What is a cRPG? 2014 edition

[Raapys]

RPG: The success of a character's action is decided by that character's skill.

It's simple, it makes sense, it's what other games mean when they say 'has RPG elements!!', and it's what all real RPGs and aRPGs have in common.

No, thats just one part of the equation.

there must be diversity in content which is available only to specific builds or classes and player choices. which cannot exists without limits.
the dreaded "content" that most players will not see!!!!

That's never been a core part of the genre though. The only core part throughout its entire history has been the thing I mentioned. And the stuff you mention does well in any genre; a shooter can quickly become a better game with some player choices and consequences. So too can strategy games, simulators, etc. Those are concept unrelated to genre as far as I'm concerned.

 

[sser]

Moreso than any other game, I feel like RPGs have the strongest feeling of character progression. Like you start small and build your way up via quests in the gameworld. I feel like a lot of traditional elements of RPGs are getting blended into other genres though so it's no wonder we can't even define what they are anymore. But most games just take the numbers part of it - the "building a character" part - they rarely take the quests as a form of doing it.

 

[hiver]

Drew

mm-hmm, you almost got me there, good thinking... but you see, the success is never decided just by character skill.
player skill plays a role, but even if you would minimize it to any single smallest "action" you (your character) can attempt - it is always also influenced by stats of equipment and by previous choices, like for example dialogue choices. - which are not always dependent on skills or stats.
like for example, as far as dialogue choices are concerned, you can piss off an NPC or an ally just by choosing a specific dialogue line - which will make you fail some future choice or action. - regardless of your character skills and stats.

Wouldn't that simply separate "good" RPGs and "bad" rpgs, and not RPGs from other genres?

It is one of the defining differences between TRUE RPGs and action-hybrid RPGs, yes.



Raapys

That's never been a core part of the genre though. The only core part throughout its entire history has been the thing I mentioned. And the stuff you mention does well in any genre; a shooter can quickly become a better game with some player choices and consequences. So too can strategy games, simulators, etc. Those are concept unrelated to genre as far as I'm concerned.

Yes it was, it is. Only in RPGs it is dependent on character skills and various stats and player choices. Unlike in other games.
If there is no differences in content availability - then character skills and stats are useless. irrelevant.


sser

I feel like RPGs have the strongest feeling of character progression. Like you start small and build your way up via quests in the gameworld.

true.

yet alone it is not enough. the effect of that progression must be felt in the gameworld for it to be meaningful.
- in various ways, not just story wise. -

 

[NotAGolfer]

Obviously, if you have an extra chromosome and don't bother to play your character with their skills and weaknesses in mind, you might just end up coming to a conclusion like that.

Character skill with player choice.

Yes, character skill overrides player skill, by the simple practice of it being turn based.

Sure, I chose the wrong weapon for my build and messed up by aiming for the eyes despite only 50% to hit chance instead of just using burst mode with my SMG and I didn't pay attention that my HP dropped to a dangerous level and instead of using cover at the end of turn I stand there in the middle of the street like I'm fucking John Wayne but all is fine and dandy because my char's skills are much higher than that wimp's I'm facing.

So, your character is much more skilled. But since you're retarded and make terrible decisions, you die.
Not because you cannot shoot or respond in time, but because you make the wrong choices.

And? Making these wrong choices is failing at player skill checks if you will. These player skills are not overridden by character skills, both complement each other, even if character skills might make those player skill challenges easier. If you reach the point where character skills really override player skills the game stops being fun and becomes a grind (enemies become trash mobs, sneaking past them becomes a braindead chore where you can just walk from A to B with the sneak-skill activated, etc.). A good example would be AoD with a pacifist build btw..

The way you guys argue reminds me of Vince himself, who also thinks that because those player skills involved in Fallout are piss easy in the end it's okay to just scrap them altogether (like picking the right spot to use my repair skill on the town map) because we're all oh so hardcore and older games were oh so difficult (besides the difficulty to overcome bad interfaces) and that's what made them fun (okay, so where exactly is the difficulty in leveling up my specialized character build in AoD again?). Think again.

 

[Lhynn]

Obviously, if you have an extra chromosome and don't bother to play your character with their skills and weaknesses in mind, you might just end up coming to a conclusion like that.

Character skill with player choice.

Yes, character skill overrides player skill, by the simple practice of it being turn based.

Sure, I chose the wrong weapon for my build and messed up by aiming for the eyes despite only 50% to hit chance instead of just using burst mode with my SMG and I didn't pay attention that my HP dropped to a dangerous level and instead of using cover at the end of turn I stand there in the middle of the street like I'm fucking John Wayne but all is fine and dandy because my char's skills are much higher than that wimp's I'm facing.

So, your character is much more skilled. But since you're retarded and make terrible decisions, you die.
Not because you cannot shoot or respond in time, but because you make the wrong choices.

RPG: The success of a character's action is decided by that character's skill.

It's simple, it makes sense, it's what other games mean when they say 'has RPG elements!!', and it's what all real RPGs and aRPGs have in common.

No, thats just one part of the equation.

there must be diversity in content which is available only to specific builds or classes and player choices. which cannot exists without limits.
the dreaded "content" that most players will not see!!!!

Wouldn't that simply separate "good" RPGs and "bad" rpgs, and not RPGs from other genres?

Fuck you Drew you completely ninjaed me.

Anyway, to make a good definition of an RPG we should just list features and core features that are in every rpg ever made, then work our way as far away from bioshock infinite as we possibly can. It doesnt matter how broad it is really, we are simply defining a genre.

 

[HiddenX]

Ultima 7

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

• Must Have
  C1: you can control one or more characters -> yes
  C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …) -> yes
  C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire -> yes
• Should Have
  C4: you can create your characters -> no - characters are predefined
  C5: character development requires careful thought and planning -> not really

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

• Must Have
  E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations -> yes
  E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (=> not only puzzle items) -> yes
  E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info) -> yes, a lot
• Should Have
  E4: there are NPCs in the game -> yes, many
  E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching) -> yes
  E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …) -> yes
  E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …) -> yes
  E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …) -> yes

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

• Must Have
  S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …) -> yes
  S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest) -> yes (many)
  S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story) -> yes
• Should Have
  S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions -> yes
  S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …) -> yes
  S6: you can make choices in those interactions -> yes
  S7: your choices have consequences -> yes
  S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …) -> yes

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

• Should Have
  F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …) -> yes
  F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls) -> yes
  F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible) -> no

Ultima 7 features all Must Haves => it is a CRPG -> surprise
The Should Haves C4, C5 and F3 are not fulfilled.

So the CRPG must be qualified with a tag which is is easy in case of Ultima 7:
Ultima 7 is an Adventure CRPG, character development and combat are the weaker sides of the game. The game shines with quests, story, exploration, riddles and choices with consequences.

 

[Midair]

HiddenX, all you are doing is listing elements of strategy games or adventure games. Accept that rpgs are a hybrid genre and the definition is much simpler. We know what strategy games are and what adventure games are so we can simply say that an rpg is a half-breed containing significant amounts of both genres.

At first something might not sound like a strategy element, but replace "character" with "unit" or "development" with "building" and you see the mechanics are the same.

 

[Raapys]

Raapys

That's never been a core part of the genre though. The only core part throughout its entire history has been the thing I mentioned. And the stuff you mention does well in any genre; a shooter can quickly become a better game with some player choices and consequences. So too can strategy games, simulators, etc. Those are concept unrelated to genre as far as I'm concerned.

Yes it was, it is. Only in RPGs it is dependent on character skills and various stats and player choices. Unlike in other games.
If there is no differences in content availability - then character skills and stats are useless. irrelevant.

I don't know about that. To me, the core concept of RPG, whether cRPG, tabletop or something else, has always been virtual characters and combat.

 

[Kron]

Ultimately, it does not matter what makes a game an RPG.
What does matter instead, is that the game has a consistent personality, soul, and mood. To be an inspired creation, just like with any other kind of game.

A certain game might have all the features to classify as an RPG; but if it is derivative and uninspired, then it is pretty much without value to me.

EDIT: Which is why I am probably uninterested in most the AWESOME Shitstarter RPGs.

 

[HiddenX]

HiddenX, all you are doing is listing elements of strategy games or adventure games. Accept that rpgs are a hybrid genre and the definition is much simpler. We know what strategy games are and what adventure games are so we can simply say that an rpg is a half-breed containing significant amounts of both genres.

At first something might not sound like a strategy element, but replace "character" with "unit" or "development" with "building" and you see the mechanics are the same.

I accepted this long ago

If we just say a game with Exploration, Story, Character Development and Combat elements is a CRPG then we have to label many adventures, strategy games, linear Hack&Slays, Rogue Likes … as CRPG, too.

So we have to be a little more specific.

 

[Excidium]

Is Phase based combat not counted as a style?

Pretty good post HiddenX.

Phase-based is just a silly name for a variety of turn-based combat

Please educate yourself before spouting bullshit

Are you seriously this dumb?

 

[Whiran]

Here you go HiddenX, using your system, you clearly believe that Titanfall is an RPG.

Titanfall

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

• Must Have
  C1: you can control one or more characters -> yes
  C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …) -> yes
  C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire -> yes
• Should Have
  C4: you can create your characters -> yes - you can pick what abilities you want, your avatar, and what initial gear choices
  C5: character development requires careful thought and planning -> yes - the choices you make decide how you will play the game

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

• Must Have
  E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations -> yes
  E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (=> not only puzzle items) -> yes
  E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info) -> yes, a lot
• Should Have
  E4: there are NPCs in the game -> yes, many
  E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching) -> yes, open world
  E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …) -> yes, many ways
  E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …) -> yes
  E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …) -> yes

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

• Must Have
  S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …) -> yes, NPCs inform you of what's going on
  S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest) -> yes - there is a main quest and many subquests to complete it
  S3:[/B] you can progress through connected events (= Story) -> yes - capturing and defending one stronghold leads to the next
• Should Have
  S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions -> yes
  S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …) -> yes
  S6: you can make choices in those interactions -> yes
  S7: your choices have consequences -> yes
  S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …) -> yes

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

• Should Have
  F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …) -> yes
  F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls) -> yes
  F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible) -> yes

Titanfall features all Must Haves => it is a CRPG -> surprise
All of The Should Haves are fulfilled. Titanfall is the best CRPG ever! (according to HiddenX)

 

[set]

Mainstream Industry Definition:

Any game that has "perks", "levels" and "drops" AND/OR any game that has "choices" and "deep story".

Real Definition:

1. Degrees of freedom: Players are supposed to be put in the "shoes" of the avatar they are "playing". Their avatar has choices that are true to that role and the player has the freedom to make them, right or wrong. The inability for a player to make a logical solution to a story-based problem is a critical failure of any RPG. RPGs have high degrees of freedom.
2. "Real world": The world is "real". It is simulated through mechanics like "perks", "levels" and "drops" (or other mechanics in general, as complex or real-like as the kinds you'd find in a game like Dwarf Fortress). The world has consistent rules that are understood by the players that live the universe of the game's narrative. The mechanics described above are meant to simulate the growth of character and advancement of story and conflict. The inability for an RPG to simulate "realness" to a sufficient degree is a critical failure of that RPG.
3. Personal: RPGs are personal stories that are concerned with the personalities, relationships and growths of the player and the characters of the game. RPGs are "social" games (this doesn't mean they are multiplayer, just concerned with society and relationships).

Not all RPGs yet adhere to 1) and 2) but I think my definition is sufficiently simple and inclusive, while clearly showing games like Bioshock Infinite aren't RPGs (their mechanics don't simulate anything and there is no player agency).

(All) Traditional RPGs go to great lengths to consturct mechanics so players can simulate the difficult of all things from hash slinging to basket weaving.
(Most) Traditional RPGs go to to great lengths to construct stories that evoke emotion or reflect some idea of reality.
(All) Traditional RPGs are done in groups of people and it's a highly social kind of game, thus 3) holds that any video game RPG should reflect this inspection of social roles and social play.

Videogameified versions are no different, thus any so-called RPG follows 1) for sure and 2) to some extent. 3) to the least extent, but still to a barest minimum even among very old crpgs.

 

[hiver]

I don't know about that. To me, the core concept of RPG, whether cRPG, tabletop or something else, has always been virtual characters and combat.

Just think about it... these things were the most early RPGs consisted off, and it is one of the core defining features, but even in combat centric RPGs (where dialogue doesnt play any important role) - the content(combat) is limited by character skills and stats + equipment stats.
And we cant just count those early RPGs alone.

I think my definition is simple enough, yet it encompasses all the core features, C&C being one of them, not the only one.

while hidenX list is a good overview of many different secondary features that are used to present these core features in gameplay.

 

[Coyote]

E4: there are NPCs in the game -> yes, many
E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching) -> yes
E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …) -> yes

You sunk my destroyer!

 

[HiddenX]

Whiran
I don't know Titanfall only older Call of Duties.

And these games missing a lot in the exploration category E1, E5 in Story S6,S7,S8 , and character building C1,C4,C5, so what?

 

[Whiran]

Whiran
I don't know Titanfall only older Call of Duties.

And these games missing a lot in the exploration category E1, E5 in Story S6,S7,S8 , and character building C1,C4,C5, so what?

Using your system I just proved, by your criteria, that Titanfall is an RPG under your classification.

If you're okay with that, that's great. It's your system after all.

I don't agree that Titanfall is an RPG but you think it's one. To each their own.

 

[set]

BioWare did say CoD is a lot like an RPGs so it could be true yano? i mean it was bioware that said it and they made bg2

 

[HiddenX]

Whiran
Shooters like Farcry 3 are very close to the CRPG genre. I have no problem with that.

If Titanfall features all these elements it is certainly a game many CRPG fans would enjoy.

I could build in a kill switch for Action Shooters in the definition:

Must Have or Should Have under Combat:
Combat outcome doesn't have something to do with the players physical abilties (hand eye coordination)

 

[hiver]

Shooters like Farcry 3 are very close to the CRPG genre. I have no problem with that.

Oh boy...

Using your system I just proved, by your criteria, that Titanfall is an RPG under your classification.

I think my definition would stand to such scrutiny.

As far as i can see and deduce, it provides not only the clear definition of core features that work together in ways unique to RPGs, but can be also used to differentiate between several main different kinds of RPGs.

like this:

Specific Character vs Player skill importance corresponding to main kinds of cRPGs.

 

[set]

Skyrim requires player skill? The absence of "character skill" does not imply the presence of any required "player skill".

Skyrim requires neither, which is why it is not a good game.

 

[Midair]

From HiddenX's diagram, story + exploration = adventure game.
And character development = strategy game. Why? because you have separated the story element, leaving characters as equivalent to units in a strategy game.

That is why I am saying you do not need to define elements of rpgs, as they are only elements of strategy games and adventure games and we already know what those genres are. An rpg is defined by the hybridization of these two genres. Any game that contains significant elements of both is an rpg.

This is clear in the history of the genre with D&D being the mechanics of a war game modified to support a collaborative adventure.

 

[HiddenX]

hiver
I prefer this diagram - it shows the dependencies between the main CRPG categories Character Development, Exploration, Story and Combat.

 

[HiddenX]

From HiddenX's diagram, story + exploration = adventure game.
And character development = strategy game. Why? because you have separated the story element, leaving characters as equivalent to units in a strategy game.

That is why I am saying you do not need to define elements of rpgs, as they are only elements of strategy games and adventure games and we already know what those genres are. An rpg is defined by the hybridization of these two genres. Any game that contains significant elements of both is an rpg.

This is clear in the history of the genre with D&D being the mechanics of a war game modified to support a collaborative adventure.

I agree with you (to some degree)

(I) I could define necessary elements for strategy/tactical combat games
(II) I could define necessary elements for adventure games

And then say: If all of (I) and all of (II) is fulfilled you have a CRPG.

I don't do this because I'm mainly interested in CRPGs
(I) + (II) = CRPG is a bit too simple nowadays.
I had to use even more abstract wording (chars = units etc.) to fit for all genres.

 

[hiver]

Skyrim requires player skill? The absence of "character skill" does not imply the presence of any required "player skill".
Skyrim requires neither, which is why it is not a good game.

You talkin to me?

hiver
I prefer this diagram - it shows the dependencies between the main CRPG categories Character Development, Exploration, Story and Combat.
-

whoa man...

btw, my illustration is purposefully limited only on showing relations between strenght of character skill vs player skill.
it doesnt contain the rest of my definition.