Wasteland The writing/story/choices seems...awful so far - SPOILERS

[aron searle]

So started playing this.

Cleared the AG center, kind of OK story direction so far. Saving either AG or High-tower, few dialogues here and there afterwards about the choices and consequences !, but some of the characters seemed somewhat comical. Old dude obsessing about melons, bioware evil guy that shoots us and then blows up, giant attack rabbits, recycled character avatars.

But OK, ill roll with this, slightly B movie flavour, and some stuff can be forgiven for an 'indi' game, whatever that is.

Then I do the railway camp, oh god.

Save the boy from drowning. Oh yea, you can't push over any other objects in the game, most of the world is non interactable. You don't seem to have any obvious sensible choices, throw rope, people chain, swim yourself. No, you are supposed to push over some pillars so he can escape. Hmmmmmm, maybe it is me, but seeing as how so much of the world is no more than a 3d drawing, this seems somewhat unintuitive and odd.

Walk about, most of the place and people are just furniture, even bethsuda manages to make a world that feels more 'alive', GAH!

Kill the rail raiders or whatever they are called (fill in baddies, who cares). So try to negotiate peace, have not invested any points into talking skills, run back and forth half a dozen times (yawn, fast travel is a fix to such bad design, but better a lame fast travel mechanic than this rubbish). No diplomatic options, they kill the Atkinsons.

My bad I think, I haven't got any skills in diplomacy. I mean this obviously isn't a game where you can approach problems using a variety of skills, if you have guns, all you can do is shoot? So I google the way to get a peacefull solution, you *TYPE IN* both, triggering new options, I can't tell if this is a cheat, or how you are supposed to do it, either way, bad bad bad.

So the peaceful option, gay ass fan-fiction quality speech about banging in a spike symbolically, guy cuts of his arm, LOL, this is fucking awful. Thats it, peace, they walk away? No reward it seems, other than the warm fuzzy feeling of negoiating peace between these cartoon characters.

Go to talk to chisel or whatever his name is, back in the tent, he has his arm again, go go radiation healing powers.



Does the story and quality of writing get better, this is just horribly bad, can you achieve goals by different means, or is it simply *Skill 1 = Quest solution 1 = END*

 

[Volourn]

The writing is very good. You seem to whine because you are a Betehsda fanboy who doesn't know good writing when you see it.

 

[Cazzeris]

I finished that quest today and liked it, don't see where's the big problem (aside from the "arms" bug which is already fixed internally). I mean, you could reach the peace by a couple of ways (using Manipulation or disarming the bicycle's bomb using Demolitions skill), and also kill everyone, steal the spike by destroying the generator using Disarming Alarms & Lockpicking...; seriously, which was the last RPG where killing everyone was a valid choice? And then the game reminds you that you're a peacemaker if you finish the quest peacefully, nice reactivity right there.

Don't know why you think the quest/writing is crap, I found it decent (and loved some jokes and environmental descriptions); but kinda agree with you when you say that the area design is lame. I hope it gets improved on LA.

PS: I had no idea related to that secret keyword, since I finished that quest peacefully with my ranger's diplomatic skills.

 

[aron searle]

I did disarm the bomb, not sure what difference that made.

I knew you could steal the spike, and I had those skills, couldn't see how logically that would create peace talks, so just though, nope.

Don't know why you think the quest/writing is crap

Ok, it's just not good. So many cliche one liners, bashing the spike symbolically, everyone standing around going "wahey", really?

"now I shall chop off my arm, HRNNNNNG, now I bash this spike symbolically whilst I go into shock and haemorrhage to death", well, now I am off for tea and supper and to grow my arm back.

Some of the other writing is OK, random NPC's telling general back-stories, but the stories are pretty forgettable, the characters as well, in fact I can't remember any of them other than as "science woman 1".

 

[Cazzeris]

I did disarm the bomb, not sure what difference that made.

That lets you tell Casey that his daughter Jessie nearly died with one of his bombs, so he realises that the war has to stop as soon as possible.

I knew you could steal the spike, and I had those skills, couldn't see how logically that would create peace talks, so just though, nope.

I was just pointing different ways to solve the quest if you aren't skilled enough to go with diplomacy, sorry if you thought otherwise.

Don't know why you think the quest/writing is crap

Ok, it's just not good. So many cliche one liners, bashing the spike symbolically, everyone standing around going "wahey", really?

"now I shall chop off my arm, HRNNNNNG, now I bash this spike symbolically whilst I go into shock and haemorrhage to death", well, now I am off for tea and supper and to grow my arm back.

Some of the other writing is OK, random NPC's telling general back-stories, but the stories are pretty forgettable, the characters as well, in fact I can't remember any of them other than as "science woman 1".

Yeah, if I were inXile's lead writer I'd learn from WL2 and would try to spend more writing effort on dialogues and less on descriptions (there are way too many). But I sill liked lots of the details like the radio transmissions, some ranger's stories, the Scothmo's quotes, Angela Deth's comments...

The game's overall writing goes from meh to very good in my opinion.

 

[sser]

My question is, did you find the tortoise

 

[Rhalle]

The writing is very good. You seem to whine because you are a Betehsda fanboy who doesn't know good writing when you see it.

Some of it is good.

A whole lot of it is done in the poor taste of immaturity and is cringeworthy, by someone or someones who has neither read nor written very much before.

Aron Searle's instincts are healthy.

The game rides the line between self-conscious schlock and unintentional schlock. Obviously there were many people writing the game, and a few of them were talented enough to pull it off. Others were not. I like how Angel Oracle is itself a sort of commentary on immature speech and superfluous profanity. The Mannerites politeness is ultimately a metaphor for the sort of maturity of taste the author of that portion possesses in juxtaposition to a lot of the rest of the writing you will find in the game.

 

[Mareus]

Save the boy from drowning. Oh yea, you can't push over any other objects in the game, most of the world is non interactable. You don't seem to have any obvious sensible choices, throw rope, people chain, swim yourself. No, you are supposed to push over some pillars so he can escape. Hmmmmmm, maybe it is me, but seeing as how so much of the world is no more than a 3d drawing, this seems somewhat unintuitive and odd.

If you read the description you would notice that swimming is not an option due to water being more like quicksand. There is no rope item in the game as far as I have noticed, so you have to improvise with what you have. Not having people chain option could be said about many games with similar quests. With that out of the way you have 5 alternatives:
1. Use brute force to push one of the totems down (seems pretty logical to me).
2. Use shovel to make one of the totems fall (that is what I tried first, even though I had Angela Deth with me).
3. Use explosives to make one of the totems fall (haven't tried it, but I heard it works).
4. Let the boy drown, and then kill the witness so that the city can't hear the bad news about how you let the kid die.
5. Just let the boy drown.

Walk about, most of the place and people are just furniture, even bethsuda manages to make a world that feels more 'alive', GAH!

1. You are over exaggerating. There are plenty of unique characters that will not only give you quests, but which you can influence for reputation, etc.
2. This same design is found in many RPGCodex favorite titles like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, etc.
3. You really think that Bethesda manages to make the world feel more alive with characters that have 10 times less dialogue options, horrible voice acting, illogical writing like "Have you seen my old man - a middle aged guy?", not noticing you throwing their items around, putting a metal pot over their head and then then stealing everything in front of them, every guard being an adventurer who got shot in the knee, etc???... ... .... BURN THE HERETIC!! BUUUUURN!!

Kill the rail raiders or whatever they are called (fill in baddies, who cares). So try to negotiate peace, have not invested any points into talking skills, run back and forth half a dozen times (yawn, fast travel is a fix to such bad design, but better a lame fast travel mechanic than this rubbish). No diplomatic options, they kill the Atkinsons.

Walking back and forth I can agree with. They should just add a shortcut or a secret passage or something, so that you don' have to waste 20 minutes just running back and forth. However, you not investing skills in speech is your problem. Deal with the consequences of your choices. That is a big plus for the game, not minus. Furthermore, you have a plethora of options again:
1. Side with one of the two factions.
2. Kill both factions.
3. Use speech skills to negotiate peace.
4. There is also no speech skill requirements IF you 1. Save Ralphy 2. Disarm bike bomb 3. Recruit ralphy, bring him to his girlfriend by the playground bike, 4. Goto Kekkahbah and talk about peace 5. goto Casey and interogate him about bombs until you get to tell him you saved his daughter (Ralphy's girl) from a bomb and he will do anything for you. Then just choose peace 6. Return to Kekkahbah and inform him of peace deal and he will accept with no speech requirement.
5. I haven't tried this, but apparently when talking to Casey, the player can use the hidden keyword "Both", and end the conflict peacefully. When the player takes back Casey's offer to Kekkabah, the Chief will agree to make peace if Casey agrees to sever his arm. Casey will agree to this and the conflict will end peacefully.

Its more then enough options, methinks.

you *TYPE IN* both, triggering new options, I can't tell if this is a cheat, or how you are supposed to do it, either way, bad bad bad.

Its not a cheat. I can't remember exactly, but I think the option even appeared in my dialogue options, but for some reason it did not work. Perhaps it has to do with my characters having low charisma. Can someone verify this?

So the peaceful option, gay ass fan-fiction quality speech about banging in a spike symbolically, guy cuts of his arm, LOL, this is fucking awful. Thats it, peace, they walk away? No reward it seems, other than the warm fuzzy feeling of negoiating peace between these cartoon characters.

I think writing is pretty good, especially in comparison to triple A titles today. I still haven't finished the game, but I heard that you will meet people you helped in the game later on again in the final battle. Can anyone verify if this is true?

Go to talk to chisel or whatever his name is, back in the tent, he has his arm again, go go radiation healing powers.

Bug... THIS GAME SUCKS!!!!

 

[aron searle]

The writing in the rail camp is just shit, it’s childish poorly written shit. If people had agreed, but said that it gets better, fine, instead I am supposed to see shit writing as good, nope.


The writing for the AG centre was better, but fairly generic and forgettable.

1. Use brute force to push one of the totems down (seems pretty logical to me).

2. Use shovel to make one of the totems fall (that is what I tried first, even though I had Angela Deth with me).

3. Use explosives to make one of the totems fall (haven't tried it, but I heard it works).

4. Let the boy drown, and then kill the witness so that the city can't hear the bad news about how you let the kid die.

5. Just let the boy drown.

4. is interesting, and an example of good quest design (choices and concequences TM).


The others are stupid, pushing over a totem, compared to any of the other multitude of real world solutions to such a problem is daft (ropes, people chain, branch/plank, some flotation device). Pushing over a pillar, (why does this pillar, that isn’t as thick as the water the man is drowning in float?). And it is obtuse, this is not a game where the scenery is often able to be manipulated.


There is no way that you can explain this, where it doesn’t look daft.

1. You are over exaggerating. There are plenty of unique characters that will not only give you quests, but which you can influence for reputation, etc.

2. This same design is found in many RPGCodex favorite titles like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, etc.

3. You really think that Bethesda......

1. Maybe, I have only started, most of the areas have a handful of people, most of which may as well be mannequins.

2. 10+ year old games, K thanx.

3. Is shit, yes.

However, you not investing skills in speech is your problem. Deal with the consequences of your choices.

Skills should influence how you solve a problem, not whether you can solve it, if you wish to disagree, then let’s just agree to not agree.

4. There is also no speech skill requirements IF you 1. Save Ralphy 2. Disarm bike bomb 3. Recruit ralphy, bring him to his girlfriend by the playground bike, 4. Goto Kekkahbah and talk about peace 5. goto Casey and interogate him about bombs until you get to tell him you saved his daughter (Ralphy's girl) from a bomb and he will do anything for you. Then just choose peace 6. Return to Kekkahbah and inform him of peace deal and he will accept with no speech requirement.

Did all that, they refused peace over fighting for a golden spike, must be a bug, how encouraging.

 

[Disgruntled]

I thought the writing was ok. Most of it was logical so its hard to criticize on that sense. I would have like to read more captivating stuff but many that you meet are random fallout survivors who dont have much going on their lives.
The consistent slant towards satire, or humour I guess? It was a bit hit and miss. It made me look at the world OOC rather than pulling me in towards contemplating what was going on in-game.

 

[Zetor]

Writing in WL2 is mostly mediocre with some decent-to-good parts. If I had to use a single word to describe it, I'd use "inconsistent". That said, it still works due to the extreme campiness of the setting itself.

 

[Volourn]

"Skills should influence how you solve a problem, not whether you can solve it, if you wish to disagree, then let’s just agree to not agree."

You are insane.

 

[Mareus]

The others are stupid, pushing over a totem, compared to any of the other multitude of real world solutions to such a problem is daft (ropes, people chain, branch/plank, some flotation device). Pushing over a pillar, (why does this pillar, that isn’t as thick as the water the man is drowning in float?). And it is obtuse, this is not a game where the scenery is often able to be manipulated.

Look, I am all for having more options. I just think you are not being realistic at this point. If you can find me one game which has good combat, is dialogue heavy, has a fair amount of choices and consequences and does not suffer from the same problem you are complaining about here, I will admit you have a point. I have been playing games since I was 4 years old, and let me tell you that I just cant remember any game that would be like that. I mean even Fallout which I absolutely worship has Sulik attacking you automatically without you having the logical option to explain him that you just wanted to join the slavers so you could rescue every single slave in Den. Same could be said for some amazing adventure games where item usage is the core game play element. And again, if you had a branch as an item in the game, or rope, or some floating device I would agree with you that its stupid to not be able to use it. However, you do not have anything like that in your inventory and therefore you have to improvise with what you have.

2. 10+ year old games, K thanx.

Why is the age of games important? I mean, the best RPGs ever made are all 10+ years old, and I also think its logical to compare games that have similar design. Now, I could be comparing how NPCs are done in newer games like Skyrim or Fallout 3, but I seriously think that Bethesda fails so hard when it comes to NPC design that its like comparing mods with work done by professionals. Haven't played New Vegas yet, but that is because I don't want to go through months of modding to make the game playable. I could be comparing the NPC design with games like Dragon Age Origins, but again, I really don't think its a fair comparison with how simplistic Dragon Age dialogues are due to the restrictions of voice acting. The same can be said about Mass Effect, and some other pseudo RPGs.

Skills should influence how you solve a problem, not whether you can solve it, if you wish to disagree, then let’s just agree to not agree.

I agree partly, but what I find surprising is why do you think this is not the case when you talk about this specific problam in Nomad camp. Namely all you get with investing in speech skills is additional options HOW YOU CAN SOLVE A NOMAD CAMP PROBLEM. Now perhaps you are not satisfied with a particular solution, but I dont see this as bad design. I certainly dont think that you should be able to do everything without having some specific skills. For example I dont think you should be able to fix a well if you don't have a repair skill, etc.

 

[RK47]

I see you hate losing.
Gun diplomacy has the most checks in game.
Think about it. How many shots do you fire per battle?
Therefore: invest in gun diplomacy.
Win the game.

 

[Kz3r0]

So I google the way to get a peacefull solution, you *TYPE IN* both, triggering new options, I can't tell if this is a cheat, or how you are supposed to do it, either way, bad bad bad.

That's the best, by the way, if you didn't played the first Wateland or didn't liked it why you played thie successor?

 

[Darth Roxor]

The Rail Nomads camp is a terrible, terrible place, mostly because of how fuckhueg it is despite having barely any fucking content, and forcing you to run back and forth through those empty areas all the fucking time.

 

[DosBuster]

I find it even funnier considering how Brian Fargo designed Rail Nomads.

 

[aron searle]

Look, I am all for having more options. I just think you are not being realistic at this point. If you can find me one game which has good combat, is dialogue heavy, has a fair amount of choices and consequences and does not suffer from the same problem you are complaining about here, I will admit you have a point.

I am going to judge it on its own merits, not upon your criteria.

However, you do not have anything like that in your inventory and therefore you have to improvise with what you have.

You are really stretching the logic to make the quest solution seem less inane.

Why is the age of games important?

Because engines and resources are greater than they were 10+ years ago. Creating large areas, that have little to no content, with tiny mostly non interactive populations, is simply bad design for a game of this size and budget.

If you don't have the budget to populate large areas, don't fucking make them.

I agree partly, but what I find surprising is why do you think this is not the case when you talk about this specific problam in Nomad camp. Namely all you get with investing in speech skills is additional options HOW YOU CAN SOLVE A NOMAD CAMP PROBLEM. Now perhaps you are not satisfied with a particular solution, but I dont see this as bad design. I certainly dont think that you should be able to do everything without having some specific skills. For example I dont think you should be able to fix a well if you don't have a repair skill, etc.

Without speech skills, you need to follow a very defined path to solve the problem (the steps you described, which I did, but did not work), there are few branches to the path.


It is a very simplistic quest, Skill x = solution X, no real depth, no multiple ways of solving it using a variety of skills and approaches, just Skill X = Solution X.


May as well just provide the option to pick skills, and have the game go on auto pilot.

 

[Mareus]

I am going to judge it on its own merits, not upon your criteria.

Knock yourself out, but when you expect a crowd funded game to meet the criteria that no other game has ever achieved before, your criteria becomes objectively irrational and unrealistic. Just saying.

You are really stretching the logic to make the quest solution seem less inane.

There is nothing inane about the 4 different quest solutions, especially in comparison to your inane ideas where you want to use items that dont even exist in the game. Every single game in existence is limited in the number of solutions and items. I mean, if I was to follow your logic I could argue how choices in Fallout are horrible due to not having an option to cut open the slave pens with wire cutter item (which btw does not exist in Fallout). Why does that item not exist in Fallout universe? Or why don't I have an option to dig a hole under the slave pen with my shovel and free all the slaves that way? Why cant I take out gun powder from my bullets to make explosives and blast the slave pens wide open? Why does Sulik attack me when I join the slavers with an intent to infiltrate their hideout and gain more information? Why can't I explain him that my plan is to free all the slaves?

GHAAAAAGH!! FALLOUT SUCKS ASS!!!

Because engines and resources are greater than they were 10+ years ago. Creating large areas, that have little to no content, with tiny mostly non interactive populations, is simply bad design for a game of this size and budget.

Wow.. I don't know which game you played, but saying that areas have little to no content is just not true. Also the budget for this game for this day and age is extremely small. Just for comparison there are games today that cost 500 million dollars to make. As for engine and resources being greater then what they were 10 years ago, I agree, but you completely miss the point. I think that the very fact we are comparing W2 with 10+ years old games is a good thing, not a bad thing. New games up to this point sucked most of the times, and there was a severe lack of real RPGs. So when you complain how I am comparing a new game with 10+ year old games, you seem to think that this is somehow a problem for W2, when in fact it is a huge plus.

The rest of your post was of equal shit quality, so I refuse to waste more time on it. Its not like you actually made any valid points.

 

[Volourn]

"It is a very simplistic quest, Skill x = solution X, no real depth, no multiple ways of solving it using a variety of skills and approaches, just Skill X = Solution X."

So much full of shit. Simplistic quest? Comapred to what? It's one of the better RPG quests out there. Top 100 for sure. But, hey, go back to enjoying your fetch quests. R00fles!

You have choices, limitations based on skills, player involvement, violenet and non violent solutions. WIN.

\

 

[Lord Andre]

Unfortunately, the usual story for most areas is "choose between retard group 1 with a twist or retard group 2 with a more predictable twist". The Rail Nomads camp in particular should be genocided on general principle since the plot boils down to "2 groups of inbred redneck indians have driven themselves into poverty for over a decade because "feels". Also the one bit of mystery that could have been expanded into some interesting detective work (what actually triggered the train wreck) is glossed over. Same with the dead librarian thing. I thought the names in the ledgers were gonna' turn out to be a list of potential suspects but it's a place to shoe horn in the names of some retards no one cares about.

The drowning boy thing is a perfect example of the limitation of script based quests. Instead of implementing interactions with the environment that are available and usable all the time (object oriented), you implement 20 flavors of trigger activators that are useless without ... triggers.

The perfect analogy is climbing in Gothic 1&2 (free) vs Risen 2&3(script/trigger based).

The game is still excellent as Inxile's first ambitious attempt at a badass RPG with limited budget, but eventually this excuse won't fly anymore and by then they better learn to implement some emergent gameplay if they want to stay relevant.

Seriously, the quest implementation is RPGMaker quality. This is 2014, you have a decently flexible 3d engine, you have a dozen flavors of programming languages to plug in and tie the skills directly into the engine and create a decent interactive game world. I'm not saying Inxile should have taken this road with Wasteland 2, not even Torment, but there will come a time when they can take a chance and raise the bar and at that time I hope they don't chicken out.

 

[RK47]

I acknowledge the agenda of the above poster and urge others to do the same.

 

[aron searle]

but when you expect a crowd funded game to meet the criteria that no other game has ever achieved before

Not sure why crowd funding is relevant, given the budget, or regardless?


I am also not sure what criteria you think I have, and why you think my criteria is unrealistic.


Poor writing is inexcusable, and there is no way you can describe the writing and characterisation of the rail camp as good, it is poor for a number of reasons.

There is nothing inane about the 4 different quest solutions, especially in comparison to your inane ideas where you want to use items that dont even exist in the game.

Pushing a stone pillar to save a drowning man is an inane obtuse solution, you don’t solve it by logic, you solve it by pixel clicking, it is the pinnacle of bad quest design. If you can’t come up with less retarded solutions, come up with a different quest that allows the use of existing resources.


It is the same problem with creating peace between the two factions, unless you have X skill to achieve X solution, you simply have to go through and click on every possible intractable character or object to unlock a certain path. I just don’t find that kind of quest design acceptable in 2014, and don’t give me crap about resources, that is not the issue.

Fallout / why don't I have an option to dig a hole under the slave pen with my shovel and free all the slaves that way? Why cant I take out gun powder from my bullets to make explosives and blast the slave pens wide open?


GHAAAAAGH!! FALLOUT SUCKS ASS!!!

No, your arguments suck ass.


Whilst you cannot do a number of logical things as you describe, the options available to you are still logical, and make sensible use of skills and game resources, lock picking, blowing the doors and science skill on electronic locks.

I think that the very fact we are comparing W2 with 10+ years old games is a good thing, not a bad thing. New games up to this point sucked most of the times

It’s bad because stacked up to 10+ year old games, it should be a clear improvement upon them, it is not.

 

[Cenobyte]

I completed the game a few days ago. While I agree that the writing certainly isn't stellar, it does the job and - usually - fits to the tone and overall atmosphere of the game. Outstanding writing and a really intricate story wouldn't fit to this more or less juvenile postapocalyptic fantasy that is Wasteland 2.

And as others wrote before, the quality of writing and story differs greatly from location to location. I think to condemn the game after Rail Nomads is a little bit premature, since you still have a lot of content before you.
That said, I will also grant that I'm a little bit disappointed with Seal Beach at the very end of the game. That area felt a little bit rushed to me. But I guess that's a common issue for games (just remember the endgame in Divine Divinity, for instance).

 

[Stinger]

I think Titan Canyon, Angel Oracle and Hollywood all had pretty interesting writing and some cool quest design.

Hollywood especially has some really interesting interactivity, it's a shame there's some bugginess to the triggers and that the designers haven't considered some of their own flags for example (Hollywood spoilers):

Spoiler

If you pursue the arc with Ascension McDade then at some point one of the other leaders Retribution Jones will stage a coup, however I messed around with each quest and ended up killing Retribution Jones early in one quest without pissing off the rest of the Militia which I was enjoying as I was playing all leaders against each other and slowly picking them off. Having Jones inexplicably stage a coup from the grave is a really big oversight that shouldn't have been misssed.

Overall the design in those three areas stood out a lot compared to the not as interesting areas like Highpool/Ag Centre or Rail Nomads. I think the writing and choices are alright, there's just a lot of quantity of locations and not enough focus on a smaller amount of areas so a lot of stuff gets spread thin.