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Fully full review of neverwinter nights 2

suibhne

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Bottom line: the AI was far too dumb to work on autopilot, and the interface is far too dumb to work in Puppet Mode. -6 of one, -(one half dozen) of the other.

kris, I agree but would take it a step further: the entire game reeks of multiple designers without a solid unifying vision. And let's not forget that the Lead Designer position was replaced 2/3rds of the way through development. My totally uneducated guess is that Ferret was presiding over a much less flexible and possibly more streamlined game, and Josh came in and pushed for more multiple solutions - but who knows, maybe it was the exact opposite. Either way, the game was guided by two totally different Leads and is an obvious case of too many goddamn cooks.
 

doctor_kaz

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I don't really get where all the hate for the interface comes from. It's a step backwards from NWN no doubt, but Chrissakes it's still a hundred times better than any shitty console port interface like the one found in Kotor or Fable, or the maggot-infested dogshit of Gothic 1. I hear more complaints about NWN2's interface than lots of games whose interfaces have been much worse. Why is that?

I have had no problem with the quickcast bar and I find inventory and spells management for all of my party members to be very very easy. The interface could definitely use some improvements, no doubt. It should have had marching order functionality and a "select all" key, and I miss the functionality that lets you switch between hotkey bars by pressing the Shift or Ctrl key. These are still minor issues though. I find that all of them are. For about 75% of the fights, I let the AI run my teammates, since they are easy enough to not require micro management. For the other 25%, I queue up actions. I haven't had a lot of problems doing this. As far as ease of use goes, I find the game to be about on par with the Bioware Infinity engine. Maybe slightly lower.
 

aboyd

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Re: FWIW my (almost) full review of neverwinter nights 2

Jim,

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. But some things I feel differently about. My comments follow.

Jim Kata said:
Interface. This is worse than any game I have played.
I agree with what you said about the interface. I would add that if you have puppet mode off, it is incredibly annoying that selecting a character issues the "follow me" command, ending whatever actions everyone else was doing. Having said that, take a look at my screenshot from the game:

http://www.outshine.com/images/nwn2.jpg

That's exactly as I run it -- size, camera, etc. Note a few things: the map looks better; the portraits take up less screen space; the quickbar has twice as many slots available, but the icons are smaller; there is a "command" bar which has the party commands visible.

All of that comes from just two mods -- the XUI mod, and the little big map mod. You can get both on NW Vault. With those two free enhancements, my hours of gameplay have been far more enjoyable.

Jim Kata said:
The characters really don't give any feedback as to who they are attacking, if anyone. Most of the time, if you leave them to their own devices this will be no one.
I agree, but I've been using another mod to remedy this somewhat -- Even's AI mod. Not only does it make the characters more intelligent, it makes the enemies more intelligent too. Also, it helps to make the AI switches more defined and stable. Spellcasting settings are now clearly defined, and a bit more sane. In other words, they don't dump all their spells into a single opponent anymore (well, they do, but it's mitigated enough that I'm mostly happy).

Jim Kata said:
Let ME select my party. What the fuck!!! Every other mission I have to take different people along.
You may notice that in the screenshot I linked to, my party has 6 members. It is very simple to get into the console (just press ~) and change the party limit, or pull up the NPC selection menu. So I've increased the party size to mitigate the forced NPC limitations. The game operates wonderfully with increased party size, although some battles get easier. So for me, your complaint is the kind that I shared initially, then fixed, and spent the rest of the game happy.

Jim Kata said:
At one point you get a follower. Well, cool, I thought! Awesome! I was looking forward to leveling her up just as I saw fit. Sorry! She starts off as a fighter the exact same level as you, even as you 'train' her.
I don't have a solution to this -- I just want to comment on how frustrating it is. I suspect that it could have been fixed with 5 minutes of effort. Possible solutions? They could have simply had a 2 second cutscene when you acquired her, with just some text: "1 month later...." If they had done that, I could have understood her being trained up by the time I get my hands on her. Or, they could have dropped her into the party at level 1 but with tons of experience, so you get to level her up yourself. Or, they could have given her a backstory similar to the one given to your foster-father -- she was an adventurer but settled down. ANY of those would have helped to make her sensible. Instead, the developers just left her storyline in an irrational state. That's annoying, sloppy, and stupid.

Jim Kata said:
Dialog. Tons of useless dialog. Tons of it! In most cases your answers have no effect, either. You select a, b, or c and they all lead to the exact same response! What's the point?
FWIW, I liked it. I was actually nervous going into my trial. I avoided all the "skip the talking and write stuff into my journal" options. I read everything, and I felt that much of the writing was very good. Of course, I remember thinking differently when I had only played the first few hours of the game, so I guess the beginning sucks in comparison to the rest.

Jim Kata said:
The keep. Well, it has some odd parts, but overall building and managing the keep is the part of the game I liked the most. It is pretty detailed and interesting.
Well, I agree but I can't help feeling that they fully ripped off the NWN 1 module, Darkness over Daggerford. The guys at Ossian Studios did some great work with the stronghold in their module. It is so obviously a precursor to the keep in NWN 2 that I almost wonder if Obsidian had to pay them off to prevent them from shouting "plagarism" too loudly. Still, I'm not sad to see the keep in NWN 2. I'm glad I experienced both. And NWN 2 takes it to another level, so that's cool to see it ramped up.

Thanks for your review. It was good. If you ever replay the game, maybe consider some of the mods to help you have a better experience.
 

Jim Kata

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suibhne said:
The Walkin' Dude said:
aweigh said:
I thought you'd finished it a million times already considering how much you gush about it. How far did you get before you decided it was the best game ever?

Well, I played 3 times through what is generally believed to be the crapiest part of the OC, the 1st act. And yet even so I believe it to be a very good RPG. Although they should definitely cut out 60% of the orc caves...

That, good sir, deserves a ROFLCOPTER after your embarrassing posts about this being the best RPG EVAR!@!1111 I'll never again give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the question of whether you're just trolling.

He is not trolling - he is just a fucktard.
 

Jim Kata

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kris said:
Jim Kata said:
kris said:
Jim Kata said:
Otherwise, reading is the hard?

There's some irony. You should try reading my post.

Pointless dialog is never a good thing. Planescape torment is one of my favorite games for its great dialog (and options) but most of the dialog in this game is worthless crap and some is very poorly written - ie by someone who does not know the difference between insure and ensure.

As for the cutscenes they are constant, and not very well done. Anyone who enjoys them would have to be an idiot.

Oh, I read it and I got what you where saying, but I find it a small complaint as you can click away something you don't like. The problem is most likely them having many writers, for sure they have different people responsible for every act...

There are quite a few cutscenes, but not as many as you claimed. Some parts get bogged down by them, while in others they make sense, a bit like I said about different writers. I seem to recollect there was four or more almost in a row after you meet the elf girl. As they said before though they used the cutscenes for some of the dialogue, you know to make it "cinematic". In KOTOR ALL dialogue was "cutscenes" I believe.

1. You can't just ignore it all without losing the actual inforation or missing the good dialogs.

2. Maybe I should have sayd 2.43 x 10^35 power. Only a fucktard like volourn would take that as a literal count. There are an astounding number of them, and many are puzzling and senseless.
 

Jim Kata

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doctor_kaz said:
I don't really get where all the hate for the interface comes from. It's a step backwards from NWN no doubt, but Chrissakes it's still a hundred times better than any shitty console port interface like the one found in Kotor or Fable, or the maggot-infested dogshit of Gothic 1. I hear more complaints about NWN2's interface than lots of games whose interfaces have been much worse. Why is that?

I have had no problem with the quickcast bar and I find inventory and spells management for all of my party members to be very very easy. The interface could definitely use some improvements, no doubt. It should have had marching order functionality and a "select all" key, and I miss the functionality that lets you switch between hotkey bars by pressing the Shift or Ctrl key. These are still minor issues though. I find that all of them are. For about 75% of the fights, I let the AI run my teammates, since they are easy enough to not require micro management. For the other 25%, I queue up actions. I haven't had a lot of problems doing this. As far as ease of use goes, I find the game to be about on par with the Bioware Infinity engine. Maybe slightly lower.

Well, taking gothic as an example, I think the issue is that you have much more to do in NWN2. the interface is really, really poor in Gothic, but the actions you are doing are much simpler. So, once you get used to it, it is no big deal. In the case of NWN2 you are controlling a whole party and need a more robust interface, but the one there just is not up to the task of controlling a whole party.
 

Volourn

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I hope you mean G1. Not G3. 'Cause G3's interface is pretty damn good. Period.
 

Volourn

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Ok. You are cool then (this time :D ).

P.S. Play it. The game not the demo. The demo is evil. :twisted:
 

suibhne

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doctor_kaz said:
I don't really get where all the hate for the interface comes from. It's a step backwards from NWN no doubt, but Chrissakes it's still a hundred times better than any shitty console port interface like the one found in Kotor or Fable, or the maggot-infested dogshit of Gothic 1. I hear more complaints about NWN2's interface than lots of games whose interfaces have been much worse. Why is that?

I actually think most of the interface is pretty good, but here are some issues I think about when complaining:

1. The minimap re-enables itself every time you change to a new module; it doesn't respect your preferences.

2. The modal buttons for Parry, Flurry, etc. don't work consistently. They're not quite as bad as in NWN, but they still misfire frequently and can even take several combat rounds to enable. And there's no way to set them to "always on unless I tell you otherwise", which would be extremely helpful for actions like Flurry of Blows, Power Attack, etc.

3. The inventory is still horrible, with no auto-sorting and too much horizontal mouse movement required.

4. Adding items to the quickslots at the bottom is a hierophantic process at first: you can drag inventory items there, but you can also drag some feats (but not all) - and there's no clear indication of which can be quickslotted and which can't. (Not a big problem for me, a D&D rules geek, but this would probably be very frustrating for a first-timer.)

5. The easiest way to give orders to individual characters is to select each character individually - but party members tie all of your orders into the "lead character" you've selected at any given moment, so switching to a different lead character (to give commands) can suddenly "reset" their orders.

6. There's no "select all" function for your party. "Attack nearest" doesn't accomplish the same thing, because it tells each character to attack their nearest enemy rather than a single enemy. In a game with features like flanking and Sneak Attacks, this interface clunkiness is highly frustrating.

7. The camera is frustrating. With the most recent patch, I find it fairly workable, but I still hate the fact that it automatically re-centers the screen every time you give orders to a new character; this really undermines any tactical approach to battles.

All of these are interface problems, which is why I talk about the interface in such unflattering terms.
 

obediah

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doctor_kaz said:
I don't really get where all the hate for the interface comes from. It's a step backwards from NWN no doubt, but Chrissakes it's still a hundred times better than any shitty console port interface like the one found in Kotor or Fable,

Are you on teh mutherfukin drugs? Fable was a shit game, but the interface on the PC version was the absolute bomb. After playing for a few hours, my mouse actually said "You complete me". Unfortunately, I said "This is the shittiest game ever" and that was that.
 

doctor_kaz

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suibhne said:
...All of these are interface problems, which is why I talk about the interface in such unflattering terms.

I have absolutely no argument with any of those complaints. They are all legit. They are all stuff that should be fixed, if possible. It's just that I think that they are all minor, given the big scheme of things. All of this complaining about minor stuff in NWN2, to me, is like looking a gift horse in the mouth. We finally got a party-based PC RPG!!! One that isn't dumbed down for consoles!!!!!! How long have we been waiting for this!?!?!? . Where was all of this interface scrutiny when Kotor came out?

As a long time rabid PC RPG fan and PC game player, I'm very tired of getting buttfucked by consoles and watching numerous franchises and developers jump ship from the PC to make X-Box games. Finally, along comes NWN2 after a three year drought from true D&D RPG's. In the meantime, Atari has shoveled every shitty D&D game imagineable out the door -- dumbed down button mashers, an RTS, and even an MMOMRPG. The only thing Atari hasn't made yet is a D&D-theme falling blocks puzzle game. Don't you want Atari to get the message that they should fund more games like this instead of funding another Demon Stone or a Driv3r game?

The interface could have used more refinements, but compared to the wretched interface of every console port RPG that I have played in the past three years, it's a damn wet dream. I ask anybody here who hates NWN's interface -- how is this worse than Kotor's? And this is our only true D&D PC RPG of the past three years, with no others announced yet. If people don't buy this game, Atari will go back to making shitty D&D spinoffs again, and all we'll get will be shitty console ports with crap interfaces designed for an X-Box 360 contoller.

obediah said:
doctor_kaz said:
I don't really get where all the hate for the interface comes from. It's a step backwards from NWN no doubt, but Chrissakes it's still a hundred times better than any shitty console port interface like the one found in Kotor or Fable,

Are you on teh mutherfukin drugs? Fable was a shit game, but the interface on the PC version was the absolute bomb. After playing for a few hours, my mouse actually said "You complete me". Unfortunately, I said "This is the shittiest game ever" and that was that.

You didn't play the game for long enough. Fable featured the same shitty layered menu and inventory system that defines console ports to PC. Eating an apple or reading a book took about five or six mouse clicks. There were only 10 hotkey-able actions+items, and best of all, your "special attack" was automatically tied to the same button as "sprint". Out of all of the shitty leftover relics of a console controller that I have seen in recent years, this one takes the cake. I think that I lost track of the number of times that I tried to run away from a fight to save some health and accidentally performed my special attack on a nearby enemy. The interface sucked ass. I enjoyed the game though.
 

Jim Kata

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doctor_kaz said:
suibhne said:
...All of these are interface problems, which is why I talk about the interface in such unflattering terms.

I have absolutely no argument with any of those complaints. They are all legit. They are all stuff that should be fixed, if possible. It's just that I think that they are all minor, given the big scheme of things. All of this complaining about minor stuff in NWN2, to me, is like looking a gift horse in the mouth. We finally got a party-based PC RPG!!! One that isn't dumbed down for consoles!!!!!! How long have we been waiting for this!?!?!? . Where was all of this interface scrutiny when Kotor came out?

As a long time rabid PC RPG fan and PC game player, I'm very tired of getting buttfucked by consoles and watching numerous franchises and developers jump ship from the PC to make X-Box games. Finally, along comes NWN2 after a three year drought from true D&D RPG's. In the meantime, Atari has shoveled every shitty D&D game imagineable out the door -- dumbed down button mashers, an RTS, and even an MMOMRPG. The only thing Atari hasn't made yet is a D&D-theme falling blocks puzzle game. Don't you want Atari to get the message that they should fund more games like this instead of funding another Demon Stone or a Driv3r game?

The interface could have used more refinements, but compared to the wretched interface of every console port RPG that I have played in the past three years, it's a damn wet dream. I ask anybody here who hates NWN's interface -- how is this worse than Kotor's? And this is our only true D&D PC RPG of the past three years, with no others announced yet. If people don't buy this game, Atari will go back to making shitty D&D spinoffs again, and all we'll get will be shitty console ports with crap interfaces designed for an X-Box 360 contoller.

obediah said:
doctor_kaz said:
I don't really get where all the hate for the interface comes from. It's a step backwards from NWN no doubt, but Chrissakes it's still a hundred times better than any shitty console port interface like the one found in Kotor or Fable,

Are you on teh mutherfukin drugs? Fable was a shit game, but the interface on the PC version was the absolute bomb. After playing for a few hours, my mouse actually said "You complete me". Unfortunately, I said "This is the shittiest game ever" and that was that.

You didn't play the game for long enough. Fable featured the same shitty layered menu and inventory system that defines console ports to PC. Eating an apple or reading a book took about five or six mouse clicks. There were only 10 hotkey-able actions+items, and best of all, your "special attack" was automatically tied to the same button as "sprint". Out of all of the shitty leftover relics of a console controller that I have seen in recent years, this one takes the cake. I think that I lost track of the number of times that I tried to run away from a fight to save some health and accidentally performed my special attack on a nearby enemy. The interface sucked ass. I enjoyed the game though.

Ports do suck, but I don't ever bother with them in the first place, because I know they will suck.

I can't see how you can pass off the interface flaws as minor, as they are NOT. They are serious flaws. The sad thing is that the fixes needed to make the interface go from really horrible to really good are relatively small. Fixing the modes would take care of half my frustration. It is also an nterface that is better when you get used it it, but man o man when I first started I was simply stunned. I can't count the times I simply could not figure out how to even do something really simple.
 

WittyName

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What was so good about the keep? Sure, I thought it was neat as a concept but just seemed pretty bland in operation.

Building wise it's not hard at all to amass the gold needed to get every improvement possible and I'm not sure how and when some of the improvements paid off.

(Keep in mind as you read these, I never bothered with crafting or alchemy.)

* The Library: Had some scrolls in it and tomes for enchanting. The sage guy sat there but other than that...

* West Wing: Dining Room, Kitchen, some other room... a few npcs sat there.

* Personal Quarters: It had a desk... and...

* The Walls: Since gold was so easy to come by I have no idea whether the state of the walls makes a difference during the siege portion of the game. I assume they do.

*Shops: Ok so the blacksmiths are needed to equip the men but the general merchants didn't seem that useful. I guess because I never bothered to buy anything from merchants since tons of magical weapons and armor dropped. Basically it was just a house where a Dark Elf and Kobold sat.

*Tower: I went with the Wizard. As far as I can tell... he doesn't do anything. Didn't show up during the siege to help... nothing. Just sat there and sold stuff.

*Church/Monastery: Went with the monastery. Had some monks in it... but they didn't do a damn thing.

*Other stuff: That guy Uncus or whatever his name was -- the shady guy -- made a big deal about how he had information but he just sat in the main room selling stuff. Never had anything to say. The giant spider I allied with sat in the basement... oh and made a cape... nothing else.

I never fully understood how the special missions worked or how the game determined that time had passed. I sent men out on a few of them but didn't notice any significant effects other than a standard "good job" message. I guess the whole thing was a simulator of sorts -- in terms of the patrols/missions/merchants -- but it just seemed muddled and confused in how it all carried out.
 

Jim Kata

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Well, actually every upgrade helps in the fight in some way. The wizard will cast fireballs, the clerics will help the health of your troops, you need the smithies to upgrade the troops' gear, etc. etc.

My only disappointment is that as you mentioned, the shops do not seem to offer anything significantly useful. That and there is no obvious way in which time passes.

I actually was foolish and built the defenses first and never made any money from the keep, unfortunately. Instead I wasted like half a million on it! Later it made money, but withdrawing in 5k increments was just painful.

The special missions all had an effect of some kind, I believe - such as the tax collection bringing money, etc.
 

cutterjohn

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Jim Kata said:
Well, actually every upgrade helps in the fight in some way. The wizard will cast fireballs, the clerics will help the health of your troops, you need the smithies to upgrade the troops' gear, etc. etc.

My only disappointment is that as you mentioned, the shops do not seem to offer anything significantly useful. That and there is no obvious way in which time passes.

I actually was foolish and built the defenses first and never made any money from the keep, unfortunately. Instead I wasted like half a million on it! Later it made money, but withdrawing in 5k increments was just painful.

The special missions all had an effect of some kind, I believe - such as the tax collection bringing money, etc.
*ahem* I was curious about the stronghold aspect of the game, so I cheated a little the other day:
According to the FAQ that I was looking through the stronghold time goes from 2% to 100%, which means that you can add various things to the stronghold at various percentages until 100% when you can no longer do any upgrades for the stronghold.

The FAQ, further, goes on to mention that by doing various quests, etc. in the OC apparently has triggers that advance the state/time/percentage counter. i.e. "real" time apparently has no bearing what so ever...

The same FAQ also mentioned that the game prevents you from further upgrades at various percentages until you advance the "time" to the next "level".

(I also found out what all those ore veins that I kept finding were useful for... I didn't really look too much at the effects of various things, but just the general stronghold mechanics and costs, but I plan to look more closely at the ore and NPC sections such that I don't miss anyone as I'll never replay the OC again, ever.)
 

Jim Kata

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cutterjohn said:
Jim Kata said:
Well, actually every upgrade helps in the fight in some way. The wizard will cast fireballs, the clerics will help the health of your troops, you need the smithies to upgrade the troops' gear, etc. etc.

My only disappointment is that as you mentioned, the shops do not seem to offer anything significantly useful. That and there is no obvious way in which time passes.

I actually was foolish and built the defenses first and never made any money from the keep, unfortunately. Instead I wasted like half a million on it! Later it made money, but withdrawing in 5k increments was just painful.

The special missions all had an effect of some kind, I believe - such as the tax collection bringing money, etc.
*ahem* I was curious about the stronghold aspect of the game, so I cheated a little the other day:
According to the FAQ that I was looking through the stronghold time goes from 2% to 100%, which means that you can add various things to the stronghold at various percentages until 100% when you can no longer do any upgrades for the stronghold.

The FAQ, further, goes on to mention that by doing various quests, etc. in the OC apparently has triggers that advance the state/time/percentage counter. i.e. "real" time apparently has no bearing what so ever...

The same FAQ also mentioned that the game prevents you from further upgrades at various percentages until you advance the "time" to the next "level".

(I also found out what all those ore veins that I kept finding were useful for... I didn't really look too much at the effects of various things, but just the general stronghold mechanics and costs, but I plan to look more closely at the ore and NPC sections such that I don't miss anyone as I'll never replay the OC again, ever.)

I thought it was something basically like that. The ore veins are no big deal, but you do need them to get the better upgrades for your men's armor and weapons.
 
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Time passes every time you go from talking to Kana/the architect guy to entering the courtyard or keep respectively.
I never saw the wizard casting fireballs, incidentally.
 

OccupatedVoid

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This is how I got my keep finished quickly:
1. Talk to the Builder Dude
2. Go in the Keep
3. Go back outside
4. Look he's done!
 

Jim Kata

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Well, I ended up restarting because of various issues. Basically, I got fucked with my crafting. It turns out that certain characters will end up using certain equipment and a certain other character gets killed, so I have wasted all my crafting items.

Also, it turns out that adamantium sucks for crafting because its armor gets less dex bonus and enchantment room, and its magic damage on its weapons count as an enchantment slot, so it's probably a stupid idea to every use it. Not when you can have a holy keen cold pressed iron weapon instead.

It kind of annoys me that you end up with a certain weapon it prompts you to use. It is a good one, but I usually don't like to use swords.

I usually like to use scythes for the 4x criticals and having both piercing and slashing damage, but the falchion critical range loots mighty nice, especially if it is keen, so since that weapon you get it a 'universal' sword, does that mean it would count as a falchion for the purpose of feats?

Also, do keen and improved critical stack in this game?
 
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since that weapon you get it a 'universal' sword, does that mean it would count as a falchion for the purpose of feats?

I assumed it meant that nobody was proficient in using it and anyone using a fighter who specialized in anything got utterly gimped.
 

Zomg

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Buh, don't restart. I only crafted enough to figure out that I didn't want to bother, and there's no particular need to do it. Keen and Improved Critical don't stack, and Falchions suck because virtually everything in the last third or so of the game is immune to criticals. I'm pretty sure no skills apply to "Universal sword".

Adamantium weapons are better than you think, since they go right through stoneskin and golem weapon immunity. Adding on one more gay lttle +1d6 isn't better than +2 damage and adamantine type.
 

Jim Kata

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Admiral jimbob said:
since that weapon you get it a 'universal' sword, does that mean it would count as a falchion for the purpose of feats?

I assumed it meant that nobody was proficient in using it and anyone using a fighter who specialized in anything got utterly gimped.

Well, that would suck. If so I would not bother using it....
 

Jim Kata

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Zomg said:
Buh, don't restart. I only crafted enough to figure out that I didn't want to bother, and there's no particular need to do it. Keen and Improved Critical don't stack, and Falchions suck because virtually everything in the last third or so of the game is immune to criticals. I'm pretty sure no skills apply to "Universal sword".

Adamantium weapons are better than you think, since they go right through stoneskin and golem weapon immunity. Adding on one more gay lttle +1d6 isn't better than +2 damage and adamantine type.

Well, holy and axiomatic add 2d6 each for chaotic evil opponents, which I assume the shadows qualify as. It's also nice to have cold pressed iron for some enemies - I have not seen even one stoneskin being used so far in the game and my guys are level 18/20.

If keen does not stack with improved critical, then I guess there is no point in having keen on weapons, at least.

Is there some secret to killing the dragon on the mountain? It seems immensely difficult, even with my uber buffed cleric. I can only get it down to like 90% of its hitpoints.

I am thinking maybe I need to have sand in the party and have him dispelling the dragon or something.

Part of the problem is I ended up with stupid weapons and stupid npcs due to the progression of the plot. I should not have let khelgar turn into a monk like that, which was really mostly accidental.

BTW I think it is totally ridiculous he goes straight from level 15 fighter to level 15 monk.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
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Location
Scotland
The dragon is the hardest battle in the game, easily. I was a sorcerer, so I got me and Sand together to buff, dispel (vital) and blast it with maximised cones of cold and the like. Took a good few tries... to be honest, I wish there were more such battles in the game.
 

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