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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I know LGBT is heavily disputed in most gaming communities, but still: why can't characters be defined by it? Especially if the developer and narrative designers think that sexuality is an issue that needs to be reflected upon? I don't think it's the dev's obligation to create the most realistic characters possible, but to
Any character that is defined by a single issue is a shallow, poorly written character.

create characters who transport their message.
I think it's poor writing that only serves to transport a message. Good writing has a lot more nuance to it.
 

Rake

Arcane
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Bioware does not use LGBT to define characters. Obsidian does. In (modern) bioware games every character is Bisexual. By default.

I know LGBT is heavily disputed in most gaming communities, but still: why can't characters be defined by it? Especially if the developer and narrative designers think that sexuality is an issue that needs to be reflected upon? I don't think it's the dev's obligation to create the most realistic characters possible, but to create characters who transport their message.
The dev's job isn't to hammer a "message" to us. And if a character is defined only by his sexuality and his sexual issues, i would be inclined to rape/maim/fry (not nesesarily in that order) regardles of what sexuality that was. To pose the question is fine. To make it such a major issue and force it to me is not.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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SophosTheWise is such a stereotype on the young academic who just discovered social constructivism that I'm not sure if he's a parody or the real deal.

The Gay Character = bad, The Character That Is Also Gay = good. Sure, it can define them, but if it is all that defines them, the writer has understood little of both writing and homosexuality.

Rake said:
To make it such a major issue and force it to me is not.

Eh? A writer is entitled to write about any issue he or she wants. It seems stupid that because BioWare has handled the matter with all the grace of a sledge-hammer, some topics and themes are suddenly not allowed by definition.

There's a difference between something being all a character is, and it being a defining trait. The first is bad unless handled with some exceptional skill in simplistic writing (or parody, I guess), the latter is OK, regardless of the trait.
 

Deacdo

Liturgist
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Oct 24, 2004
Messages
585
Is there a really good update on combat? Combat always annoyed me in the IE games. While I'd definitely prefer a turn-based system, I think that there is at least some potential for a RTwP system as long as they find a way to deal with/implement flanking and other tactics. Not to mention findings ways to prevent the all-irritating "enemy waltz by your front-line fighters, making a b-line for your weaker rear-line characters" ploy.
 

SophosTheWise

Cipher
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522
Gentlemen, let us not devolve the issue into a discussion of the Normative ideas in Aesthetics. I frankly do not feel the codex is the place to debate it.

Agreed. But it's apparently consensus that there are normative ideas that are inherently correct.

SophosTheWise is such a stereotype on the young academic who just discovered social constructivism that I'm not sure if he's a parody or the real deal.
What are you even talking about social constructivism? I don't give a damn about sociological theories, and especially not social constructivism, when there is constructivist philosophy.

The Gay Character = bad, The Character That Is Also Gay = good. Sure, it can define them, but if it is all that defines them, the writer has understood little of both writing and homosexuality.
Eh? A writer is entitled to write about any issue he or she wants.
That seems to be a contradiction. But anyhow, what I meant was, that I think it's kind of irrelevant if writing adheres to normative ideas of quality if it serves a purpose that is not only entertainment. It doesn't matter how bad or how sledgehammer things are, as long as it gets people talking. And , apparently, it gets people talking.

Rake
The dev's job isn't to hammer a "message"
I think a dev's job is whatever the dev regards to be his job. As long as he sells his games.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Is there a really good update on combat? Combat always annoyed me in the IE games. While I'd definitely prefer a turn-based system, I think that there is at least some potential for a RTwP system as long as they find a way to deal with/implement flanking and other tactics. Not to mention findings ways to prevent the all-irritating "enemy waltz by your front-line fighters, making a b-line for your weaker rear-line characters" ploy.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/415136
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
That seems to be a contradiction. But anyhow, what I meant was, that I think it's kind of irrelevant if writing adheres to normative ideas of quality if it serves a purpose that is not only entertainment. It doesn't matter how bad or how sledgehammer things are, as long as it gets people talking. And , apparently, it gets people talking.
All we're talking about is what makes bad writing.

Although, now that you mention it, that might have been a major theme of Mass Effect 3.
 

Athelas

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That seems to be a contradiction. But anyhow, what I meant was, that I think it's kind of irrelevant if writing adheres to normative ideas of quality if it serves a purpose that is not only entertainment. It doesn't matter how bad or how sledgehammer things are, as long as it gets people talking. And , apparently, it gets people talking.
There *are* some objective criteria against which a work of fiction can be judged (like the presence of plot holes). If a character is more of a positive-message-dispenser rather than, you know, a character, this is generally considered to be a failure.
 

Rake

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Did you brofist me before or after my edit, Rake? :P
Before, but that hasn't change anything.I still agree with you. By "force it" i actualy meant to force me to take a spesific stance/side to the matter. It's propably because of Bioware, but every time i hear about "sexuality" in the same sentence with "game" i want to hit someone. I'm all for games to follow themes and have a message, but in my opinion they should pose questions, not providing answers. Let me make my own.
If PS:T forced a romance on me and had a cheesy "love can change the nature of a man" as the correct answer, i would had murder someone threw it in the trash.
 
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Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
A good example of a well-written (YMMV) gay character is Omar Little from The Wire. You find out he's gay in like the 3rd scene he's in and the fact that he is gay is used in the narrative several times. It probably wouldn't come off anywhere near as good if he wasn't so exceptionally acted ... but anyway.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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That seems to be a contradiction. But anyhow, what I meant was, that I think it's kind of irrelevant if writing adheres to normative ideas of quality if it serves a purpose that is not only entertainment. It doesn't matter how bad or how sledgehammer things are, as long as it gets people talking. And , apparently, it gets people talking.
All we're talking about is what makes bad writing.

Weren't you involved in that one debate where Sophos declared that everything is relative? It is pointless to argue "bad" anything in that light. There is no good or bad, any idea is inherently normative.

EDIT: You know...

It is pointless to argue [...] anything in that light.

ta-da
 

Deacdo

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 24, 2004
Messages
585
Is there a really good update on combat? Combat always annoyed me in the IE games. While I'd definitely prefer a turn-based system, I think that there is at least some potential for a RTwP system as long as they find a way to deal with/implement flanking and other tactics. Not to mention findings ways to prevent the all-irritating "enemy waltz by your front-line fighters, making a b-line for your weaker rear-line characters" ploy.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/415136
Excellent. That's pretty much what I'm envisioning, though hopefully with a bit more depth in terms of tactical options once they flesh out the combat system.
 

~RAGING BONER~

Learned
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Messages
420
A good example of a well-written (YMMV) gay character is Omar Little from The Wire. You find out he's gay in like the 3rd scene he's in and the fact that he is gay is used in the narrative several times. It probably wouldn't come off anywhere near as good if he wasn't so exceptionally acted ... but anyway.
honestly the fact that he's gay makes him all the more terrifying considering the setting he's in...

black people are notoriously homophobic and since Omar is already considered a fearless lunatic, you add in the fear of anal rape and those darkies start quaking in their boots.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
That seems to be a contradiction. But anyhow, what I meant was, that I think it's kind of irrelevant if writing adheres to normative ideas of quality if it serves a purpose that is not only entertainment. It doesn't matter how bad or how sledgehammer things are, as long as it gets people talking. And , apparently, it gets people talking.
All we're talking about is what makes bad writing.

Weren't you involved in that one debate where Sophos declared that everything is relative? It is pointless to argue "bad" anything in that light. There is no good or bad, any idea is inherently normative.

EDIT: You know...

It is pointless to argue [...] anything in that light.

ta-da
I was just pointing out all of this "discussion" is boring. So if the point of something is to get people talking, and it gets them to talk about something boring, what has really been accomplished?
 

The Bishop

Cipher
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
359
There's no point in just making people talk about something. If you're not able to convince them to look at things differently they'll just rehash what they already think on the matter and move on. Art has great power of conviction, but it only applies if that art is able to move the audience. If all you care about is how to hammer in "the message", then you no longer convincing anybody, you just spreading propaganda.
 

Delterius

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Entre a serra e o mar.
The Gay Character = bad, The Character That Is Also Gay = good. Sure, it can define them, but if it is all that defines them, the writer has understood little of both writing and homosexuality.
Eh? A writer is entitled to write about any issue he or she wants.
That seems to be a contradiction. But anyhow, what I meant was, that I think it's kind of irrelevant if writing adheres to normative ideas of quality if it serves a purpose that is not only entertainment. It doesn't matter how bad or how sledgehammer things are, as long as it gets people talking. And , apparently, it gets people talking.

You're talking about a very specific idea, which is tackling homessexuality. Which, to the best of my knowledge, neither BioWare or anyone really has ever done.

Of course, when writers wish to raise awareness about an issue then he might write directly about that issue. And when your story's themes are about the trials and tribulations of being gay then it is only natural that this aspect in particular stands out for, say, the protagonist or his friends. As it turns out, however, that's never really the case. RPG developers only merely write heroic fantasies where some characters turn out to be gay. They might just create stories about some kind of opression but they aren't very likely to tackle the very specific theme of discrimination against homossexuals.

Just look at Dragon Age, people hate all kinds of stuff. They hate dwarves; elves; tauren; goldfish; mages but I don't really think the theme of sexual discrimination is ever tackled. The game flat out tells you there's no distinction between the sexes. There's no gender normativity to deconstruct or what have you. I think that's the difference between tackling homossexuality and displaying gay sex. The first is for people who can stomach it, the second is for the fangirls.

Nonetheless, one wonders why people still discuss this. Not to make one-key note characters is a bit basic; not to mention that even in BioWare games you'll have to make an effort to look for 'The Gay Character who has no other purpose than being Gay'. In this post-Dragon Age 2 world, sexuality isn't even a character trait anymore. Its the very last thing that matters. Though I suppose that's is still an issue, it is an entirely different issue.

EDIT: Mind you, there's one last concern that I'd like to bring up. I don't know you but I've never seen anyone moved by something they already expected. I've never seen someone moved by art that neither shocked nor surprised anyone.

Meaning that even if developers tackled homossexuality directly, it is still far from desirable that their work fall into a monotone. A monotheme so to speak. The issue must be tackled 'subtly', meaning that they can't be all there is to the story. And being gay can't be all there is to the characters. Their experiences and their lives can't be resumed by their sexuality.
 
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Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Good lord, yet another gay chat wherein heteros talk about how uncomfortable homos make them unless they keep that aspect to themselves. Is it next Tuesday yet?

For instance Josh is the Project Director, Lead Designer and Lead Systems Designer whereas on a big project he might have only one of those roles.
He was all three of those things on New Vegas.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
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Out of curiosity, when did Sawyer molest you? Because I can't fathom any other reason for your endless outpouring of butthurt in this thread.


Also dat crystal cave :bounce:
A few months before he contracted hiv and lost all that weight. I guess he has full blown AIDS by now.


On the gay thingy, Gann from MotB should definitely have been a bisexual. It just fits with his character' s worldview. Also, the influence gain with him when meeting with the founder.
 

Visbhume

Prophet
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Jun 21, 2004
Messages
984
Thread should be retardoed, but I'm concerned that moving such a mass of posts would cause a rift in the spacetime continuum. Please do it before reaching 1000 and it becomes too late.
 

coffeetable

Savant
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Dec 18, 2012
Messages
446
Thread should be retardoed, but I'm concerned that moving such a mass of posts would cause a rift in the spacetime continuum. Please do it before reaching 1000 and it becomes too late.

but yeah this thing is going on twice the size of the next largest thread in the forum. new thread when the gameplay demo turns up?

shotgun not doing the OP
 

Sensuki

Arcane
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New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Who cares about the thread size. Just let it keep going. As long as people keep posting in it it's not dead.

I have nearly 700 posts in this thread and that's over half my post count ;)
 

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