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Moonspeak Undertale - friendship/genocide RPG

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
I couldn't resist checking out the game after the 'this will change your life forever' levels of hype. I came away disappointed.

I don't think Undertale is a deconstruction. Or at least, not a successful one. The problem with deconstructing jRPG's is that it requires you to ignore 30+ years of video game canon, since it's a genre that is still faithfully modeled after the earliest Wizardry and Ultima titles to a large extent. Things like pacifism towards enemies and the issue of artificiality of game mechanics have already been tackled by plenty of games - and better, by seamlessly weaving them into the game instead of making them blatantly 4th wall breaking and operating on moon logic like Undertale does.
 
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Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,016
Eh, just because other games have done it too doesn't mean this particular one doesn't count. Being first in line isn't worth jack shit imo.
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Jun 24, 2013
Messages
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Care to name those games? I can only think of Cavia titles.

KOTOR 2?
My point was that those things were not in need of deconstruction. Having options for stealth/diplomacy (where appropriate), or having a sensible power curve so that your characters don't become gods overnight, is what more RPG's should strive for, they're not things that need subversion anymore than shitty controls or badly designed UI's do.

A game that is a straight up deconstruction of the genre though? You mean a game that understands the artificiality of save/reload and makes your character an immortal, while simultaneously making his dilemma his inability to die? A game where your stats are primarily tools of introspection rather than killing tools? A game where your seemingly rapid power growth is simply the result of you regaining previously forgotten memories and training? A game where instead of inputting your name and creating your character at the beginning, you only receive your name and identity at the end of the game? Gee, I wonder if such a game exists somewhere.
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Messages
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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
So you did mean KOTOR 2!

:smug:

(The joke is that Obsidian loved the PS:T plot/idea so much, they used it two more times: KOTOR 2 and MotB.)
 

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,203
So you did mean KOTOR 2!

:smug:

(The joke is that Obsidian loved the PS:T plot/idea so much, they used it two more times: KOTOR 2 and MotB.)

Not just the plot. Ravel shows up in Kotor 2 as Kreia. I believe in MoTB she does so as well, but I don't remember who was her incarnation here.

About OFF, I would add that it's a French game, which means you can already expect something very weird. OFF certainly served as inspiration for Undertale, but it has a VERY different style. OFF is more "traditional", in the sense that you must fight usually evil monsters to progress, you have a party, the main character believes he has a righteous cause, etc. Fortunately, you DO NOT have to grind (combat is quite easy actually). Unfortunately, it is quite short and you'll see everything it has to offer in a single playthrough.
 
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Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
So you did mean KOTOR 2!

:smug:

(The joke is that Obsidian loved the PS:T plot/idea so much, they used it two more times: KOTOR 2 and MotB.)
Not really. MoTB doesn't deconstruct anything and Kotor 2 is primarily about deconstructing Star Wars. It's a good thing these games told interesting new stories instead of just rehashing Torment.
 
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Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
I don't think the meta/"deconstructive" shit is all that good, interesting, or important. I think it's even misplaced and stupid, really.

The main good points are the fact that the guy knew how to maintain a good cute surreal atmosphere with pretty good characters, with pacing that keeps the gameplay mostly in the right point on the tedium -> annoyance continuum. The music (made by the same dude as everything else, which is kinda crazy) is very nice and the art works too.

I wish somehow it hadn't been advertised as a game designed for a "pacifist" run so you could decide to do that and then realize it's viable. But then it probably wouldn't have sold as well, because that is its gimmick.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,016
If they didn't advertise it as such the vast majority of people wouldn't have even realized they can do that. People are very very dumb, would likely just kill every single boss and assume that was the only way to play.
 

Durandal

Arcane
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May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
If they didn't advertise it as such the vast majority of people wouldn't have even realized they can do that. People are very very dumb, would likely just kill every single boss and assume that was the only way to play.
That kind of summed up my feelings about Iji, where after completing the game you are presented with a bunch of stats, among them a list of how many creeps you've killed.
Turns out you can play the game without even hurting a fly, which caused text logs, your character cries, and enemy responses to change based on how many you've killed.
In my defense, going the lethal route for 2D platformers is how I've been taught when I was a kid, it ain't exactly the same when you have a giant MERCY button as one of your command options or your brother telling you that a non-lethal takedown is always the most silent takedown.
It does make you think, though.
 

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,203
It may be blunt how the game presents it, but it is necessary: the strategy to be allowed to "Spare" enemies is not always obvious and, now that Youtubers have started playing this game, even more reason to do so for the mouthbreaters wider audience that will sooner or later play this game.

Changing the topic, we finally got a Save Editor:
http://crumblingstatue.github.io/FloweysTimeMachine/

No idea if it works, but this is making me consider giving the game another go to allow Sans to have a bad time/mess around a little more.
 
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Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
"Undertale is far more than nostalgia and knowing jokes. It's a tragicomic masterpiece"

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/10/15/conversations-with-myself-on-undertales-universal-appeal/

Conversations With Myself: On Undertale’s Universal Appeal

Undertale [official site] is a brilliant game and I want everyone to play it. I worry that people will think it’s so deeply rooted in nostalgia that they’ll need a degree in RPGs to enjoy it, or that it’s a series of quirky in-jokes. It isn’t but I don’t want to tell you precisely what it is – I want you to see for yourself. To that end, I’ve had a big conversation with myself to answer some doubts concerns that those of you who haven’t yet played might be harbouring. There are no spoilers.

Even though I spend parts of my working life trying to explain why some things are superior to other things, I rarely persist if somebody isn’t enjoying a thing I recommended. For many of us, there are more games available than ever before, and many of them are available cheaply and almost immediately thanks to the magic of the internet. There was a time when I’d persevere with a terrible game because it was the only one I was likely to own for the next few months – a birthday present judged for its cover rather than its content.

Whenever I find myself longing for the days when I had more free time than expendable income, I force myself to remember that I spent three months playing vampire cyberpunk adventure BloodNet because it had sucked up all of my spending money. Hell, I completed movie-themed Amiga platformer Oscar at least five times and managed to convince myself the titular character was cooler than Zool (note: nobody before or since has been cooler than Zool).

15undertale.jpg


Nowadays, there’s little point in persisting with something that isn’t immediately appealing. Sure, that appeal might be in the promise of pleasures to come – few people pick up a complex strategy game and has the time of their life before learning the ropes – but if something isn’t for you that’s fine. Walk away and play one of the other million things available. Like the inhabitants of a seaside tearoom, we all have our own cuppa and that’s just fine.

Except when it isn’t. Undertale, which is our game of the month, is one of my favourite things of recent times. I want everyone to play it but I’ve already met several people who’ve been dissuaded from picking it up for various reasons. Here, without spoiling a damn thing, I’d like to address some of the wariness I’ve heard from people who think this marvelous, beautiful game isn’t for them.

Because I think it is. I think it’s for all of you.

under4.jpg


All of you: Well, you’re definitely wrong, it isn’t for me because just look at that retro pixel art. Eugh! It’s like a NES did a sick on my monitor and it’s certainly not what I bought this leaning tower of PC for.

The apparent simplicity of the art serves two purposes, as far as I can tell. First of all, it does appear to be self-consciously old-fashioned but that’s not for the sake of tickling your nostalgia-glands – rather it’s a reflection of the naivety that is the topmost layer of the game’s world. This is Naïve art, or an approximation of it, rather than what I tend to think of as pixel art. It is young rather than old.

If the fact that they serve as a perfect costume for the world that is wearing them isn’t a good enough reason to appreciate – or at least accept – the graphics, then here’s another good reason. As you move through the game, unusual effects come into play. A zoom on a certain character or a playful bit of lighting might not sound unusual but the lack of high fidelity trickery makes these moments dramatic, hilarious and touching. Undertale is a perfect lesson in making small gestures count for a great deal.

All of you: Ugh. Fine. But it does do that annoying random combat thing, doesn’t it? I’ll be walking around and suddenly an enemy I couldn’t see will attack me and the music will get all excited while I’m getting all bored because I have to repeat the same fight again and again and again.

Well, yes, but the combat is really good fun. The interface looks like a standard JRPG type of thing, where you choose to attack, use an item special ability or flee. The key to Undertale is learning about your enemies though rather than just bashing them into bits. So you can look at them to see how they’re feeling or what they’re planning to do. Then you might want to cheer them up if they’re down in the dumps, or flirt with them if that seems appropriate. Combat is made up of two mini-games, essentially, and the first is in those choices of action, learning how to pacify, befriend, weaken or frighten an opponent.

The other mini-game is a tiny bullet hell shooter that takes place in a little box below the enemy portrait. I say ‘shooter’ but it’s a ‘dodger’ really. The enemy’s attack is shown as a series of projectiles and if you manage to avoid them for a few seconds, the round ends. If one hits, you lose HP. The beauty of the system is that the pattern of the attacks fits the personality and mood of the enemy, and it’ll change as you interact with them. On top of that sometimes the attacks aren’t attacks at all – they’re gags or messages that seamlessly fit into that little box as if they were intended to be something else entirely.

Also, there isn’t a great deal of random combat. You might find the first couple of areas a slog if you’re moving slowly and looking at everything but things calm down. Most areas of the game don’t punish you with invisible enemies every two seconds.

under5.jpg


All of you: Great. But is it supposed to be funny? Because I played the demo and the only bit that made me laugh was that one bit with the rock that was confused about being part of a puzzle. There’s nothing more awkward than something trying to be funny right up in my face when I am just not laughing at all. Makes me feel uncomfortable and nauseous.

I hear you. A few years ago I went to a friend of a friend’s stand-up show one time and nearly had to flee in embarrassment.

There were loads of lines in Undertale’s demo that made me chuckle but it’s more likely to make you smile than laugh out loud. Its the kind of humour that you chew on, grinning all the while. The tone does change a few times though, targeting different parts of the funny-bone. While the early game has a tendency to poke fun at RPG mechanics, the later humour is more character-based with a smattering of (intentionally) groan-worthy puns and one-liners.

I made note of the fact that Undertale’s world is one in which characters are often trying to be funny rather than one in which everyone just so happens to be stoically witty at all times. People tell jokes or amusing anecdotes because they hope it’ll make them more acceptable. Everybody wants a friend, or a family.

All of you: Bloody hell. It sounds a bit worthy, this Undertale. Is it going to make me have what the kids call ‘the feels’? Because I’m telling you now, I cannot be arsed with that sort of rubbish. I’m not crying because a pixel is lonely.

If you don’t cry, you don’t have a soul. No, but seriously, Undertale is not a tear-jerker as such. And I’m not even sure any of us have souls or what a soul is (maybe just little unhappy ghosts that are trapped inside us?)

Remember To The Moon? You probably avoided that one as well but if you did play it you could fairly point out that it was emotionally manipulative – there are a couple of scenes in there that practically attach wild horses to your ducts and have them jerk the tears out of you.

Nowt wrong with that. I love having my emotions manipulated every once in a while. Undertale does something far more subtle though; its most devastating moments aren’t simply scripted events, you work toward them through your actions. They’re still these wonderfully written moments of shocking clarity and sadness but they wouldn’t even be happening if you hadn’t made certain choices – or, more insidious still, played the entire game with a different mindset.

Point being, Undertale might well make hit you somewhere between ‘openly sobbing’ and ‘pretending it’s just dust’, but it’ll never do so at the expense of telling this one weird funny strange interactive story that you’re caught up in.

undertale4.jpg


All of you: What if – and stick with me here – what if I have no interest in RPGs, adventure games, retro games, nerd humour or fantasy dungeons and dragons bollocks.

First of all, it’s really weird that you’re even a voice on this website if you don’t like any of those things. But here’s the thing: Undertale is brilliant because it is its own thing. It’s a beautifully absurd comic story that has as much to do with old RPGs as Don Quixote as to do with chivalric Romance stories. That’s to say it’s shot through with the texture of those things and the more you know about them, the more you’ll get out of some of the particulars. But if you’re clueless? There are still plenty of jokes about poop, class, bravado, misadventure and odd couple relationships. And that goes for Don Quixote AND Undertale, I think. I’d have to double-check on the whole poop thing.

You can pick up Don Quixote and enjoy it even if you’re not familiar with the historical moment or works in the genre that it’s satirising. In the same way, Undertale might seem off-putting in those opening scenes when it’s deconstructing itself and poking you in the ribs to point out how droll that is, but there’s much more to the game than that. It thrives thanks to its allusions but is capable of surviving them.

Look, even if you hate everything else it’s actually impossible to dislike the music. And the whole thing is the perfect length to fit as a side course between main meals. Just don’t be surprised if you go back for a second helping, or find yourself thinking about it far more often than whatever 60 hour epic you’re burrowing through.

All of you: Someone told me it’s scary. Surely not?

There’s this flower, see…

I did find some of the events and implications deeply unnerving but it doesn’t pull an Eversion.

All of you: OK. Fine. But I won’t get it unless I’ve played that old Nintendo game about a sad boy with a fat head, will I?

If you mean Earthbound, don’t worry about it. I haven’t played Earthbound either. In fact, I’ve played the first half hour about twenty times but find it really boring and just find myself wondering if it’ll ever become interesting.

Oh god. Someone’s going to have to write one of these for me, about Earthbound aren’t they? It is the only way.
 

LeStryfe79

President Spartacus
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
"RPGCodex is far more than nostalgia and knowing jokes. It's a tragicomic masterpiece"

Fixed...Volourn style.
 

rrc2soft

Educated
Patron
Joined
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Messages
44
Serpent in the Staglands Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
(Decent) Interview with Toby Fox:


- Talks about his inspirations (Internet jokes, SNES JRPGs).
- Hints that Undertale might be ported to consoles (but not nintendo).
- Hints about his second game.
 

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,203
I haven't found orquestral music yet, but this Jazz adaptation of Ghost Battle is quite cool IMO:

 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
Just got true ending last night. Game is so gud. Probably the goty 2015 to be quite honest codex.
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
I don't think the meta/"deconstructive" shit is all that good, interesting, or important. I think it's even misplaced and stupid, really.

Alternatively, I think people are placing too much emphasis on the 'meta' stuff. It's not meant to have a deep meaning; it's just a fun, quirky explanation for some of the game's mechanics. It also allows for some pretty great moments like Flowey taunting you if you kill Toriel, then quickly reset and spare her, and the game begging you to not reset after you've gotten the true ending. It's much more in-line with Earthbound in that the 4th wall breaks are more for fun and flavor - versus MGS2 where the meta aspect is actually meant to be taken very seriously.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,016
I'd agree with that. While I think there is something legitimate to calling out the player for simply resetting the game if things go awry, it was just a minor support of the overall theme of accepting consequences of your decisions and generally bashing the genre (or even just games in general) for their incredibly artificial approach to enemies and gameplay. The Super Bunnyhop guy did part of an episode on this and made a great point about how unlike other games with non-lethal playthroughs, this one isn't some sort of additional mechanic, and it's not a dedicated mechanic either. There are multiple ways of ending combat without killing people. You can just run away; you can injure them until they surrender, even amongst the 'dialogue' type options, you can often choose multiple methods like demoralizing or befriending them. And by the same token, those dialogue options aren't just for non-lethal runs- you can weaken enemies with dialogue and then finish them off as well. This is pretty different from stuff like Deus Ex/MGS having specific alternate combat moves just to be non-lethal while doing the exact same shit otherwise. It's more in line with the mechanics of something like Fallout where you can stealth or bullshit your way through or around situations- you don't need to beat up enemies with your non-lethal wiffle bat instead of the lethal weapon. It makes the pacifist run feel very much like a natural, reasonable option instead of one shoehorned in to sell a bullet point.
 

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,203
So, you wanted more orchestral music? Lurking inside the SA forums wasn't that bad this time. Here it is anyway:

Man, the Internet REALLY loves this game, for good and bad.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
After not watching the credits for two weeks I finally did, and now I feel sad it's over. I'm such a sentimental person. I hate reading the last page in a book or watching the last episode of a good show. I am so afraid of losing touch with those characters whose little world I got to share for just a little while.

What a game.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Moo?
Probably my favorite piece of Undertale fan art. Had to split it into several pieces, seeing as I don't remember where I got it and it comes out distorted otherwise.


Conversation can get a bit awkward when both sides know this isn't everyone's first shindig.


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