Here are some things that put me off vanilla JA2.

[Grimwulf]

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.

I disagree. 85% of loot is damaged beyond usability. It either needs a lot of repairs (which militia obviously can't do) or it's gonna jam like a bitch. As for retreat, well... They do retreat, mostly when it's only 1-2 guys left. And they are supposed to be loyal soldiers, that are mighty driven by propaganda/fear of Deidranna. Besides, would you escape from 4-6 mercs if you got an army of buddies standing besides you? And lastly, the game is easy enough as it is, no need to make it even more so.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Wow, thanks for telling me about the mines. And I was trying to move around as fast as possible because "the mines will get depleted soon, one is already down and the other ones had been working for much longer". I thought there is a set amount of money you can get from the mine before it gets depleted. Like in Warcraft or Age of Empires. Now it turns out I can just fuck around like in every RPG out there. Don't tell me that patrols are not actually going from Meduna and other uncaputred cities and just spawn in unexplored squares at random.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

OP is retarded.

Your face is retarded.

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...t-sucked-phenomenon.94502/page-9#post-3529200

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.

I disagree. 85% of loot is damaged beyond usability. It either needs a lot of repairs (which militia obviously can't do) or it's gonna jam like a bitch.

If the game was realistic, most of loot would be in usable condition and would be stuff like M-16 rifles, M-60 machine guns, M-79 Grenade Launchers, LAVs, grenades and stuff like that.

 

[Johannes]

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.

I disagree. 85% of loot is damaged beyond usability. It either needs a lot of repairs (which militia obviously can't do) or it's gonna jam like a bitch. As for retreat, well... They do retreat, mostly when it's only 1-2 guys left. And they are supposed to be loyal soldiers, that are mighty driven by propaganda/fear of Deidranna. Besides, would you escape from 4-6 mercs if you got an army of buddies standing besides you? And lastly, the game is easy enough as it is, no need to make it even more so.

What, it wouldn't be easier that way. Right now you're conjuring guns for the militia out of thin air, and enemies retreating when appropriate wouldn't make things easier either - less loot for you, and force preservation for them.

 

[Grimwulf]

Wow, thanks for telling me about the mines. And I was trying to move around as fast as possible because "the mines will get depleted soon, one is already down and the other ones had been working for much longer". I thought there is a set amount of money you can get from the mine before it gets depleted. Like in Warcraft or Age of Empires. Now it turns out I can just fuck around like in every RPG out there. Don't tell me that patrols are not actually going from Meduna and other uncaputred cities and just spawn in unexplored squares at random.

Deidranna patrols go from several locations, including Meduna. They don't spam randomly. You can fuck around as long as you like, but the game becomes a bit boring once you go all passive/defensive.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...t-sucked-phenomenon.94502/page-9#post-3529200

Now that explains a lot.

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.

I disagree. 85% of loot is damaged beyond usability. It either needs a lot of repairs (which militia obviously can't do) or it's gonna jam like a bitch.

If the game was realistic, most of loot would be in usable condition and would be stuff like M-16 rifles, M-60 machine guns, M-79 Grenade Launchers, LAVs, grenades and stuff like that.

Depends on how you look at it. I don't think that Deidranna would provide top equipment for red shirts - they are basically cannon fodder, totally expendable. And elite forces are actually armed pretty good, their stuff tends to be in much better condition. I can't say it breaks my immersion.

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.

I disagree. 85% of loot is damaged beyond usability. It either needs a lot of repairs (which militia obviously can't do) or it's gonna jam like a bitch. As for retreat, well... They do retreat, mostly when it's only 1-2 guys left. And they are supposed to be loyal soldiers, that are mighty driven by propaganda/fear of Deidranna. Besides, would you escape from 4-6 mercs if you got an army of buddies standing besides you? And lastly, the game is easy enough as it is, no need to make it even more so.

What, it wouldn't be easier that way. Right now you're conjuring guns for the militia out of thin air, and enemies retreating when appropriate wouldn't make things easier either - less loot for you, and force preservation for them.

But training militia actually costs money, as well as maintaining. I guess weapon expenses are included. As for "less loot", come on. Starting from midgame and further, you barely pick up anything important from them, except for ammo/meds/tools and other consumables. You buy every piece of equipment at Bobby Ray's. Playing without "enemies drop all" just makes you buy consumables there too, which is kinda lame.

And stop being so picky. If JA2 isn't realistic then tell me what is.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.

I disagree. 85% of loot is damaged beyond usability. It either needs a lot of repairs (which militia obviously can't do) or it's gonna jam like a bitch.

If the game was realistic, most of loot would be in usable condition and would be stuff like M-16 rifles, M-60 machine guns, M-79 Grenade Launchers, LAVs, grenades and stuff like that.

Depends on how you look at it. I don't think that Deidranna would provide top equipment for red shirts - they are basically cannon fodder, totally expendable. And elite forces are actually armed pretty good, their stuff tends to be in much better condition. I can't say it breaks my immersion.

That's not top equipment. That's 30 years old outdated equipment.
Cannon fodder would have worse training and morale and standard equipment. Yeah, maybe it would be in worse condition.

Elites would have better training, high morale and modern tactical stuff and sci-fi stuff like rocket rifles.

And stop being so picky. If JA2 isn't realistic then tell me what is.

JA2 has some systems based on observation of reality. Loot system, equipment progression and militia recruitment system aren't.

 

[Grimwulf]

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.

I disagree. 85% of loot is damaged beyond usability. It either needs a lot of repairs (which militia obviously can't do) or it's gonna jam like a bitch.

If the game was realistic, most of loot would be in usable condition and would be stuff like M-16 rifles, M-60 machine guns, M-79 Grenade Launchers, LAVs, grenades and stuff like that.

Depends on how you look at it. I don't think that Deidranna would provide top equipment for red shirts - they are basically cannon fodder, totally expendable. And elite forces are actually armed pretty good, their stuff tends to be in much better condition. I can't say it breaks my immersion.

That's not top equipment. That's 30 years old outdated equipment.
Cannon fodder would have worse training and morale and standard equipment. Yeah, maybe it would be in worse condition.

Elites would have better training, high morale and modern tactical stuff and sci-fi stuff like rocket rifles.

But that's Arulco - some country on the end of the world than nobody gives a fuck about. Deidranna only needed military to pwn the rebels and keep the population under control. You don't even need that much firearms to do that. I mean, it's not like Arulco's at war or smth. Why bother with top notch equipment when she needs a bigger mansion?

JA2 has some systems based on observation of reality. Loot system, equipment progression and militia recruitment system aren't.

Fine, let's leave unrealistic militia alone. It never played an important role in gameplay anyway, it's just there for flavor. But what's wrong with loot and item progression?

So yeah, vanilla inventory system can't possibly compare with 1.13, but it was still way better than in most other games. JA2 didn't let you just pick up whatever you want and run like a madman with botomless and weightless backpacks. And looting in 1.13 is nothing but flawless - that's EXACTLY how it's supposed to be implemented in realistic games.

As for item progression - once again, it's customizable. And speaking vanilla, I can't even remember what it was like. But I definitely didn't feel like smth was wrong with it.

 

[Shadenuat]

Just had enemies throw light sticks at my smartass full night goggles party and destroy a few mercs with sniper fire.
My mind is blown. Why can't other squad based RPGs be like this.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

But that's Arulco - some country on the end of the world than nobody gives a fuck about. Deidranna only needed military to pwn the rebels and keep the population under control. You don't even need that much firearms to do that. I mean, it's not like Arulco's at war or smth. Why bother with top notch equipment when she needs a bigger mansion?

Because Arulco overspends on military and engages in bullying neighbouring tiny countries. It's a regional power. Also, wacky high-tech shit like rocket rifles is already in game.
And by overspending I mean ruthless exploitation of the population working in gold/silver mines and absent public services including education, welfare, health care, etc..
She doesn't need to cut down military expenses to get as big mansion as she wants and to provide live in luxury for her buddies.

Also, again outdated US stuff isn't top notch equipment. Check out this, there's a lot of poor countries using M16:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#Users
Wouldn't be surprised if the weapons were dumped there for free by US after Deidranna declaring herself an anti-communist.
After all she has kiddies working in factories instead of going to schools.

Her army also has at least 1 M-48 tank platoon and a few F-4 Phantom II jets. Both are also Vietnam-era US hardware. They also have some new hardware like HMMWVs.

But what's wrong with loot and item progression?

It's like in for example in Baldur's Gate you wouldn't be able to buy bows, crossbows, spears, swords and armour, but only slings, darts and daggers. It's stupid. It's very artificial and unrealistic progression.

So yeah, vanilla inventory system can't possibly compare with 1.13, but it was still way better than in most other games. JA2 didn't let you just pick up whatever you want and run like a madman with botomless and weightless backpacks. And looting in 1.13 is nothing but flawless - that's EXACTLY how it's supposed to be implemented in realistic games.

As for item progression - once again, it's customizable. And speaking vanilla, I can't even remember what it was like. But I definitely didn't feel like smth was wrong with it.

The thread is about vanilla JA2 as a classic-bashing thread, not a thread about fan-made content.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Awor Szurkrarz
It's makes even less sense because you are not just getting weapons from looting but you are getting them from an agency that employes top-notch military personel and international gun-smugglers. So it would be like starting a DnD campaing in the middle of the Baldur's Gate with 2 to 10 level characters and being able to only get daggers and slings. It would be OK if the game was a standard RPG, where you create a party of rebel fighters who go around Arulco and capture cities, but it's ridiculous for AIM to send expensive employees with hunting riffles at best.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Awor Szurkrarz
It's makes even less sense because you are not just getting weapons from looting but you are getting them from an agency that employes top-notch military personel and international gun-smugglers. So it would be like starting a DnD campaing in the middle of the Baldur's Gate with 2 to 10 level characters and being able to only get daggers and slings. It would be OK if the game was a standard RPG, where you create a party of rebel fighters who go around Arulco and capture cities, but it's ridiculous for AIM to send expensive employees with hunting riffles at best.

Actually, rebel fighters are already on external funding. Anyway, since most probably personal possession of firearms is banned, caches of AKs and RPGs smuggled from abroad would be most probable equipment for rebels.

 

[The_scorpion]

Dumping my post from the other thread for maximum attention:

Well, there are some things I hate about JA, the combat system is top-notch but I have a gripe with other things
-There is a shitload of mercenaries but most will not be seen. Since the beginning you have money to hire top-notch mercs (or at least one) so there is no reason to bother with them on your first playthrough. Which means most of the NPCs (who also consumed a lot of budget because of voice acting and shit) won't be seen by most players. I mean they made you work your way up from using shitty guns despite it making no fucking sesne, why no do this with mercenaries.
-Cities (which most players will see) are populated by a bunch of generics and 2-3 unique NPCs. Makes them feel a bit dull
-I think it may be because I play the game wrong but cities are underused. Instead of being entrenched in ambush-zones or something enemies just run to you after hearing one of them getting shot and will be killed one after another. Often reducing capturing a sector to sniping everyone from one spot
-Most enemies are just people with guns, replaced by people with better guns and better guns etc. Makes fighting them dull (not that the combat is dull by itself, but it's boring to see the same enemy over and over again). I mean sure it's a realistic game so they won't just throw hobgoblins with fireballs at you, but most realistic combat games are bigger in scale. There is artillery, mechanised infantry, heavy machine gunners, grenadiers, choppers medics, tanks (ok there are a few tanks, but only few), jeeps and shit. Here there are just people who will sometime use a grenade or a LAW.
-Managing your mercenaries is a pain in the ass. They will have less stamina if they are tired but won't go to sleep if they are not tired, synchronising them is pointlessly tedious. Can't they just get some pills or shit?
-Also. Not enough unique encounters and quests. Fighting bug queen and Mike was great. Everything in between? Not really.

I like it after seeing another bunch of dudes I often though "I wish I was playing Incubation".

You should really try out 1.13 in expert and iron man. Every encounter will feel unique. You'll never get bored.

No, fights'll still be humans with guns all the way, even if there's more grenade launchers and the like involved. The game really suffers from not having more varied encounters where different approaches would be forced. JA2 combat is satisfying but does get old relatively fast due to the sameyness of it all.

I don't really get why you specifically mention fighting Mike btw, Gangrelrumbler - he's just another random guy in every way beyond having that small convo.

for somebody who doesn't play Ja2 too often, but has played JA1/DG, the Mike encounter is special. Game designers can't expect their games to get played for 15 years a gazillion of times.

For some mods, I added different enemy types. But it is hard to keep that balanced and playable. I alters the gameplay a lot so it's a ambiguous thing to do. I also played around with playable bloodcats, crepitus and the like. While it is fun, it offers less than what you can with normal mercs. The range of tactical options is very broad with normal human mercs.

starting with bad euipment is classical RPG design. Your IMP doesn't start at level 9 either.

 

[Johannes]

for somebody who doesn't play Ja2 too often, but has played JA1/DG, the Mike encounter is special. Game designers can't expect their games to get played for 15 years a gazillion of times.

I fit that description but no, it wasn't special at all. It was really underwhelming exactly because you'd expect it to be something special.

starting with bad euipment is classical RPG design. Your IMP doesn't start at level 9 either.

Being classical design doesn't mean it's the best way to go.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

starting with bad euipment is classical RPG design. Your IMP doesn't start at level 9 either.

I already addressed that part.

 

[The_scorpion]

starting with bad euipment is classical RPG design. Your IMP doesn't start at level 9 either.

Being classical design doesn't mean it's the best way to go.

Most mods change that, too. Personally, i treated sidearms as backup-weapons only. My Mercs would generally start with at least a submachine gun (well, in my later mods). But that's very much a question of taste. A lot of people actually like the early game of short range pistol gameplay.

of course the Ja2 devs could have gone for a different weapon progression approach to reflect the modern, non-Magic setting, but considering their RPG Background, they went for commonly used Systems pf loot and character progression.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

starting with bad euipment is classical RPG design. Your IMP doesn't start at level 9 either.

Being classical design doesn't mean it's the best way to go.

Most mods change that, too. Personally, i treated sidearms as backup-weapons only. My Mercs would generally start with at least a submachine gun (well, in my later mods). But that's very much a question of taste. A lot of people actually like the early game of short range pistol gameplay.

of course the Ja2 devs could have gone for a different weapon progression approach to reflect the modern, non-Magic setting, but considering their RPG Background, they went for commonly used Systems pf loot and character progression.

It's not classical, though. From my experience in cRPGs it's moving from non-magical versions of normal weapons (which include stuff like two handed swords, halberds, spears and longbows) to magical ones.
In JA2 terms it would be starting out with with basic stuff like the armament I proposed for the Arulco army or basic soviet armament - AKMs, RPKs, PKM, RPG-7, etc. and progressing to modern tactical stuff with armour, ACOGs, night vision, etc.

 

[Grimwulf]

The thread is about vanilla JA2 as a classic-bashing thread, not a thread about fan-made content.

Then I should probably give up arguing, coz I can't remember vanilla at all. Mah memory fails me far too often.

But explain me one thing, why does everybody complain about poorly equipped merc "professionals"? There are a lot of cheap and barely equipped mercs in the game, yes, and there is also a decent amount of expensive vets with good stuff. You r just a guy with 30k, you can't possibly expect to hire an army on those assets!

And read the terms on AIM page, the 8.1 and 8.2 thing. Merc is free to pre-choose his equipment and you are free to buy it or not. Several things come out of it:
1. If he chooses top notch stuff, nobody would probably buy it for him and either send on the mission "as is" or won't employ him at all.
2. He can't bring his personal firearms with him. Because anything he owns when arriving on the mission becomes the property of employer.
3. The best thing to do is choose something cheap, but stuff you will be comfortable with. That way you'll have a nice price for potential employers and at least be provided with shit you're used to.

Those who have money just employ Gus, Reaper, Magic, Shadow or whatever - they are very well equipped (I believe that was the case in vanilla too). And you can also buy equipment at Bobby Rays, coz AIM doesn't sell guns. It sells mercs.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Grimwulf
That's the problem. BR has absolutely no decent weapons available at the beginning, which means that a professional like the laptop guy has problems getting bloody AK47 to the South America, something even common criminals have no troubles doing. Secondly, these weapons that would make hiring mercs too expensive are shit like Ruger mini, which costs 100$ more than shitty sub-machine guns you usually start with. In fact a common advice for players starting vanilla JA2 is to get Lynx and just Lynx (plus your IMP merc) because he shoots well and hiring him is a quick way to get your hands on a riffle. Forcing players to do something like that to get to decent weapons is insane. Also, yeah the top mercs have normal weapons, but there is no reason for other to have so low-grade weaponry, especially since price is not an issue. For example. One of the cheapest mercs is Steroid. He's a decent shot (89) but starts with a Barracuda pistol, which is totally useless. Hiring this guy for a week with equipment (which is what most people will do) costs around $6110 . Is adding extra 700$ to make get him from being an useless starting merc (to start with at least) to halfway decent that costly? And no, you can't hire him without equipment and buy weapons later because the only gun-smugglers you know have troubles getting anything other than pistols at the start, more than that their website doesn't work.

 

[Grimwulf]

Grimwulf
That's the problem. BR has absolutely no decent weapons available at the beginning, which means that a professional like the laptop guy has problems getting bloody AK47 to the South America, something even common criminals have no troubles doing. Secondly, these weapons that would make hiring mercs too expensive are shit like Ruger mini, which costs 100$ more than shitty sub-machine guns you usually start with. In fact a common advice for players starting vanilla JA2 is to get Lynx and just Lynx (plus your IMP merc) because he shoots well and hiring him is a quick way to get your hands on a riffle. Forcing players to do something like that to get to decent weapons is insane. Also, yeah the top mercs have normal weapons, but there is no reason for other to have so low-grade weaponry, especially since price is not an issue. For example. One of the cheapest mercs is Steroid. He's a decent shot (89) but starts with a Barracuda pistol, which is totally useless. Hiring this guy for a week with equipment (which is what most people will do) costs around $6110 . Is adding extra 700$ to make get him from being an useless starting merc (to start with at least) to halfway decent that costly? And no, you can't hire him without equipment and buy weapons later because the only gun-smugglers you know have troubles getting anything other than pistols at the start, more than that their website doesn't work.

Robert Gontarsky is... UNAVOIDABLE at the moment. Always makes me laugh
Maybe you got a point. Once again, I can't remember Vanilla very good, but it felt really ahead of the time back in the day. I guess I enjoyed it so much that didn't notice the flaws in overall atmosphere.

 

[laclongquan]

You are complaining about mercenaries con clients out of more money if he doesnt pay attention to the fine print? :smirk:

 

[Severian Silk]

What the fuck, who put it in strategy gaming? Just because a cRPG has decent systems, it doesn't mean it's a strategy game.

Should ID1 be counted as a strategy game because there isn't a protagonist whose death ends the game?

Should RPG manuals with detailed tables of henchmen and hirelings count as strategy games instead?

I believe the argument here is "laptop guy has no stats".

I thought the IMP *is* the laptop guy.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

What the fuck, who put it in strategy gaming? Just because a cRPG has decent systems, it doesn't mean it's a strategy game.

Should ID1 be counted as a strategy game because there isn't a protagonist whose death ends the game?

Should RPG manuals with detailed tables of henchmen and hirelings count as strategy games instead?

I believe the argument here is "laptop guy has no stats".

I thought the IMP *is* the laptop guy.

Then why does the game continue after he dies? How are you able to manage shit when he's sleeping/disabled? Who the hell is the IMP guy anyway?

 

[hoverdog]

so it begins.

 

[Grimwulf]

What the fuck, who put it in strategy gaming? Just because a cRPG has decent systems, it doesn't mean it's a strategy game.

Should ID1 be counted as a strategy game because there isn't a protagonist whose death ends the game?

Should RPG manuals with detailed tables of henchmen and hirelings count as strategy games instead?

I believe the argument here is "laptop guy has no stats".

I thought the IMP *is* the laptop guy.

Nah, he's actually expendable. If he survives to the end, he actually directly adresses the laptop guy, thanking him for leadership and confessing that this was his first mission.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

But explain me one thing, why does everybody complain about poorly equipped merc "professionals"? There are a lot of cheap and barely equipped mercs in the game, yes, and there is also a decent amount of expensive vets with good stuff. You r just a guy with 30k, you can't possibly expect to hire an army on those assets!

IRL a basic AK or a basic M16 costs about the same as a pistol. With 30k it would be easy to afford to kit-out low class mercs with with proper military weapons.