Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Zorba the Hutt]

Does it call him a 'crackerjack designer'?

 

[J_C]

If I get felipepe correctly, there are unique items with unique backgrounds ...but they don't actually do anything unique, more like a combination of 3 + minor magical effects.

Yeah, there are some in the beta:

These are unique items with unique lore, but those are all enchantments you can create yourself. These items just have more of them. P. banal, especially as a spiritual sequel to the game with best itemization ever.

Is it the item abilities themselves or is it the attribute/skill system that is the problem? I'm not really an item expert so I'm not sure what is the problem here.

Could you give examples of item stats that would not be p.banal?

Compare it to this:

PoE is just: Attribue + 5%, +2 other attribute, +50% another attribute. Baldur's Gate for example: all that PoE has (attribute boost), but additionally it gives immunity to status effects, draining enemy levels, healing the wielder of the weapon with each hit, plus regeneration.

Also, if felipepepe is correct, the additional enhancements these equipments have are not that unique, because you can craft them yourselves. A good unique weapon is unique, because there isn't anything like it in the game.

Granted, the PoE weapons are probably low level weapons, I hope that the high tear unique weapons will be truly unique.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Is it the item abilities themselves or is it the attribute/skill system that is the problem? I'm not really an item expert so I'm not sure what is the problem here.

Could you give examples of item stats that would not be p.banal?

Boots of speed, Algernon's Cloak, ring of wizardry, ring of free action, Ankheg armor. Some examples from first BG.

That Justice sword looks like it's somewhat similar to staff mace and staff spear from BG1 but it's hard to tell because its bonuses description is so messy.

 

[Infinitron]

Are we seriously going to do the "don't link to Kotaku" hipster bullshit? People will think that's a photoshop, J_C.

How To Balance An RPG

 

[felipepepe]

Those items that felipepepe posted don't look that banal to me. They seem pretty typical of the sort of low-tier magical equipment you might find in BG1.

My problem is the lack of unique stuff. As I said, those are things you can enchant yourself, the "unique" items just have more of them. They aren't items that change the way you play, or offer new powers & abilities. BG2 was amazing in this regard, but let's cut some slack and just use some BG1 items (without the expansion):

Spider's Bane -> THACO +2, Free Action

Spear +3, Backbiter -> THACO +3,3 Dam. againts wielder for every successful hit

Two Handed Sword Cursed Berserking +3 -> THACO +3, Wielder goes Berserk

Cloak of the Wolf -> Polymorph into a wolf at will

Cloak of Non-Detection ->Nondetectable by magical means

Helmet of Charm Protection -> Immune to charm, Protects Against Critical Hits

Gauntlets of Ogre Power -> Gives 18/00 Strength

Amulet of Metaspell Influence -> One extra second level mage spell

Ring of Animal Friendship -> Charm Animal

Ring of Free Action -> Immune to anything that effects mobility

Boots of Speed -> Increases movement speed

The joys of giving the Gauntlest of Ogre Power to a Rogue or Mage, of avoiding spiderwebs with free action, of enduring the downsides of the cursed +3 so you can hit some harder creatures... Much more interesting, no?

 

[Tigranes]

You can link it, but I ain't clickin' it

 

[mastroego]

These are unique items with unique lore, but those are all enchantments you can create yourself. These items just have more of them. P. banal, especially as a spiritual sequel to the game with best itemization ever.

This dangerously reminds me of the Elemental: War of Magic disaster.
I used to rant a lot in their forum about the idiocy of the Balance Fixation.
In Master of Magic you used to have all sort of crazy things, like Invisible units that could wreck havoc in ANY army unless you had True Seeing or something equally purposeful.
I would argue that in nowadays "balanced" mechanics an effect like "Invisibility" would maybe grant a penalty to the enemies' Detection Checks or something similarly retarded.

We all know how that played out.
This looks similarly un-fun.
I'm using mild terms, but I really don't see why anyone should bother making a game along these lines.

 

[Infinitron]

Spear +3, Backbiter -> THACO +3,3 Dam. againts wielder for every successful hit

Helmet of Charm Protection -> Immune to charm, Protects Against Critical Hits

Amulet of Metaspell Influence -> One extra second level mage spell

Well, these don't seem like they would be out of place next to the PoE items you posted. The boots, for example, immediately reminded me of this random set of boots you find in the wilderness in BG1: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Boots_of_the_North

 

[FeelTheRads]

In Master of Magic you used to have all sort of crazy things, like Invisible units that could wreck havoc in ANY army unless you had True Seeing or something equally purposeful.

Shit game, I'm sure.

 

[coffeetable]

Are we seriously going to do the "don't link to Kotaku" hipster bullshit? People will think that's a photoshop, J_C.

How To Balance An RPG

i liked this article, but it should of lead with "GUYS WE'RE ONLY JUST STARTING TO BALANCE THE BACKER BETA" in 72pt font

 

[Hormalakh]

My problem is the lack of unique stuff. As I said, those are things you can enchant yourself, the "unique" items just have more of them. They aren't items that change the way you play, or offer new powers & abilities. BG2 was amazing in this regard, but let's cut some slack and just use some BG1 items (without the expansion):

Spider's Bane -> THACO +2, Free Action

Spear +3, Backbiter -> THACO +3,3 Dam. againts wielder for every successful hit

Two Handed Sword Cursed Berserking +3 -> THACO +3, Wielder goes Berserk

Cloak of the Wolf -> Polymorph into a wolf at will

Cloak of Non-Detection ->Nondetectable by magical means

Helmet of Charm Protection -> Immune to charm, Protects Against Critical Hits

Gauntlets of Ogre Power -> Gives 18/00 Strength

Amulet of Metaspell Influence -> One extra second level mage spell

Ring of Animal Friendship -> Charm Animal

Ring of Free Action -> Immune to anything that effects mobility

Boots of Speed -> Increases movement speed

The joys of giving the Gauntlest of Ogre Power to a Rogue or Mage, of avoiding spiderwebs with free action, of enduring the downsides of the cursed +3 so you can hit some harder creatures... Much more interesting, no?

I agree. But I also understand where Josh Sawyer is coming from. Though at the same time, he's advocating two completely different ideas.

The gauntlets of ogre might for example, allow players to dump might for a character and then go and find the gauntlets and make that "dump" stat not really much of a choice. However, this requires metagaming, and in this case Josh Sawyer would say "yes, once they know that the gauntlet exists ,they will metagame and make degeneracy easier."

Same thing with power armor in FO2. I pretty much dumped str and went looking for power armor becuz I knew that was the way to spent my points without worrying about "wasting" them on strength.

However, at the same time, he designs lore in a way that is so metagamable. Who cares what the specifcs of a particular enemy's stats are (unless they're planning on randomizing them)? You can meta-game that. In this regard, Sawyer doesn't care and says "I'm making the game for players who are playing it the first time through and that first time, it will matter to take lore."

 

[Shadenuat]

Anyone figured out the spider-illithid dungeon? I made 2 runes glow and cleaned the place but that's it.
If I won't do something there my barbarian playthrough would remain at level 5 since I did not get XP for ogre or stumbling upon animancer.

 

[Infinitron]

Hormalakh The items that set one of your stats to max are pretty OP and should only be found in the late game, IMO. The others, all of them, I could see in Pillars, though I was very conservative about what I quoted in my reply to felipe.

 

[FeelTheRads]

"I'm making the game for players who are playing it the first time through and that first time, it will matter to take lore."

So, you're saying that he's flip-flopping?

 

[tuluse]

Well, these don't seem like they would be out of place next to the PoE items you posted. The boots, for example, immediately reminded me of this random set of boots you find in the wilderness in BG1: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Boots_of_the_North

There would be no immunity to charm. It would increases defense against charm, so you'd be less likely to be charmed and then have a lower duration, but no hard counters.

 

[Duraframe300]

Are we seriously going to do the "don't link to Kotaku" hipster bullshit? People will think that's a photoshop, J_C.

How To Balance An RPG

i liked this article, but it should of lead with "GUYS WE'RE ONLY JUST STARTING TO BALANCE THE BACKER BETA" in 72pt font

Yeah, I like the article.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, these don't seem like they would be out of place next to the PoE items you posted. The boots, for example, immediately reminded me of this random set of boots you find in the wilderness in BG1: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Boots_of_the_North

There would be no immunity to charm. It would increases defense against charm, so you'd be less likely to be charmed and then have a lower duration, but no hard counters.

Yeah, maybe. I figure charm is just one of many immobilising effects, so an immunity to it wouldn't be a huge deal. But sure, swap that with "Charm Resistance +X".

 

[Frusciante]

Compare it to this:

PoE is just: Attribue + 5%, +2 other attribute, +50% another attribute. Baldur's Gate for example: all that PoE has (attribute boost), but additionally it gives immunity to status effects, draining enemy levels, healing the wielder of the weapon with each hit, plus regeneration.

Also, if felipepepe is correct, the additional enhancements these equipments have are not that unique, because you can craft them yourselves. A good unique weapon is unique, because there isn't anything like it in the game.

Granted, the PoE weapons are probably low level weapons, I hope that the high tear unique weapons will be truly unique.

Ok I get your point but there's no reason PoE cannot also have items like this. Let's see and wait.

I'm also fine with an important role for enchanting btw. If the most powerful items can only be found in the wild then there's no reason to use enchanting. But I agree that some unique items are nice.

 

[felipepepe]

Yup, the hard counters make all the difference. And there's also the unique aspect. You cannot get any of those bonuses from other items of create them yourself. As you said, I could see those happening in PoE considering the ruleset. But considering the man behind it, I doubt it.

Also, Baldur's Gate is one of the rare games that knows how to make cursed weapons interesting. They aren't just "troll items", they are really powerful items with huge downsides.

 

[mastroego]

In Master of Magic you used to have all sort of crazy things, like Invisible units that could wreck havoc in ANY army unless you had True Seeing or something equally purposeful.

Shit game, I'm sure.

Not sure if serious.
MoM was definitely "unbalanced" and is still remembered as one of the funniest games of all times.
The stuff you could do was crazy.

Mark my words: no one is going to remember a Glorified Spreadsheet. Elemental wasl forgotten in a month except for being used as a cautionary tale.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Ok I get your point but there's no reason PoE cannot also have items like this. Let's see and wait.

I'm also fine with an important role for enchanting btw. If the most powerful items can only be found in the wild then there's no reason to use enchanting. But I agree that some unique items are nice.

You can enchant unique items as well I think.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Not sure if serious.

Definitely not.

MoM was definitely "unbalanced" and is still remembered as one of the funniest games of all times.
The stuff you could do was crazy.

But balance, man... that's good because... it's balance... which is better than unbalance because "un" is a negative prefix.

 

[cutterjohn]

sadly, I was far too cheap to opt for ay higher than the physical boxed copy... *sniff*...

OTOH

I've discovered that I'm not much of a beta fan, preferring to wait for the content "complete"/"balanced" release(s).

 

[Abu Antar]

I've been thinking about the attributes after my last run. Resolve and Perception could be dropped and I wouldn't notice a huge difference. Tie the bonuses of those attributes to the others, and be done with it. Having the same amount of attributes as the IE games just because they had it, is not important to me.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

There would be no immunity to charm. It would increases defense against charm, so you'd be less likely to be charmed and then have a lower duration, but no hard counters.

Yep, that's exactly what The Saw™ would say.

That's probably my biggest beef with him, his fixation on "hard counters" and how they're somehow work of the devil. If bashing them wasn't such a huge hobby horse for him I feel he'd be a much, much more palatable designer, much more amenable to fun and interesting designs.