PoE plot analysis.

[hiver]

No, only that is an assertion without explanation. You are the only one here who keeps maintaining a specific idea without anything to back it up but saying - but it could be! it just iiiiis!

Its the crucial fact that makes any such contemplation pointless and silly, just like Eder choosing to believe in some guy.
Its not a bad idea per se, or a bad setting. but it doesnt make much sense on that level, which makes sense only in our reality context.


as i said...

If the gods are not gods but men who eat souls (some a voluntary meld of some kind) - which then serve as some kind of batteries, the whole thing is nonsense - in relation to anything we believe about god, gods or souls - so you cannot them stupidly claim that there could still be same kind of meaning there.

dumbass.

 

[themadhatter114]

No, only that is an assertion without explanation. You are the only one here who keeps maintaining a specific idea without anything to back it up but saying - but it could be! it just iiiiis!

Its the crucial fact that makes any such contemplation pointless and silly, just like Eder choosing to believe in some guy.

Bare assertions.

Its not a bad idea per se, or a bad setting. but it doesnt make much sense on that level, which makes sense only in our reality context.


as i said...



dumbass.

That's barely an explanation. That's just a simple assertion that is supported only by a weak comparison to the Matrix.

 

[alkeides]

Thaos is not using baby soul power.

He wants to blame Hollowborn on animancy. He has done many atrocious acts over the century whenever he felt that belief in the gods were fading, he believes that animancy could cause doubt in the gods.

 

[Lord Andre]

A civilization advanced enough to make "gods" would not make "gods" because it's a retarded idea. You cannot have a race be retarded and technically advanced at the same time.

 

[rezaf]

You cannot have a race be retarded and technically advanced at the same time.

I dunno, our own race gives some indication to the opposite.

 

[Lord Andre]

You cannot have a race be retarded and technically advanced at the same time.

I dunno, our own race gives some indication to the opposite.

Actually the more technically advanced we became the less retarded we became. Granted we are still retarded but relatively speaking less retarded. By the point where we can make "mock gods" we wouldn't be retarded enough to do it.

From a story point of view, it's always tricky writing characters/nations that are smarter than you - the actual writer - because you are not smart enough to know what they think.

 

[rezaf]

Actually the more technically advanced we became the less retarded we became. Granted we are still retarded but relatively speaking less retarded. By the point where we can make "mock gods" we wouldn't be retarded enough to do it.

I wish I could be as sure about that as you are.

Anyway, the REAL core issue is that you're neglecting that an advanced "society" created the gods to "appease" the lesser nobodies, the Joes and Janes.

"We" as a whole might be less retarded than we were in, say medieval times, but individually?

 

[Bleed the Man]

"We" as a whole might be less retarded than we were in, say medieval times, but individually?

 

[DeepOcean]

Pillows of Eternity story is the result of a bunch of people meeting and on all those meetings not a single time there was someone that cared or knew how to do editting and was willing to cut bullshit... and ohh boy... the plot of this game smells like first draft that was ever analysed. The story is too unfocused and epic for its own good.

The first and second act try to be a low level DnD fantasy story about curses, politics, religious conflict and etc but when the game reaches 3rd act all of that is dropped like a rock and the game start talking about gods and you talking with gods and doing directly missions for the gods... the level of epicness just jump on a frightening pace but it when you go after some 2000 year guy that MADE the gods is when the thing reaches critical mass and explode on a mushroom cloud of epicness. Whoa... you actually defeat a 2000 year guy that can possess souls and MADE the Gods? What the plot of Pillows 2 will be? You saving the planet from Chuthulu monsters comming from the space wanting to feed on soul mashed potatoes?

It's hilarious to defeat superhuman demigods at level 10, at level 20 on Pillows 2 you will become a god at this rate. That is the kind of bullshit you do in Pillows. I know that Pillows needed to be "epic" but YOU ending the curse AND killing a 2000 year demigod was a bit too much. The act 3 is like someone was utherly bored of the stuff they did on act 1 and 2 and had the idea... "hey guys, can't we make Torment?" and dropped everything that happened on Act 1 and 2 like a rock.

Defiance Bay remain generic european city until the end and Twin Elms remain generic noble savage village until the end. Jeez... nobody cared into developing those places? Obsidian have you deling with demigods and gods before you even care about the basic setting of Not Forgotten Realms.

If they had sticked to the Legacy as a weird curse from the gods that nobody knew what it was and the brewing civil war on Dyrwood with Glanfanthans very happy to start another broken stone war to exploit the weakness and you having to navigate a really dangerous place soon to blow up and the act 3 was it blowing up it would be FAAAAAAARRRRRRR better than the parade of cliches and Deux Ex Machina Obsidian used on the main plot line.

I was yawning with "super awesome old civilization made super awesome stuff and disappeared.", that had been done quite a few times on books, tv shows, games and the list goes on and on. I expected they twisting a little to make it more interesting but they twisted the story indeed, the problem was that the twist is even more uninteresting "the gods were made by super awesome civilization." by some guy... right... anyone that truly get impressed by this bullshit must be 12 years old because only that explain people getting excited by so base cliches with nothing to make them fresh just plain and predictable cliches.

About the soul mashed potatoes thing, at that point soul magic became the writers hand wave to ANY bullshit the writers wanted to get away with. With no explanation how souls were supposed to work, there were no rules and limits to soul magic, you can even make gods with it. Soul power became the mass effect thing of Mass Effect, some bullshit to handwave how the setting worked and that was lazy as lazy can be. This kind of shit is one of the things that make people laugh of video game stories.

Obsidian just food for thought... how are we supposed to believe your bullshit world if we don't even know the rules? If it is anything goes and soul magic can create gods and the gods are fake... wait a moment? Are souls immortal? Are souls made of energy? What kind of energy? Is there a place they go after death? If the gods were created by humans, there must been a time where souls predated the gods, right? If that was the case, who created the souls? Are souls just another body that dies when someone dies? How babies souls can be prevented to appear on babies? Do the babies soul come from somewhere? Did people reincarnate before the gods were created? Is there a true god there suppervising this? What the fuck is going on? I'm going crazy... maybe I should have done as the fan boys and lowered my expectations so I could read all this trash and enjoy the shit on my mouth.

At least, on DnD gods depend on worshipping and if they have no worshippers... they can die and it was the believing of the people that gave them power... I would take that anyday to the cheap SOUL MAGIC of PoE.

I wouldn't go insane over this soul bullshit if they hadn't made this thing the major thing on the game. Dyrwood? Glanganthans? Defiance Bay? Nope, all of this is barely developed background for this soul bullshit. Look, I would forgive all of this and enjoy PoE as a cheapo fantasy romp with no pretention for anything serious if at least, there was a single NPC, antagonist or companion that were interesting.

NOBODY on this game do something or want to do something and even you don't even know what the fuck you are doing going after this Thaos guy. Sure, Obsidian take motivations out of their ass as skillfully as they deal with SOUL MAGIC but I stopped caring at their laughable attempts of IMPOSING motivations on the player.Common... nobody seems to have a life or desire or goal, no conflict... anything... even fucking Dragon Age 2 handled this better and tried to make your companions appear to have a life independednt of your will and having their own wills and I'm not singing the praises of crap like Dragons Age 2 but that is just how low Obsidian dropped. It is hilarious that Sawyer didn't play Mass Effect 2 because of the shit writing... ohhh God... the irony on this.

I would like to talk about imposing motivation on the player... this is BAD Obsidian, don't do this. If you failed into creating a beliavable motivation don't try to impose the ones you take out of your ass on me. I don't care and don't believe on them, stop it. Anyway... I missed the ole aligment system of DnD, yeah, it was bullshit but Obsidian Honest, stoic, agressive and cruel and their little reputation points that don't mean anything is worse. It is hilarious that I had to turn the dialog tooltips on to identify what was the honest, benevolent, cruel or rational responses were many times.
The ole Dnd system is bullshit but at least you had material for a replay with it by playing with a good playthrough and evil playthrough.

One last thing, where is the companion reputations, choices, unlockable abilities and conflicts involving companions on this game? Jeez... this is the most barebones Obsidian game on this aspect, worse than even New Vegas. Didn't Obsidian said they just wanted 8 companions to add more depth? Outside Durance and Grieving mother that are more verbose than having any depth to them, where is the depth? The companions have no mechanics attached to them and they have no conflict going on between them. Watching the banter between companions on this game is like watching paint dry.

Anyway... I'm tired of discussing PoE. As a policy, all next Obsidian games are going to be handleled as radioactive waste by me until I have enough proof they were actually well done.

 

[Athelas]

you actually defeat a 2000 year guy that can possess souls and MADE the Gods?

Thaos didn't create the gods. You seriously had that much trouble following the story?

t least, on DnD gods depend on worshipping and if they have no worshippers... they can die and it was the believing of the people that gave them power... I would take that anyday to the cheap SOUL MAGIC of PoE.

Yes, gods' existence being dependent on the faith of people - when their existence is common knowledge among those people. Such a sound, logical concept.

Obsidian just food for thought... how are we supposed to believe your bullshit world if we don't even know the rules? If it is anything goes and soul magic can create gods and the gods are fake... wait a moment? Are souls immortal? Are souls made of energy? What kind of energy? Is there a place they go after death? If the gods were created by humans, there must been a time where souls predated the gods, right? If that was the case, who created the souls? Are souls just another body that dies when someone dies? How babies souls can be prevented to appear on babies? Do the babies soul come from somewhere? Did people reincarnate before the gods were created? Is there a true god there suppervising this? What the fuck is going on? I'm going crazy... maybe I should have done as the fan boys and lowered my expectations so I could read all this trash and enjoy the shit on my mouth.

You're contradicting yourself. First you complain about the game being too epic, and then you complain about the game not going into Big Bang/creationism territory, in the first entry in a new world no less. Especially considering the reveal of the gods not being real is made at the very end of the game.

Dragons Age 2 but that is just how low Obsidian dropped

Seek help.

 

[Doktor Best]

I have to say that i liked the idea of the big twist, but the execution was not done in a good way imho.

It kinda forcefeeds you the appearent atheistic views of the writer. You learn that the engwithians disproved(!) the existence of any god. How did they disprove it? How can you disprove the universal nonexistence of something? What of the soulpower, where does it come from etc usw if there is no higher deity?

None of those questions are answered, the nonexistence of gods is absolute and out of debate, without any logical backup. Your character cant even question that revelation, let alone distrust Iovara, and the same goes for all companions even the ones who devoted all their life to their gods (durance)

This whole god-disproval stuff is also absolutely not needed for the story hook or the delivering of the big twist. Its just strapped on artifically and in my opinion weakens it.

Yes its quite possible that the sequel reflects that aspect of the plot in a better and more detailed and varied way, but so close to the end of the game it just felt a little bit rushed to me.

 

[Athelas]

I have to say that i liked the idea of the big twist, but the execution was not done in a good way imho.

It kinda forcefeeds you the appearent atheistic views of the writer. You learn that the engwithians disproved(!) the existence of any god. How did they disprove it? How can you disprove the universal nonexistence of something?

It's an agnostic stance, not an atheistic one. They can't prove or disprove the existence of the gods, so they take matters into their own hands by creating the faux-gods to bring an end to the unrest.

 

[Doktor Best]

But didnt Iovara say that the Engwithians actually discovered that there are no gods at all in their pursue to find them through animancy? Maybe i have gotten some lines wrong, im not a native speaker, but it appeared pretty clear to me.

I mean didnt they invent the gods to masquerade the truth they felt was so horrible?

 

[DeepOcean]

Yes, gods' existence being dependent on the faith of people - when their existence is common knowledge among those people. Such a sound, logical concept.

Don't see your point here. I didn't claim the explanation is logical, it just a less convoluted way of explaining the power of the gods than... ehh... old civilization didn't discover gods so they created them with convoluted and barely explained soul magic of many souls somehow creating them and even caused an entire nation to suffer a curse because they wanted the people to believe in gods that really existed anyway and gave power to their followers? One is a barely explained way of how the gods get power and another is a really convoluted way of explaining the gods power by convoluted SOUL MAGIC and be pretentious about it. DnD version is as bullshit but less pretentious, if someone made a DnD game where in the end the dramatic discovery was the bullshit barely explained ways how the gods worked/were created... I would hate that plot concept as hard as I hate it on PoE. I didn't care the gods were created by old civilization, what this matter for your character? His bullshit force fed past life, Obsidian introduced was supposed to make that important?

You're contradicting yourself. First you complain about the game being too epic, and then you complain about the game not going into Big Bang/creationism territory, in the first entry in a new world no less. Especially considering the reveal of the gods not being real is made at the very end of the game.

I don't see any contradiction. I thought that if the soul concept is so important, I think it was kinda of important of explain what the fuck is a soul in PoE's world in the first place. Is the concept of a soul there the same many religions have? Is it another body? Is it energy? What is it? If they didn't want to explain, they should refrain of allowing the antagonist of using such amazing SOUL MAGIC in the first place. It is a simple thing, the greater the bullshit is, the bigger the explanation needs to be, small bullshit, small explanation. It was their choice of plot that demand a big explanation. It cost them to have a debate between two animancers in respect of the nature of a soul on the sanitarium for example? This would hardly make things more epic as you claim. You don't even need a definitive answer, even conflicting theories would do but anything...

Seek help.

Sure, you just cut the part out of context where I said Dragon Age 2 is crap and I said Dragon Age 2 was better than PoE at creating the impression the companions had a life of their own what is complete true, just go watch a let's play of it, wasn't saying that Bioware has fantatic writing, what? Reading disability? Seek help? Common... codex butthurt 101? Don't want serious discussion, don't you?

 

[Gord]

Don't see your point here. I didn't claim the explanation is logical, it just a less convoluted way of explaining the power of the gods than... ehh... old civilization didn't discover gods so they created them with convoluted and barely explained soul magic of many souls somehow creating them and even caused an entire nation to suffer a curse because they wanted the people to believe in gods that really existed anyway and gave power to their followers?

Wasn't the whole Waidwen's Legacy thing more of an elaborated plot to get Animancy outlawed since Animancers might theoretically eventually make the same discoveries the Engwithans had made? Including the potential discovery that the "gods" are artificial beings?
Which is still kind of convoluted, but a different thing.

I don't see any contradiction. I thought that if the soul concept is so important, I think it was kinda of important of explain what the fuck is a soul in PoE's world in the first place. Is the concept of a soul there the same many religions have? Is it another body? Is it energy? What is it? If they didn't want to explain, they should refrain of allowing the antagonist of using such amazing SOUL MAGIC in the first place. It is a simple thing, the greater the bullshit is, the bigger the explanation needs to be, small bullshit, small explanation.

On the contrary, I think some things don't need to be explained in detail, at least not initially. And certain things should be left unexplained (*cough* Midiclorians *cough*).

 

[Athelas]

One is a barely explained way of how the gods get power and another is a really convoluted way of explaining the gods power by convoluted SOUL MAGIC and be pretentious about it. DnD version is as bullshit but less pretentious, if someone made a DnD game where in the end the dramatic discovery was the bullshit

I'm not sure what is supposed to be difficult to grasp about the concept. The soul, essence, spirit or whatever you want to call it of a person can empower stuff. The concept is used in plenty of fantasy fiction and oh, this little game known as Mask of the Betrayer, where you could even use said essence to craft weapons and armour.

I don't see any contradiction.

You don't see the contradiction between criticizing the plot for being too epic and simultaneously demanding the writers play all their cards in the first game, right down to explaining this universe's equivalent of the Big Bang? If you don't see the contradiction, I can't help you. The people's ignorance of the workings of souls is deliberate - the study of animancy is a recent phenomenon.

Sure, you just cut the part out of context where I said Dragon Age 2 is crap and I said Dragon Age 2 was better than PoE at creating the impression the companions had a life of their own what is complete true, just go watch a let's play of it, wasn't saying that Bioware has fantatic writing, what? Reading disability? Seek help? Common... codex butthurt 101? Don't want serious discussion, don't you?

I didn't cut out anything, I just quoted what was relevant to my post. What was your point exactly? If you could give a specific example to illustrate what you meant, do it, instead of casting blame on others.

 

[DeepOcean]

I'm not sure what is supposed to be difficult to grasp about the concept. The soul, essence, spirit or whatever you want to call it of a person can empower stuff. The concept is used in plenty of fantasy fiction and oh, this little game known as Mask of the Betrayer, where you could even use said essence to craft weapons and armour.

Yeah but you don't spend an entire act dealing with animancy or a science that is supposed to study it on MotB. You didn't get it, I don't care with the plot explaining every single detail on the game but I do care when this is important like Thaos powers for example. If Thaos didn't have or didn't use those powers, I wouldn't raise questions about it and wouldn't become annoyed with the lack of answers, for example and soul magic could stay happy as background don't needing explanation.

You don't see the contradiction between criticizing the plot for being too epic and simultaneously demanding the writers play all their cards in the first game, right down to explaining this universe's equivalent of the Big Bang?

Man, you claim I contradict myself but that is exactly what you do. Don't you think that saying the gods are made up by an old civilization and meeting a member of said civilization is kinda "play all the cards in the first game"?

The people's ignorance of the workings of souls is deliberate - the study of animancy is a recent phenomenon.

Did you ignored what I said? People don't know how quantum computing can work but that spark more discussion not less. When you don't know how something work, you wonder alot about and people start creating different theories, some closer to the truth and others not so much. I didn't see any of this, I don't need direct explanations but speculation enough. Again, this wouldn't even be necessary if some plot points on PoE (Thaos powers for example.) highly demanded this. I think discusssion like this would he highly important as animancy is very important for the plot and the old civilization were supposed masters of it and animancy was related with the way the gods were created, that is a big revelation at the end.

Sure, you just cut the part out of context where I said Dragon Age 2 is crap and I said Dragon Age 2 was better than PoE at creating the impression the companions had a life of their own what is complete true, just go watch a let's play of it, wasn't saying that Bioware has fantatic writing, what? Reading disability? Seek help? Common... codex butthurt 101? Don't want serious discussion, don't you?

I didn't cut out anything, I just quoted what was relevant to my post. What was your point exactly? If you could give a specific example to illustrate what you meant, do it.[/QUOTE]
Well... there were different sides in conflict on Dragon Age 2, the mages and the templars, quite a few of your companions heavily favored one side or the other and some did pretty important things on the plot because of this. Some you earned approval or disapproval in case you took decisions that favored one side or the other.Bioware fucked up on plot execution ( I won't even mention the rest.) and the plot is full of nonsense but things happen while you are playing and your companions are involved with it.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Athelas Regarding reincarnation and the whole cycle of death and rebirth, was that still happening before faux gods were made?

 

[Athelas]

Athelas Regarding reincarnation and the whole cycle of death and rebirth, was that still happening before faux gods were made?

 

[DeepOcean]

Don't see your point here. I didn't claim the explanation is logical, it just a less convoluted way of explaining the power of the gods than... ehh... old civilization didn't discover gods so they created them with convoluted and barely explained soul magic of many souls somehow creating them and even caused an entire nation to suffer a curse because they wanted the people to believe in gods that really existed anyway and gave power to their followers?

Wasn't the whole Waidwen's Legacy thing more of an elaborated plot to get Animancy outlawed since Animancers might theoretically eventually make the same discoveries the Engwithans had made? Including the potential discovery that the "gods" are artificial beings?
Which is still kind of convoluted, but a different thing.

True but the whole Eothas incident and the Godhammer kinda let people guessing if the gods were real and super awesome or not, it is no acident that Thaos chosen Dyrwood to try to ban animancy instead of going to Old Vailia where things were more advanced.

 

[Athelas]

The plot takes place in the Dyrwood because that's where the Engwithan ruins are located that are critical to Thaos' plan.

 

[DeepOcean]

The plot takes place in the Dyrwood because that's where the Engwithan ruins are located that are critical to Thaos' plan.

So, 2000 year guy couldn't invent a way to sabotage animancy on the Vailian republics that didn't involve the ruins like happened on the Aedyr empire? The fact that the game dedicated Guilded Vale and a good bunch of act 1 to the Eothas fall theme and the legacy seemed pretty important to me.

 

[Athelas]

So, 2000 year guy couldn't invent a way to sabotage animancy on the Vailian republics that didn't involve the ruins like happened on the Aedyr empire? The fact that the game dedicated Guilded Vale and a good bunch of act 1 to the Eothas fall theme and the legacy seemed pretty important to me.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Sabotaging animancy has nothing to do with the Engwithan machines in itself, those were used to steal souls, causing the Hollowborn epidemic. It's implied Eothas invaded the Dyrwood to stop the Hollowborn plot. Sabotaging animancy is another goal of Thaos/Woedica, presumably because animancy could help mortals discovering the truth about the gods.

Gilded Vale is relevant because it has the highest rate of Hollowborn, because it's located closest to the machine at Cilant Lis. Something similar applies to Dyrford, which is located near the machine at Cliabant Rilag.

 

[Gord]

True but the whole Eothas incident and the Godhammer kinda let people guessing if the gods were real and super awesome or not, it is no acident that Thaos chosen Dyrwood to try to ban animancy instead of going to Old Vailia where things were more advanced.

Nobody ever doubted if the gods were real based on the Godhammer incident. They only doubted whether Eothas was still alive and thus worshipping him made sense anymore.
The existance of the gods is obvious to the people in the setting.

Regarding Animancy in other parts of the world: Who's saying that Thaos doesn't have plans for those as well? You just happen to cross his plans in the Dyrwood.

 

[themadhatter114]

I have to say that i liked the idea of the big twist, but the execution was not done in a good way imho.

It kinda forcefeeds you the appearent atheistic views of the writer. You learn that the engwithians disproved(!) the existence of any god. How did they disprove it? How can you disprove the universal nonexistence of something? What of the soulpower, where does it come from etc usw if there is no higher deity?

None of those questions are answered, the nonexistence of gods is absolute and out of debate, without any logical backup. Your character cant even question that revelation, let alone distrust Iovara, and the same goes for all companions even the ones who devoted all their life to their gods (durance)

This whole god-disproval stuff is also absolutely not needed for the story hook or the delivering of the big twist. Its just strapped on artifically and in my opinion weakens it.

Yes its quite possible that the sequel reflects that aspect of the plot in a better and more detailed and varied way, but so close to the end of the game it just felt a little bit rushed to me.

I think there is still room for this deeper debate. Iovara isn't a 100% reliable narrator, but the real focus is her discoveries about the gods that are being worshipped.

The player just doesn't have real reason to get into a deep debate about the possible existence of some other as-yet unknown god.

The Engwithans effectively convinced themselves that the pantheon then worshipped was false. They creates their own. To further bolster Iovara's confidence in her assertion, there was no action by any "true" god to interfere with these new artificial gods. No one cared to strike down their Tower of Babel. If there is some true god, it's seemingly not one that has revealed itself to anyone or takes any interest in the affairs of Eora.