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Which RPG genre conventions would you change if making your dream game?

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,010
If you're an ancillary character, you're not making any decisions for the party. You're basically asking for a version of say, Planescape Torment, where you play as Morte and just watch the game unfold based on whatever the developer decided are the canon choices for TNO to make. How could this possibly be a good thing?
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If you're an ancillary character, you're not making any decisions for the party. You're basically asking for a version of say, Planescape Torment, where you play as Morte and just watch the game unfold based on whatever the developer decided are the canon choices for TNO to make. How could this possibly be a good thing?

You could still influence the MC's decisions. Might be interesting, especially for many in the codex sperg brigade who aren't comfortable playing anything other than bottom bitch (no offense inteded to the VD school of RPG design).
 

Avellion

Erudite
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Messages
756
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This forum
Me and a friend was theorycrafting about this the other day. Here is more or less what we came up with.

Classes: More diverse in every way. A problem I have with modern RPGs is that the characters are increasingly homogenized. Thief and Warrior often fall into light vs heavy armor, and archery vs magic often falls down into if you want fireballs or arrows. But merely making them more diverse in combat isnt enough. I want classes to be able to approach problems differently. A thief cannot fight as well as a fighter. But a thief can contribute by brewing up a poison to poison the well, turn the traps against the users, steal and avoid the conflict all together, unlock new paths to avoid the heavily guarded front door. And so on, a cleric can call upon the powers of their god, provided of course, that the god is for the deed (Why a god would smite his own loyal followers is beyond me).

Races: Differentiate races more. In a world where the difference between races mostly just comes down to slightly different starting stats (+1 strength, ect) or flat out make races only cosmetic, one of the most fun things I did in an RPG as of late was to create a homebrew race for 5e where I would have debilating effects, but at the same time, I also had a bunch of GM approved abilities, that would allow me to tackle races in an entirely different way. The same should apply to cRPGs, make races differ in more than just +1 strength vs +1 intelligence. A Dwarf will fit in better and be more trusted by his fellow dwarves than an elf. Funny, for all the dwarf-elf racism out there. A dwarf PC has the EXACT same opportunities in most RPGs as an elf in a dwarven society. Let the settings be more intricate, and rough. And let this affect gameplay too.

Dialogue: Instead of dialogue being overly linear with selecting the obvious, highlighted dialogue option. Let players actually read through the dialogue, that is to say. Letting players find contradictions, present evidence when necessary, and bring back a keyword system, which can supplement the dialogue tree. Click on certain words in the text to bring up appropriote responses to it. Dialogue options will also depend on your intelligence, your reputations, your equipment, disposition what the NPC does and doesnt know. Use flags to determine what the NPC knows and doesnt know, presenting evidence flags appropriote fields. Sometimes, letting an NPC know too much can be dangerous. And can bite you in the ass.

Character Creation: Assign attribtues in a 5 star rating. Make every point impactful. A character with one strength would struggle to swing even an arming sword with 1 arm. A character with 5 would be able to hold a select few 2h weapons in one hand with a minor penalty. Let players assign weaknesses, and traits. Traits should avoid being gamey or boring +1 bonuses and more along the lines of say... ambidexterity, heat tolerant, psychopathic and so on. These traits and weaknesses can also affect dialogue and possibly even quest solutions if opportunities arise for them.

Combat: Turn Based. I want to see something more punishing. Me and a friend were theorizing about a system, which would add permanent injuries combined with a traditional HP system. With basically a character's guard vs the opponents attack, if the guard surpasses the attack, a hit is made and a miss will cumilatively lower the guard of that opponent. Hits will target various organs on the body and injuries can be permanent. Attack and guard are determined by a large variety of factors, such as weapon usage, positioning, who has high ground, facing, present injuries, stances, magic effects, equipment and current actions. A character trying to run past you will leave himself very open. And even a low level opponent could potentially thrust a spear into any of his vital organs. Let players be punished if they do something very untactical.

Power curve: Avoid players from becoming unkillable gods halfway through the game. And make even low level enemies threatening. A power curve somewhat resembling a logarithm curve would be great. Where the greatest gains are early on.

Items: Hand Placed (non of this random loot crap). Improve emphasis on consumables, and minimize the imortance of boring +1 strength armor sets. Instead emphasizing weapons that either provide new abilities and/or interesting special effects. And while I am at it, where did the cursed items and hell even items with negative effects on them go? Punishing players, for doing something stupid.

Resources: Make time a resource (this doesnt necessarily have to be through time limits), add resource attrition, and put systems in place to prevent players from not ever having to worry about long term resource management. How about legendary weapons, that are unrepairable, and when they break, that is it for them. Lower carrying capacity overall as well, making players only bring back home only what they would need to sell, as opposed to every single item that isnt glued down. Find ways to limit healing, and restoration.

Story: How about a story where the player isnt the chosen one. Make grander scale plots more political, as opposed to the return of the demon king. Playing more important roles is fine too. But why does someone go from a peasant to a legendary hero in the span of a week.

Romances: I would rather have them out. But if they have to be in the game, make them thematically appropriate and perhaps even have gameplay consequences. Rather than just shitty fan service.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
You are pretty much always hostage to the plot. Nothing you've said so far doesn't in some small part also apply to any other narrative function or structure.
Fair enough, but at the very least when you are the protagonist, not being able to escape it is only natural.

I think you're just obsessively against this with blinders on. For example, you said this
Have seen it done before countless times, especially on the table, its shit no matter how you twist it.


So a pointless story-arc with a fruitless ending is okay if you were the Mary Sue of the story
You are not the mary sue of the story, the story is about you, simple as that.

but a fulfilling story-arc with a sound ending isn't, because you weren't the sole focus of the world? Am I reading that right?
Reading it wrong, you aer confusing being the protagonist with being the focus. The protagonist is the one whose story is being told, the focus of the world means the world revolves around him. Two completely different things.
A story can be about a guy going from A to B and if you are that guy im ok with that, if you are just a witness or his best friend, then its shit, i dont care if you are his friend and the president of the world.

Nothing about being an ancillary character makes you any less of a protagonist, makes your goals any less worthy
Yes it does, dude, if you are an ancillary character you cannot be the protagonist of the story, and it does make your goals less worthy, it makes them insignificant to the story.

and makes the story any more shit than any other just by being how it is.
Sure it does.

It's fucking dumb, dude, to think this way. It's a narrative technique, nothing else.
No it isnt, games like loren the amazon princess put you in the shoes of a secondary character and its crap. And its especially crap you arent the driving force, but a secondary character thats there to witness how things move.

You can still have good gameplay, good characters, and a good story.
And they all suffer because you arent the protagonist.

All it does is disassociate players from being the Mary Sue Peasant Blacksmith-turned-Deity Killer that plagues so many games.
Are you fucking stupid mate? how does being the protagonist makes you a mary sue? how does one thing even remotely relates to the other?

You took my 'Super Mario' as some literal example. Super Mario is a fucking platformer with zero story.
Up to the super mario, would argue that super mario rpg has better writing than many of your favorite rpgs.

Not what I want in my RPGs, and not what I look to for good narrative design.
Ah, a clueless storyfag, at last your roots reveal themselves.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
I think people are speaking past each other with regards to the "ancillary character" business. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say what the "AC" people want already exists in Final Fantasy Tactics.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,684
Lhynn said:
A story can be about a guy going from A to B and if you are that guy im ok with that

Cool. A secondary character can do this. I don't know what else to say here :lol:
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
Cool. A secondary character can do this. I don't know what else to say here :lol:
A secondary character can go from A to B, while the plot happens somewhere else, or when hes accompanied by the main character, and only providing support.
In both cases the result is the same, crap.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,010
I mean, that's just not what the terms mean. Ramza was clearly the protagonist of the game. He wasn't the most powerful (at least not canonically, mechanically otoh...) and got forgotten by history, but he sure as hell wasn't ancillary.

I mean, what would playing a supporting character even entail? It'd be like playing an MMO and only doing whatever your higher leveled friend tells you to do and never playing alone.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
I mean, what would playing a supporting character even entail? It'd be like playing an MMO and only doing whatever your higher leveled friend tells you to do and never playing alone.
It would entail mostly playing a character thats a witness of events and that is often forgotten by the games plot, as other characters drive it. Its done often in budget Jrpgs with silent protagonists.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,010
I tried thinking of games that fit that bill and what actually came to mind were a bunch of the recent (well, recent being the last decade or so) FF games. Though they don't have silent characters and you arguably aren't playing as any single one of them, hence the loose grasp on the plot any particular character has. Like you could just cut Tidus right out of FFX and the game would carry on just fine without him. He's not especially powerful and the party is not connected through him but through Yuna. And dear god did it make the story so much worse than it had to be. Would have been ten times better with Yuna as the main character.

I feel like silent protagonists actually have a pretty solid track record in jrpgs. Characters like Crono and Ryu would be the most well known and are certainly central to their stories. If anything these are the games that tend to try and give the player more agency- the character is silent for the sake of self-inserting to the story, after all.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
4,198
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
I also dislike how skills are often easily raised but it's super-hard to raise main attributes. While raising IQ is pretty hard raising your strength requires only practice. In fact I have hard time imagining how someone could become a master swordsman without getting stronger or more agile in the process.
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
On the subject of protagonist not taking a primary role: Something similar happened in one of my old pen and paper campaigns, our Paladin Ironheart was who the campaign was centred around as he had royal (angelic) blood and was a claimant for the throne, now our Thief Owyn was the one facilitating his rise to power, whether he knew it or not. Through persuasion, framing, killings or what not the sneaky bastard manipulated his friend into doing what he wanted almost every time. It helped that the players had known each other for years, and the Paladin playing lad was a straightforward bloke, while the Thief player was an older clever bastard, but it still took a lot of work from him and me, as well as private play sessions unknown to the rest of the group.

Eventually Owyn got Ironheart's arse on the throne, and was promoted to a position as counsellor, and that was where the campaign ended as these were high level characters and this was the last adventure they'd undertake. Now whether such an adventure would be possible in a CRPG, or enjoyable is another thing, might be an interesting experiment.

If you failed to successfully manipulate the "supposed" main character in a CRPG, then it'd mean taking a damn lot of control away from the player. And I for one don't like that, Bioware games are shit for just this reason.
 
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DefJam101

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
8,047
Location
Cybernegro HQ
Loot-focused economies in games that take place over a long period of time bother me the most. I like RPGs where the player characters have expenses beyond buying new weapons and armor — things like food, clothing, camping equipment, magical potions, antidotes, medical services, transportation fares, etc. When parties of adventurers have to worry about normal people shit like paying the innkeeper they don't inexplicably own top-of-the-line masterwork equipment after one week on the road.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
8,071
You could still influence the MC's decisions. Might be interesting, especially for many in the codex sperg brigade who aren't comfortable playing anything other than bottom bitch (no offense inteded to the VD school of RPG design).

Would work with a game where you play a mentor type to an heir apparent and mold them as a character. Have the plot resolve around things that test you as a person and explain why you'd act to things that would explain why a king would make you his sons mentor.
 

Higher Animal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
1,854
-Adventurefaggot hardcore mode - Difficult Travel, no quest markers, time based failure/success, required memorization of names/dates/details. The sorts of things pussies in magazines and forums have whined about so we no longer have them in any mainstream games.

-Lack of wisdom/lore leading to not understanding certain NPCs due to language barrier, or only having access to certain information. Illiteracy being a viable character trait that misses key information in scrolls.

-Hidden game mechanics only discovered through intuition, logic, trial and error, lore, or chance.

-Physical attractiveness and size mattering in game lore and gameplay.

-Viable coward playthroughs

-Dynamic PVE or grinding system that battles the player in a logical way, creating its own dynamic quest solutions. For example, killing too much of bandit X faction results in Bandit X faction sending in larger numbers or setting up ambushes. Maybe bandit x faction only attempts to steal loot and run away. Maybe bandit x leader can be found and negotiated with. I consider the PVE grinding different from story based combat encounters, most "main" dungeons, towns, special encounters. Like the main-map WL2 encounters versus the encounters inside actual cities.

-Women portrayed as whores, temptresses, religious fanatics of every persuasion, and machiavellian social climbers. No more damsels in distress or oppressed mass nonsense.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
I tried thinking of games that fit that bill and what actually came to mind were a bunch of the recent (well, recent being the last decade or so) FF games. Though they don't have silent characters and you arguably aren't playing as any single one of them, hence the loose grasp on the plot any particular character has. Like you could just cut Tidus right out of FFX and the game would carry on just fine without him. He's not especially powerful and the party is not connected through him but through Yuna. And dear god did it make the story so much worse than it had to be. Would have been ten times better with Yuna as the main character.

I feel like silent protagonists actually have a pretty solid track record in jrpgs. Characters like Crono and Ryu would be the most well known and are certainly central to their stories. If anything these are the games that tend to try and give the player more agency- the character is silent for the sake of self-inserting to the story, after all.
I feel like a lot of assumptions are being made that I'm not comfortable making about the meaning of the terms. If the player character is attached to a party over which he has no control, I think I'd tend to agree that it sounds like shit, though.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
One of my pet hates is Resting to Fully Heal & Non-restrictive Resting, especially in RPGs that focus on overall dungeon strategy using Vancian magic and limited-use-per-day abilities and items.

What's the point of strategizing a dungeon when, after every pathetically weak encounter, the party may completely heal and have their resources replenished with a single button click? The swagger of elitists who consider their RPGs hardcore is blush-worthy!

As a rule, devs seem unable or unwilling to tailor itemization & encounters around the concept of strict resting rules, preferring to burden players seeking a reasonable challenge with self-imposed restrictions, and that's just a cop-out.
 

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