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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear Pre-Release Thread

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
don't forget tablets... supposed to shit with gold coins..
 

Keldryn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
1,053
Location
Vancouver, Canada
I've been playing BG:EE on my iPad Mini during my daily train ride to and from work, and it is awesome; it was a hassle, but I got BG1NPC and SCS installed to it as well.

You guys complain way too much.

I was going to move on to BG2 when I finish, but maybe I'll wait for this "interquel" and play that first... Except the tablet versions are always a few months behind the PC versions, aren't they?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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I recently found that Beamdog launched a new Beamblog, where they posted a bunch of stuff that I missed. A lot of it is LARPy stuff about a PnP campaign that they're running, but here's something that might be interesting: http://blog.beamdog.com/2015/06/spotlight-on-item-design.html

Spotlight On: Item Design

When we create the Enhanced Editions, we get the opportunity to design new content in addition to updating graphics/interface and fixing issues. Creating new items is especially fun. Nothing's worse than fighting a boss monster only to get a generic +1 longsword and some potions off the body. Unique items add interest to the game and item lore can deepen the world.

When we create new items, we consider two main points. Today on the Beamblog we'll go over these points and showcase some of our Enhanced Edition items.

Item Placement

Item placement refers to two principles: what challenges need to be overcome to obtain the item, and at what point in the game the item should be found. Both these principles inform how powerful the item should be. If an item appears early in the game, unguarded, in an unlocked treasure chest, it probably shouldn't be a holy avenger. If an item appears late in the game behind a wall of red dragons, in a trapped treasure chest that can only be opened by solving a riddle, it probably shouldn't be a potion of healing.

It's important to consider where items of particular types appear in the game as well. If all the magical halberds are extremely powerful and appear at the end of the game, players who specialize in halberds will feel cheated (or will switch to a different specialization far before they reach the end of the game). It's important to place a good variety of items in each chapter.

Item Balance

Item balance refers to the item's powers and how they relate to other items placed similarly in the game. Balancing the power of an item is something of an art. It seems obvious that items shouldn't have “too many” good abilities, but how many is too many (and for that matter, which abilities are “good”), is less clear. A +1 dagger that becomes a +4 dagger against badgers might seem like a terrible weapon, but if the designers know there's an all-badger dungeon coming up, it turns into a great item.

(As long as the dagger of badger slaying appears before the badger dungeon, that is. This shows how item placement and balance are related.)

When we add powers to new items, we consider what other items in the same area of roughly the same importance can do. We try not to overlap abilities (in other words, we don't want a +1 longsword of flame and a +1 halberd of flame and a +1 dagger of flame all in the same area). Items that protect against specific spells are less powerful than items that protect against blanket status effects—that's the difference between a cloak that protects the wearer from hold person and one that protects the wearer from paralysis. Items that grant ability score or Luck increases must be designed carefully, as those are some of the most powerful bonuses available.

Powerful items aren't bad items, as long as they are placed properly. Item design requires writers, artists, and programmers to work together to create a memorable and useful item with a distinct appearance and a place in the world.

Enhanced Edition Items

The new items that appear in the Enhanced Edition games fill in some holes where items were needed and let us add a bit to the lore of the world. Below are three of our home-brewed items.


Darkened Glory
This weapon was originally owned by a young officer guarding a diplomatic envoy from Kara-Tur. When the envoy's caravan was ambushed by a small band of yuan-ti raiders, most of the guards were quickly dispatched during a surprise attack, save for one wagon and the young woman defending it. In wave after wave, the yuan-ti charged at the officer, and in wave after wave they were cut down by the speed and fury of her steel. At last the leader of the yuan-ti raiders faced off with the young woman, and although he did finally overpower her, he was astonished by her skill. The katana she carried was recovered and later enchanted by a high priest of Sseth. The once graceful blade was tainted by dark magic and now guides those who wield it to inflict the severest of wounds upon their enemies.
• +2 katana
• Cast curse centered on the target each time a critical hit is scored
• +5% chance of scoring a critical hit

The Flaming Fists of Lin Mei
Lin Mei was described as a woman of exquisite beauty and a hellish temper. When her family urged her to find a husband, she issued a challenge to the men of the land: Whoever could make her yield in single combat could have her hand. The suitors gathered from all across Kara-Tur to test their skill, and although she fought with no weapons but her open hands, she bested every single one of them. Disappointed, all suitors left but one—a young man with kind eyes and a pair of gilded bracers, which he presented to her as a gift. "No one can hope to tame your passions," he said, "and those who would try will never understand your heart. May these trinkets serve as a reminder that your temper is your own and not to be controlled." Lin Mei did not marry that man, but she left home with him that day to seek adventure, and together they spent the rest of their lives in closer partnership than any husband and wife. Eventually the pair retired, and Lin Mei quietly disappeared from the annals of history. All that remains of her story are the bracers she wore, still burning with the fire of her untamed passion.
  • THAC0: +2 when attacking with fists
  • 25% chance of inflicting 1d2 points of fire damage when attacking with fists
  • Cast burning hands 1/day


Bard Hat


This ostentatious peacock-blue hat is festooned with green and purple feathers. Once the possession of an unfailingly chipper bard, the hat was stolen when the bard couldn't resist showing off the hat in a seedy tavern and bragging about its magical powers. In truth the hat has only moderate enchantments on it, but its stylish appearance makes it a coveted choice for many bards.
  • Immunity to silence and deafness
  • Bard song effects linger on for 2 additional rounds after the bard stops singing

Wait, that last one isn't in any of our games. How did it get on the list?

Aha, it's from Adventure Y! That explains it. We hope you enjoyed this look at how items are designed (and the sneak peek of the Adventure Y bard hat). Check back next week for a new Beamblog post.
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,062
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
Item Placement

Item placement refers to two principles: what challenges need to be overcome to obtain the item, and at what point in the game the item should be found. Both these principles inform how powerful the item should be. If an item appears early in the game, unguarded, in an unlocked treasure chest, it probably shouldn't be a holy avenger. If an item appears late in the game behind a wall of red dragons, in a trapped treasure chest that can only be opened by solving a riddle, it probably shouldn't be a potion of healing.

It's important to consider where items of particular types appear in the game as well. If all the magical halberds are extremely powerful and appear at the end of the game, players who specialize in halberds will feel cheated (or will switch to a different specialization far before they reach the end of the game). It's important to place a good variety of items in each chapter.

Item Balance

Item balance refers to the item's powers and how they relate to other items placed similarly in the game. Balancing the power of an item is something of an art. It seems obvious that items shouldn't have “too many” good abilities, but how many is too many (and for that matter, which abilities are “good”), is less clear. A +1 dagger that becomes a +4 dagger against badgers might seem like a terrible weapon, but if the designers know there's an all-badger dungeon coming up, it turns into a great item.

(As long as the dagger of badger slaying appears before the badger dungeon, that is. This shows how item placement and balance are related.)

When we add powers to new items, we consider what other items in the same area of roughly the same importance can do. We try not to overlap abilities (in other words, we don't want a +1 longsword of flame and a +1 halberd of flame and a +1 dagger of flame all in the same area). Items that protect against specific spells are less powerful than items that protect against blanket status effects—that's the difference between a cloak that protects the wearer from hold person and one that protects the wearer from paralysis. Items that grant ability score or Luck increases must be designed carefully, as those are some of the most powerful bonuses available.

Powerful items aren't bad items, as long as they are placed properly. Item design requires writers, artists, and programmers to work together to create a memorable and useful item with a distinct appearance and a place in the world.

How a subpar company who is refactoring old IE code seems to understand Itemization better then Obsidian. News at 11.
 

waywardOne

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
2,318
Immunity to silence for any spellcaster and protection from critical hits for a bard are not "moderate enchantments", especially getting that going into bg2.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Immunity to silence for any spellcaster and protection from critical hits for a bard are not "moderate enchantments", especially getting that going into bg2.


I'm assuming that it can only be worn by Bards. Probably a bit overkill, but considering how shit Bards are in BG (aside from the Blade) it's not that big a deal. They could use some loving.
 

waywardOne

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
2,318
I have issues with "RPGs" that insist on sperging to make all races/classes equal in power.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
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Messages
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A BG2 bard immune to crits is not even remotely equal in power to.. well, anything.

Immunity to silence is more of a deal.
Then again, I can't remember having been silenced that often in BG2 to begin with. I used that spell often, but did enemies?
 

waywardOne

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
2,318
Crits on a d6 hp/level char are a serious concern. Getting rid of that lets you not sweat physical damage protection as much. Removing inherent vulnerabilities is, in fact, a lazy way to equalize power. It can't be any clearer. Make a counter-point besides gainsaying, or let's move on.
 

ArchAngel

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Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
Crits on a d6 hp/level char are a serious concern. Getting rid of that lets you not sweat physical damage protection as much. Removing inherent vulnerabilities is, in fact, a lazy way to equalize power. It can't be any clearer. Make a counter-point besides gainsaying, or let's move on.
Inherent penalty that was only added in IE games anyway because in PnP helmets didn't give you immunity to criticals.
 

Blackguard

Learned
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
165
A BG2 bard immune to crits is not even remotely equal in power to.. well, anything.

Immunity to silence is more of a deal.
Then again, I can't remember having been silenced that often in BG2 to begin with. I used that spell often, but did enemies?

Silence was never really a problem in BG2 for me either, deafness even less. Also at least based on that blog post the hat doesn't actually seem to even give crit immunity. 2 rounds of free bard song is also pretty much useless unless you are planning on constantly micromanaging your bard.
 

Somberlain

Arcane
Zionist Agent
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Messages
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Location
Basement
Being immune to silence is not a big deal in BG2, because

1) Enemies try to silence you very rarely
2) 2nd level spell Vocalize exists and low level spell slots aren't that important anymore, especially when you have so many of them
 

aVENGER

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
218
A BG2 bard immune to crits is not even remotely equal in power to.. well, anything.

In Adventure Y, certain headgear items like ioun stones, hoods, cowls, circlets and hats don't grant immunity to critical hits. That's a property reserved to proper helmets now.

We unhardcoded the critical hit protection and it can now be set on a per item basis. For example, if someone wants a game where a full plate protects from critical hits and a helmet doesn't, they can make that now.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Well, that blog post didn't tell me anything. I guess we'll see when there's information.

The helmet differentiationsounds cool.
 

Azeot

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
179
Location
Trieste
Mods like rogue rebalance already had helmets (or, in rr's case cowls) which didn't grant critical hit protection, so nothing new on the western front.
Still, it's cool you are going to add it in the game proper.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,426
Mods like rogue rebalance already had helmets (or, in rr's case cowls) which didn't grant critical hit protection, so nothing new on the western front.
Still, it's cool you are going to add it in the game proper.

As far as I know, the cowls and ioun stones in mods and stuff did in fact protect against critical hits.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
I'm assuming that it can only be worn by Bards. Probably a bit overkill, but considering how shit Bards are in BG (aside from the Blade) it's not that big a deal. They could use some loving.

Thit shit... second "mages are shit at low level !"
Lack of knowledge.

First of all bards are one of the most overpowered classes in BG. Why ? Because they don't completely sucks in combat, can wear interesting things, they have their songs, can memorize low grade spells and THEY CAN USE FUCKING WANDS AND SCROLLS.
Same goes for mages.

Low level bard or mage is better than low level fighter, thief or any other class precisely because they can use gear that will kill most of them like nothing.

Especially in BG2 where you find shitton of powerful scrolls everywhere.

Only more overpowered class is imo fighter/mage. Because precisely is better in malee and at the same time he can use wands and scrolls.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,426
Aren't 2nd ed bards actually really good because their caster levels are always higher than mages? And bards can reach level 40... 40d6 skull traps? Fuck yes!!!

BTW, do BG2 spells keep improving, or do all spells cap out at a specific level? What I mean is that Fireball obviously caps out at 10d6, but do Skull Traps keep getting better until level 40 as the description suggests? Or is there a hidden cap to the spell?
 

Rivmusique

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They do, but SCS caps it. And if it ain't your first time, you best be playing with SCS.

Edit: ah, this is a beamdog thread. No idea if EE fixed it.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
First of all bards are one of the most overpowered classes in BG. Why ? Because they don't completely sucks in combat, can wear interesting things, they have their songs, can memorize low grade spells and THEY CAN USE FUCKING WANDS AND SCROLLS.
Same goes for mages.

Only more overpowered class is imo fighter/mage. Because precisely is better in malee and at the same time he can use wands and scrolls.

Low level mages are crazy powerful and I don't know how anyone could argue differently. Sleep is ridiculously overpowered at lower levels.

I hear what you're saying, but Bards are really only good if you like to cheese the game through wand spam (and wand cloning if you really want to break things). Aside from that, though, they really don't have too much going for them. Horrendous THAC0 and APR, and very slow spell progression. High caster level is nice for level 3 damage spells (or just spamming Spell Trap if you haven't modded in a fix for that spell), but in my experience it's pretty rare that they'll be more than a level or two ahead of the wizard anyway, so it's not like it's a huge boon.

Also I hope that by Fighter/Mage you meant Fighter->Mage. Multiclassing will never, ever be overpowered in BG unless you solo and thereby get enough XP to cheese HLAs. In a full six-person party, though, you're pretty much relegating yourself to a support position.

And really, that's the crux of it. If you want someone to be able to use wands or scrolls, dualclassing will always, always be a better option than Bard. Period. Fighter->Mage or Thief->Mage will be way more powerful than a Bard will. Even something like taking a level of Mage and then dualling over to Fighter would give you a melee powerhouse that can spam wands and scrolls like crazy.

So that's the thing. Bards aren't really that great unless you want to cheese, and if you do want to cheese then you can do much better than Bards.
 

Somberlain

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Messages
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Aren't 2nd ed bards actually really good because their caster levels are always higher than mages? And bards can reach level 40... 40d6 skull traps? Fuck yes!!!

BTW, do BG2 spells keep improving, or do all spells cap out at a specific level? What I mean is that Fireball obviously caps out at 10d6, but do Skull Traps keep getting better until level 40 as the description suggests? Or is there a hidden cap to the spell?

Yes, bards are especially useful buffers due to their high caster level, though most damage spells do have caps but buffs don't. Skull Trap's ridiculous damage is probably an oversight, but as Rivmusique said, SCS has an optional component that caps it at 12d6.
 

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