Baldrick would be proud.
Improved.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
A2. These guys are not dead weight like Kipeci claims. They have means to make a living if only they can trade. They are high borns so expect high art skills and stuff.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
How about settling for trade negotiations through the pugilists, all they need is food and medicine and the Zhou family are a pretty reputable sort. People will listen to them, or at least use them as a proxy and they won't really give a damn about Japan because they're not involved with them, at all.

You do realize that many of the pugilists are part of, at least in theory, some sort of monk group sworn to poverty, right? Why should they have massive stockpiles of food, and why would they need whatever treasure it is that these pirates have? The Zhou family part is just ridiculous. It's clear that they've suffered some damages at the hands of these bandits (or why else would he even bother organizing this?) and having them trade with the Zhou family will damage their reputation and end the potential of any deals with Japan, not to mention existing ones. Why should we ask them to take it?

That depends on how long their money would last them. I expect it to last enough for them not to resort to underhanded tactics again until we can arrange for a permanent solution. We'll probably be contacting Shun before the Zoro challenge takes place. Half a year is not that big of a deal.
They can also decide to buy supplies ang go deeper into the mainland in search of a place to settle, as they first intended. The lack of suppies is the only thing stopping them.

The money that they can't really use because they can't trade. They've already said that they prefer piracy towards uprooting themselves yet again to go inland, so they're not doing that even if they hire security and manage to buy supplies from... 'someone'. Not sure who you're depending on us to force them into trade with, we don't exactly have enough leverage to demand that a city makes deals with them.
A2. These guys are not dead weight like Kipeci claims. They have means to make a living if only they can trade. They are high borns so expect high art skills and stuff.

Yes, and trade with whom, exactly? As for art, well, I know that great artists are renowned for being able to support themselves with ease from the proceeds of their work ('starving artists'? What?), but how well would that stretch for over 200 people?
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The facts are starting to drown in a sea of assumptions and speculations.

The Zhou family part is just ridiculous. It's clear that they've suffered some damages at the hands of these bandits (or why else would he even bother organizing this?) and having them trade with the Zhou family will damage their reputation and end the potential of any deals with Japan, not to mention existing ones. Why should we ask them to take it?
While it is true that Zhou family won't be of much help with the negotiations, the reasons are completely different from the ones you describe. First, since when did you become certain of the fact that Zhou family have a personal vendetta with these guys, or that they have been slighted in any way? Did it never occur to you that they have just risen to lead the people because somebody had to do something about the situation after the government refused to take responsibility, and they were the most influental orthodox pugilists around? I mean, even Jing, who is not a saint by any means, have done his share of purely selfless deeds in this LP. Why can't you fathom that these guys want to protect the people just because they swing that way?

They are not merchants, so I can't see trading with Japan as a concern for them. They aren't doing it either way.

They still have responsibility to the other pugilists they have assembled under their banner (they can not speak for themselves alone anymore), and they would not want to drag their name in this any further after the involvement of their daughter comes to light. The pirates did break the law, after all, they can't argue to forgive them and be done with it. The reputation is a valid concern.

The money that they can't really use because they can't trade. They've already said that they prefer piracy towards uprooting themselves yet again to go inland, so they're not doing that even if they hire security and manage to buy supplies from... 'someone'. Not sure who you're depending on us to force them into trade with, we don't exactly have enough leverage to demand that a city makes deals with them.
That is why we aren't going anywhere until we are sure they can trade. Otherwise all our work here end up being for naught.

And where did you get that they prefer piracy to settling on the mainland? They never got a proper choice in this matter, did they? They explicitly told you that they don't have supplies to delve into the mainland in a thorough search of unoccupied fertile lands. Yes, they do not want to leave, but what does it have to do with anything? If it comes to the choice between facing extinction at the hands of the pugilist who just had enough of them harassing the coast, and buying the supplies necessary for a long trip and then moving away peacefully, they would choose the latter, simply because they are not fools. They know they can't keep this up forever.

It is just the choice they had so far was to die of starvation with certainity, or take their chances by eventually facing up the pugilists after taking the supplies by force. It had nothing to do with their preferences. It is just you assuming the worst about everyone we meet.

It may seem that I am overtly forgiving and sympathetic to their cause, and I well may be, but I did not forget for a second that these guys have done some nasty things and ended up causing several deaths. Even if it wasn't their intention, and even if the fault can be attributed to the government and to the merchants as well, the blame still lies on the pirates. It is just that I don't think that taking hundreds of lives makes for a good solution to the matter that have only clained tens so far, and we don't have many other options available. It is a classic example of a medicine being worse than a desease. Even if A2 isn't justice by a long shot, it is still far better than its alternatives. I honestly believe we can stop the situation from escalating any further.
 
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obiter dictum

Novice
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
8
I don't understand what the allure of A2 is. So many possibilities for a complete trainwreck. These people are pirates, no matter if they have been forced to it by their circumstances. Going up against Zatoichi-bro is no fun, but anything is better than lolplomacy with people who don't trust us in the first place, and certainly won't now. B could be suicidal and I don't think we need to go all-in in this situation, though.

C, on the other hand, accomplishes our immediate goal of extracting the daughter's friend, while preserving our future freedom of choice. There's a slight risk someone else will get the pirate leader's head first with this option, but it seems unlikely given the apparent strength of the pirate defence.

So, voting C. Flop before this goes straight to hell bros.
 
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Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
I don't understand what the allure of A2 is. So many possibilities for a complete trainwreck.
Bottom line is, the other options are trainwrecks, without the "many possibilities" part: B is deliciously Khorne, but I want Jing to live a while longer; while C basically allows a massacre to happen, and not just of the pirates but the pugilists as well. Since their plan is so elementary as "set fire and full frontal assault at night," while the Minamoto exiles stayed up many nights planning and preparing a defense, and have a ninja master in their ranks. It has already been stated that we will not arrive back to the mainland quickly enough to warn the assault team and prevent them from making this mistake so they will basically be walking right into it. My moralfag position was laid out many times over already, making orphans and killing off good people because "laws says it's wrong, sucks to be you."

That, and we have the chance here to save many lives, on both sides, and I would hate to walk away from that just because "it's none of my business." We're in a position to make this go for the better and I want to take it.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
I don't understand what the allure of A2 is. So many possibilities for a complete trainwreck. These people are pirates, no matter if they have been forced to it by their circumstances. Going up against Zatoichi-bro is no fun, but anything is better than lolplomacy with people who don't trust us in the first place, and certainly won't now. B could be suicidal and I don't think we need to go all-in in this situation, though.

C, on the other hand, accomplishes our immediate goal of extracting the daughter's friend, while preserving our future freedom of choice. There's a slight risk someone else will get the pirate leader's head first with this option, but it seems unlikely given the apparent strength of the pirate defence.

Yes, the Minamoto Clan are no saints either, but this whole excursion is just a tremendous and preventable waste of lives. Yorimitsu would much prefer not to fight, they didn't have any alternatives, and they are honorable people in a desperate situation. Knowing what we know, allowing this pointless, avoidable battle to occur because they are "pirates" is absolutely crazy.

I'd also like to point out that the diplomacy we'll attempt in A2 has nothing to do with them trusting or respecting us. In fact, it's quite the opposite; we're banking on our reputation being so terrible that we'll be able to cause Zhou Dingqui's assault plan to fizzle out before it begins. What, do you think that the assault team will be eager to call our bluff? I don't think that Zhang has ever bluffed in his life, if they see us with a hostage, they will be expecting us to be dead-serious.

Once the battle begins, that's it - you can't stop things things until the situation has run its course and you can't reverse it. These are the options that C will provide us with:

1) Support the Zhou Clan's forces
2) Join up with the Miyamoto

In the case of 1) we'll end up providing support to a costly assault against a group of people that wanted a peaceful resolution. 2) is also bad because even if the Zhou Clan's pugilist alliance is eliminated, the Miyamoto Clan are still feared and hated as outlaws. It doesn't solve their predicament at all.

I'm not saying that A2 doesn't present problems. There might be elements within the alliance that might be unpredictable and want to either commence the assault anyways, or make an attempt to attack us (like Songfeng) but, as difficult as it is, I just can't justify the sort of willful ignorance that C entails. Doing the right thing is hard, and I hope we pull through.

A2
 
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Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
A2>A1>C

The martial artists are just going to die attacking a fortified position with traps. Even if man-to-man they happen to be better than the Minamoto clan, I reckon the Minamoto clan is the better in group combat. Besides these martial artists aren't too good and they'd be whittled down before they even reach the enemy.

Diplomacy is doable because Zhou's daughter will lend her reputation to the effort, Jing still has a high speech skill, and Xiahou Yu has a high scholarly knowledge. With our positive Yuhua Hall rep, they might mediate as a neutral party. (Also, Yuhua Hall is less concerned about honor, more discrete, and has useful contacts.) The pirates are all for a better solution than being pirates, so this looks doable.
 
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Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
If it hasn't come up, by the way, the very fact that we went there on our own without any authorisation, with Zhou's daughter (or if we lie, without, but still, coincidentally around the same time she was taken hostage), and apparently discovered super ninja dude and a super well defended place, which coincidentally we now want to help negotiate a compromise....

We're gonna be going really uphill on this one.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Indeed, this will be fun as hell to pull off. After all,
Loyalty, yes, but this should be governed mostly by his feelings, not pragmatism; i.e. even if you have this great plan that will save the world, don't expect him to cooperate if he really hates you for what you've done to him personally unless your plan is really good and there is no other alternative. Or if he likes you, but your prospects are really shitty and he knows it is, he'll still attempt to move heaven and earth to make it less shitty so that it'll work out in the end, rather than abandoning you for greener pastures.
Jing is wise in the way of the bro, and the teachings of BLOBERT.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It's not like the girl we try to save, bitter about us killing her friends in C, would let the secret of our visit to the island slip, right? The very same visit after which the pugilists find the place significantly better defended than they had expected, and end up losing a good deal of their people.

At least if A2 succeeds, there would be no lives lost to pin on us.
 
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Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
A2 doesn't mean we make a hostage out of her. It just means we also have that option.
 

treave

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
11,370
Codex 2012
Sorry, just haven't had the time to sit down and type, too many different obligations popping up at the same time. I believe A2 still has it? The update should be out within 24 hours.
 

treave

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
11,370
Codex 2012
Cove Confrontation

“What is the meaning of this?” asks Zhou Dingqiu, standing at the head of a hundred fighters. They had been forced to change their plans upon spotting you awaiting them at the cove where the pirate ships had been moored. Instead of coming onshore quietly to scuttle the ships, Zhou had decided that his element of surprise was likely lost. Of course, it was lost from the start. “When you didn’t showed up, I thought something like this would happen. Have you taken the pirate leader’s head before us?” asks Master Gong. You shake your head. “Nothing so easy as that. I’m here to warn you,” you say. “It turns out that the pirates have already known of your coming from the start.”

“How could they have-“

“If you’re going to advertise your recruitment publicly in the city, anyone would know about it,” you interrupt. “I’m afraid that pressing on right now is only going to result in pointless deaths. They are prepared for you.”

“It doesn’t matter, does it? Unless you’re a coward,” taunts some nameless Songfeng disciple.

“It matters because this fight appears to be rather pointless,” you say.

“How so? You seem to know something we don’t,” remarks Zhou Zhideng, the scion of the Zhou clan. He seems worried that things are not going to plan. You nod and begin to explain what you have found out, carefully leaving out his daughter’s plan so as not to incite any more unwarranted excitement, as well as Yorimitsu’s offer of a reward. After you have finished, Zhou sighs deeply and says, “A strange story indeed. I am not sure what to think, having sailed all the way out here.”

“It’s all a lie! He’s failed to take their leader’s head and now he seeks to scare us off doing the same so that he will not lose face!” shouts one of the pugilists. “Don’t fall for Man Tiger Pig’s lies! He’s only backpedalling now because he put his own reputation at stake!” A chorus of agreement echoes amongst the crowd, such is your reputation for trickery that they are eager to believe you are not telling the truth.

“If you do not trust me, I can show you the village, and their people. I can arrange for an audience with their leader, too,” you offer.

“He’s just going to lead us into a trap!”

“Yeah, don’t trust him! I say we go ahead and show him the power of the orthodox sects, doing what he has failed to do!” As one the crowd surges forward, but when you fail to budge even an inch in the face of their advance, their steps falter. You grin.

“I will say this – if you go forth, you will die, and I will not even have to move a finger.” It is not a lie. The Minamoto had already set archers in position, having spotted the pugilists’ approach from far away. They would have been met by a hail of arrows had they proceeded with their original plan of setting fire to the ships. Thankfully the archers seem to be disciplined enough to refrain from a volley until you have exhausted your options – but if you fail to turn them away here, you have no doubt they will fire.

“Please, listen to him, father! Brother!” The young lady of Zhou Manor, Zhou Zixia, runs out besides you. The scholar runs after her, helplessly asking her to wait. This wasn’t the time for her to make her appearance. Zhou Dingqiu’s face darkens when he sees his daughter. His son steps forward, surprised. “Sister! What are you doing here? I thought-“

Zixia tries to support your story, but she is drowned out by a shout from her father. “Enough! This is shameful behaviour indeed! Zixia, come over here. This is no way for a respectable lady to behave – you promised me that you would stay obediently! And you, Xu Jing, I thought better of you. I suspected that she might try asking you for help with her foolish errand, but I did not think her actually silly enough to try, and you disreputable enough to accept!”

“Father, perhaps it was nothing more than coincidence. We should reconsider-” begins Zhideng, but Zhou Dingqiu shakes his head angrily. “This has shamed our entire clan. I must apologise to all the brave fighters here for showing such an embarrassing side of our family. Dirty linen should not have been aired in public.”

“That is alright, Master Zhou,” says Master Ji awkwardly, “but what do we do now?”

“The pirates have broken the law, and caused suffering,” he replies. “That is the truth. For these foreigners to come to our land and pillage our property is inexcusable, no matter what reasons they may have. This is not their country.”

“Down with the foreign devils!” shouts a Songfeng disciple that you mark and decide will go down first when the fighting starts.

“Will matters be solved with just my life alone?” To your surprise, Yorimitsu appears, stepping out of the darkness in full battle regalia. His uncle does not seem to be anywhere nearby, but you have no doubt that the man is watching and ready to strike. Unexpected things are happening faster than you can respond; this is not what you had in mind. “I am Yorimitsu of the Minamoto, leader of my people on this island. The responsibility is mine to bear. If I fall here, will you judge justice served?”

“Why would that be, young man?” snorts Master Gong. “We have no guarantee your people will not continue to pirate. Who would trust the word of a pirate?”

“Not even if I lay down my life to bind an oath?”

“Your oaths have no value to us, Wo,” says Zhou Dingqiu. “This problem must be solved, and solved decisively. When the grass is cut the roots must be plucked. The Imperial Court has expressed their desire to clean up the coast and free the people from the plague of piracy. Though they are not able or willing to do it directly, as loyal subjects the orthodox sects are more than willing to do it on the Emperor’s behalf. I am afraid this can only end in one way.”

“Is that so?” murmurs Yorimitsu, his hand laid on his sword. The crowd tenses. You rather suspect arrows will begin flying at any moment.

“If you fight now, your daughter will be caught up in the fighting,” you point out.

“You-“ grimaces Zhou Dinqiu, his expression full of anger. “Are you threatening me?”

“Of course not! I would not dare, Master Zhou,” you say. “I am merely pointing out something to watch out for.”

“A daughter that would rebel against her father to such an extent is no daughter of mine,” he scowls, though you can tell he does not mean his words. Still, he seems resolved to go on the attack. “For that matter, Xu Jing, why are you siding with these Wo? Are you betraying your own country?”

“I am not siding with them,” you reply, “merely trying to prevent needless loss of life. Would you serve your country better by continuing to live, or by bleeding out here by the sea? What can you accomplish if you drive these people to extinction? Will there be no more raids? Of course not. There will always be pirates.”

“That is right,” Xiahou Yu speaks out, having found his courage from somewhere – you stare at him as you catch a whiff of just where he had found his courage. Hopefully he had not partook of too much courage. “Even if you stamp out these pirates, more will come. Can you hire boats every month, every year, trying to keep them under control? Piracy is a symptom of the greater disease that ails our empire, not a cause. It is not the pirates we must strive against! It is those who have strayed from the Will of Heaven!” Ah, yes. He definitely took too much. You resist the urge to bury your head in the sand. Even though you agree with him, this is not the time and place to speak out against the government.

“Treason! He speaks treason!” screams the pugilists.

“They have betrayed us to the foreign devils! Gut them all!”

It looks like this will all spiral into a fight rather soon. Yorimitsu is on edge, as are the pugilists. “I thank you for your efforts,” mutters the young Minamoto leader, “but it seems that it was a lost cause in the first place. You have my apologies for getting you involved in this – my own judgment was lacking. You should leave now. I would not ask you to turn your sword on your own people. I will arrange for your payment, so do not worry about that.”

***

A. You accept Yorimitsu’s offer and leave, returning Zixia to her father. You will have no part in what is to come. Best to retreat and let them sort it out themselves; you have no obligations to them. It seems that the idea for this campaign actually originated from within the Court; you are under no impressions that they are a monolithic bloc, but as you have no idea of just which factions are behind this and what games they are playing, you do not want to get involved any further.

B. You take Miss Zhou hostage to force all attention back to you. From there you can dictate your terms. It is unlikely that you can force unilateral retreat, but a challenge would be acceptable. You are still a member of the jianghu yourself, and they will find it hard to turn down. The best way would be to challenge all of them – one at a time, all at once, they can come at you however they wish. If the pirates kill even a single pugilist, things will never be salvaged. Of course, if you mess up you are probably dead.

C. You decide to fight alongside the Minamoto pirates to repel the pugilists. It is probably safer and less risky this way for yourself, and it would result in less loss of life in comparison to letting them sort it out themselves. By ending the fight decisively at the cove and turning them away before they get deeper into the island, you can minimize the bloodshed.

D. You decide to fight alongside the pugilists, turning on Yorimitsu and taking his head. You are close enough to do so quickly, before any intervention can happen. This is for the best – with a brutal show of force, if you are on the side of the pugilists, you could at least prevent an outright massacre from happening when they descend upon his womenfolk and children.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
I knew we should have put the Songfeng in their place with a good asskicking. Wonder where Yu got the booze from.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
It's time to establish our own fearsome rep and get a ticket into the Black Dragon Society. These pugilists are either useful idiots of imperial politics or busybodies. Either way, Ii don't feel compelled to side with them and Miss Zhou is surely distraught at her father's words. I say we give her a hug.
Let them come at us, B.
 
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