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Non-lethal combat

Mr Happy

Scholar
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
574
I read something about this somewhere, though I cant seem to find it now. I like the idea, but how does it work? Is every enemy you fight knocked unconscious before they die, or is there some knock-out move (whack with hilt?) or "toggle non-lethal mode!" kinda thing?

Minor concern really, but it does seem a bit anti-climatic to have to go around performing finishing moves on everybody after the fighting is done if you really want the guys dead. Plus, no death animations D:

Speaking of which, besides upping your body count and all, how much of a difference is there between leaving somebody dead and leaving them unconscious? Is it less of a crime/reputation changer to knock somebody out? Could you meet them again, or are they essentially out of the game?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Mr Happy said:
I read something about this somewhere, though I cant seem to find it now. I like the idea, but how does it work? Is every enemy you fight knocked unconscious before they die, or is there some knock-out move (whack with hilt?) or "toggle non-lethal mode!" kinda thing?
Similar to the Gothic system. It seems to work very well there.

Minor concern really, but it does seem a bit anti-climatic to have to go around performing finishing moves on everybody after the fighting is done if you really want the guys dead.
Well, you won't be fighting legions, so you won't have to perform hundreds (or even ten) coup de grâce strikes per battle.

Plus, no death animations D:
There are death animations.

Speaking of which, besides upping your body count and all, how much of a difference is there between leaving somebody dead and leaving them unconscious? Is it less of a crime/reputation changer to knock somebody out? Could you meet them again, or are they essentially out of the game?
In AoD you don't simply move from one area to another leaving NPCs behind - dead or alive, who cares. Instead, you will meet and deal with the same NPCs constantly. Depending on your styles, some NPCs would be better off dead and some alive.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Why not give possibility to lethal attack or non lethal (selecting icon on/off manner) you would not have to finish each enemy then after you knock him down. And haw there can be death animations now (some humans can't be knock down?) or there are only animations of finishing.
 

Joff1981

Educated
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
59
Project: Eternity
Couldn't you use the combat icon on the main UI for this purpose? I assume you can also get into normal combat mode by clicking a weapon in one of the slots like fallout so having a separate button to do the same thing seems a little pointless. If you changed the combat icon to have two different images (say the swords for lethal and a club for non-lethal) then you would be adding usability.
It may be however that you simply don't want players to default to lethal combat in any situation because of the nature of the game i.e. a limited number of NPCs that are used multiple times each unlike other games which have hundreds of NPCs very few of which need to stay alive for later quests.
 

Prunesquallor

Novice
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
24
Joff1981 said:
Couldn't you use the combat icon on the main UI for this purpose? I assume you can also get into normal combat mode by clicking a weapon in one of the slots like fallout so having a separate button to do the same thing seems a little pointless. If you changed the combat icon to have two different images (say the swords for lethal and a club for non-lethal) then you would be adding usability.

A worthy idea.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
Kraszu said:
And haw there can be death animations now (some humans can't be knock down?) or there are only animations of finishing.
Defeating your opponents could be a messy business. Just because combat is non-lethal doesn't mean that your opponents should be able to walk away in mint condition.
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
That risk might encourage players to strike for harder to hit or less damaging areas if they insist on taking someone alive. Maybe a good balance or touch of realism for it. I don't imagine many people getting up from an axe buried in the head even if the attacker was thinking "non-lethal" at the time.
 

Mr Happy

Scholar
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
574
That's why I'm all for a knock out move: when your opponent is weakened, you get a slap-in-face option or something.

edit: overall though, its a pretty insignificant concern. And,

In AoD you don't simply move from one area to another leaving NPCs behind - dead or alive, who cares. Instead, you will meet and deal with the same NPCs constantly. Depending on your styles, some NPCs would be better off dead and some alive.

I like that a lot. Are there any law repercussions (with a certain faction) for choosing to kill vs choosing to let live?
 

Claw

Erudite
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The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
I know Gothic 2 very well and I still can't make sense of that. A kill is by definition NOT a knockout.

Then again, I ain't trying really hard. Is what you were trying to say non-trivial? Don't answer if it's not.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
Claw said:
What about accidentally killing an enemy? Critical strike to the head - oops, he's dead.
Knocks them down.

Mr Happy said:
I like that a lot. Are there any law repercussions (with a certain faction) for choosing to kill vs choosing to let live?
Obviously. Kicking someone's ass and teaching lessons are one thing, taking someone's life is something else. No faction will be happy if you start killing its members.
 

Fryjar

Augur
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
176
So, will the characters only break down, when reaching a certain low hit point range, or will they always pass out, when they've lost all of their hit points (so there's never instant death)?
 

27

Educated
Joined
Jul 1, 2006
Messages
89
Location
Paraelemental Plane of Vodka
I'm almost sure that it was mentioned at least once but not recently, I suppose, as I can't find it around here:
What about ranged weapons? Will bolts, arrows and throwing 'things' still only knock unconscious (in the last case it can be somewhat reasonable - and even most 'realistic' scenario, as flying pots are not considered lethal), or just like in Gothic(s): they make an instant-death exception?

Another thing - poisons. I suppose they (or at least some of them) work in a way similar to Arcanum - draining bits of health for few turns. So are there no deadly poisons, because of the 'no instant-death rule', or do they kill instantly only outside of combat (I assume that the same kind of potion used in 'poisonous kiss' can be applied to a sword/arrow/etc. and that coup de grace is not necessary after such a kiss)?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
In combat different actions (poison, fire, explosion, melee, ranged, critical hits, etc) will eventually (hopefully) reduce your opponent's hit points to zero, which means that he is unable to fight or defend himself for different reasons (unconscious and/or seriously wounded). At this point you can either finish him off or ignore him.

When not in combat (most likely in dialogue mode) you can kill people using critical strikes, traps, poisons, and such. Why do things work in such strange ways? I have no fucking idea at this points as that feature was discussed almost 3 years ago and my memory aint what it used to be.

Btw, what do people think of the non-lethal combat concept? Yay or nay? Come to think about it, we can easily allow non-lethal challenges, but keep everything else lethal and deadly.
 

Claw

Erudite
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Messages
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Location
The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
I like the non-lethal combat, but at the same time I like the idea of having to pay attention to not accidentally kill someone.
Couldn't you have another limit, like -5 health, where a character dies?
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
Claw said:
I like the non-lethal combat, but at the same time I like the idea of having to pay attention to not accidentally kill someone.
Couldn't you have another limit, like -5 health, where a character dies?
+1
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,878
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
Claw said:
I like the non-lethal combat, but at the same time I like the idea of having to pay attention to not accidentally kill someone.
Couldn't you have another limit, like -5 health, where a character dies?

Make it -10! :lol:

No, really, -5 is too little.
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
1,664
Location
South Africa
Maybe make it the other way around, instead of having to choose to finish him off, instead make it so you can choose to save him?

Ie, for a certain period of time, he is considered bleeding to death, but the player can staunch his wounds if he chooses? That way you emphasise the players mercy?

It also might make it seem more reasonable when they don't try to kill you after healing. Gothic3 can seem a little silly in that regard, you knock the tar out of someone and 5 minutes later they've practicallg forgotten about it. If you actually go out of your way to save them when they're dying, then it might feel more realistic that they are thankful for the mercy.

Then again, it could amount to the exact same thing. *shrug*
 

Mjoker

Novice
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
6
Location
Twilight Zone
Vault Dweller said:
[...] Btw, what do people think of the non-lethal combat concept? Yay or nay? [...]
Yay.
I like the concept from Gothic [I, II] very much.

And I like to have a choice: to be bully/aggresive thief or to be murderer. Or not to be very aggressive at all but have a chance to knock down the oponent if he/she really deserves it according to my/PC's opinion, due to circumstances of this particular encounter or some past events that need for example some nice revenge but not necessary killing.
Non-lethal combat gives also another option when there is need to acquire some item from someone who does not want to give it to PC freely. Thief would try some pickpocketing. But for PC who do not with to neither pickpocket duo to low skill nor simply murder there is another way.

I suppose that such action would have some influence on NPC's attitude towards PC, am I correct? Will there be any possibilities of fixing the whole situation?
In Gothic II there was this one particular spell that proved very helpful when NPC did not like PC anymore after being assaulted and robbed. But in the end all this was not very logical and a bit too easy for PC... He left his victims almost lifeless on the ground, waited until they tadam! miraculously get up and then use scroll and everything was completely fixed.
I would like to see some NPCs that would be very offended. If PC would like to make them forgive, one should try harder than using spell or stuff like that. In some cases simple "sorry" should suffise, in other - there should be some harder work. In some cases there should be even impossible to fix broken relation with assaulted NPC and such circumstances would have influence way of making some quest or further possibilities of action within the gameworld [like for example: angry/offended NPC does not want to see PC anymore and so PC lose chance of getting some useful intel or must resign/gave up completing some particular task that involve nice relation with this particular NPC"].

Back on-topic: yay, definitely yay to non-lethal combat.
 

Hazelnut

Erudite
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
UK
I like the non-lethal combat concept, as in the Gothics. Does this include different combat 'modes' depending on whether the enemy is trying to kill you or not though? Maybe NNinja's idea could be used if the enemy is trying to kill you? It wouldn't make sense for a non-lethal challenge combat.

I'm not sure I like the idea of having to pay attention to not accidentally kill someone like Claw suggests. Might this lead to metagaming calculations of how to deal enough damage to take someone out without dealing too much and killing them? Even if it didn't, I'm not sure it'd be adding more than a potential irritation to the gameplay. I can't think of an implementation to use as a frame of reference here.
 

PrzeSzkoda

Augur
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
632
Location
Zork - Poland
Project: Eternity
Yay.

Just try to avoid the funny, quirky and powergaming-friendly Gothic loop of getting beaten down, getting up, healing yourself and commencing to beat the dude till he drops for hours on end. Making instant healing not so readily available could do the trick.
 

Prunesquallor

Novice
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
24
Naked Ninja said:
Maybe make it the other way around, instead of having to choose to finish him off, instead make it so you can choose to save him?

Ie, for a certain period of time, he is considered bleeding to death, but the player can staunch his wounds if he chooses? That way you emphasise the players mercy?

It also might make it seem more reasonable when they don't try to kill you after healing. Gothic3 can seem a little silly in that regard, you knock the tar out of someone and 5 minutes later they've practicallg forgotten about it. If you actually go out of your way to save them when they're dying, then it might feel more realistic that they are thankful for the mercy.

Then again, it could amount to the exact same thing. *shrug*

Another good idea! To kill an unconsious opponent is traditionally considered a cowardly thing to do - while chopping him in half while he can still defend himself (the Joff 1981 option) or just leaving him bleeding to death (the Naked Ninja option) has a more wide appeal. Of course, from an utilitarian perspective these actions are probably just about equal and slaying the defenseless has some charming villainous qualities. Never the less I prefer the other two alternatives.
 

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