Age of Decadence Released

[Shadenuat]

Every single fucking shit had [impersonate] that I'd never raised, because apparently it's a core fucking skill for an assassin, and basically little to no alternative to it other than [reach for your guns]

You know I think almost every old RPG people love basically forces you to be competent at combat and only uses other skills as some alternative ways of solving things - and not that often. What's stopping you from fucking shit up with your dagger when you need it like you did in Fallout/Arcanum/PST/Bloodlines etc.?
At least AoD doesn't have a lot of filler (if it even has any) so you can just re-roll until you feel satisfied at how your character concept fairs.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Your problem (for the lack of a better word) is that you're imagining an awesome assassin and then trying to recreate him in the game, regardless of the actual design. As a result you're spreading your points way too thin. In the game the assassins aren't the sneaking around, door-lockpicking types, and the first 3 quests show that. Why expect the second city to be any different?

Are you drunk? Literally the very first assassin vignette in the game is exactly that kind of ridiculous 'Awesome Assassin'. You enter a guy's hotel room by climbing a rope through a window, shoot him dead and then actually ->throw your fucking crossbow at his bodyguard to distract him and stab him with an arrow legolas-style<-

This is almost exactly how I envisioned my dude to act later, and given the first mission looking like this, I was certain that I could proceed like this. The Teron palace infiltration also looked like the build was viable.

But after Teron it all fell flat on its face, and while I could still go by in Maadoran at least using some of my skills (and it was still gud back then), when I got to Ganezzar, it suddenly felt like I'd started a completely different class's playthrough. Probably my "favourite" part of the Ganezzar questline is finally getting to poison some dude's (the Legatus's) wine. But what does the check require next to alchemy? STEAL! Because 'steal' is exactly the sort of thing that comes to my mind immediately when I think of an assassin. Maybe I should have dumped all my points in trading to unlock cheesy one-liners such as 'killing is my business and business is good'.

Also, I'm not 'spreading my points too thin'. I was consistenly raising sneak + streetwise and then added some alchemy and lockpick on top. The issue was not spreading those points too thin because I could pass just about all the checks I came across that used those. The issue was spreading them into categories that were simply not fukkin used and then getting trolled by the omnipresent [impersonate] checks.

Roxor, I understand that you don't like the game - never did, never going to

You are wrong. Despite some cheap trollage, I had a lot of fun up until Ganezzar.

Why make shit up though? It's not enough to say you don't like the design and explain why?

I'm not making shit up, I'm saying this as I see it in game. After Teron, I think the only lockpick check I could find was a box in the Maadoran sewer. And for alchemy I haven't found any actual use beyond combat except for getting into the house of that sick guy in Ganezzar. Oh, you can use it to poison the aurelian outpost. Okay, but the alternative is just buying rat poison for 5 gold, so that's pretty banal. Blowing up the hangar door needs crafting. Spiking the legatus's wine needs steal. I don't think I've seen another check at all. So either I'm so extremely unlucky that for some reason I just don't run into all those checks for skills that I'm supposed to meet or there's something not quite right with the game.

You don't have to have Crafting to open that door. Ironically (and you better sit down for this one), you can open it with ... Lockpicking. Cause it opens doors. Who knew, right?

And see, this is just another problem, it's the same as the people saying the Thief questline in Ganezzar is bonkers. If, after Teron, I find a single lockpick 4 check in the entirety of Maadoran, and then I don't find any of it in Ganezzar, I think it is be pretty safe to assume for me that taking lockpick was a mistake and I should not raise it. So after running around with lockpick 4 for 80% of the game and never needing more of it, I finally get to the hangar where it turns out how much exactly is needed? 7? More?

It also has uses in Hellgate, but only if, trololo, I have lorecrafting to disable those generators or whatever the fuck they are behind those locked doors.

As for the Hellgate bomb, it's one of 4 different ways to get past the constructs. We put it there when the crafters complained they couldn't do it. Anyway...

I got past the constructs by having the loremeister craft me an IFF system, so that's not the core of the deal. The issue is for me, as the player who cannot read your mind and deduce that the bomb is only there to get past the constructs, that I run around with high alchemy and a backpack full of bombs, I find some cool new bomb thinking I'll have another panic button to play with and I can do jackshit about it because MUH LORECRAFTING.

You must unlearn what you have learned. Assassins are just killers. Core skills are 1 weapon skill, 1 defense skill and critical strike. The rest is flavor.

I have plenty of those on top of the other stuff. I think the current 140 or something body count that I have is overall a pretty good result for a playthrough this doomed.

 

[J_C]

You have nerves of steel VD. I would have sent these idiots to hell already in a Codexian manner.

 

[Darth Roxor]

but is aod better than broken age

 

[Junmarko]

Vince, when you guys were saying that you plan to improve the thief play through, do you mean you plan to add stealth mechanics, or just more dialogue option skill checks? (Not complaining, just curious)

Also, what did you think of Invisible Inc, and the approach to turn based stealth Klei took?

 

[Shin]

It's probably because of the drugs, but I have a vague memory that at one point in development different characters would start at different locations? Or was this a different game..

 

[Lord Andre]

Oh come on Roxor, if the game kept throwing you only the skill checks that you were expecting, what would be their point ? Handling the curve balls is part of the challenge and besides isn't it important that the checks make sense in context ? Your character made it all the way to the end game but there were some things you couldn't do perfectly. Boo-hoo.

In Fallout 1, when you try to convince the master to stop, but you can't pass the checks and have to fight, does that mean the game sucks ?

 

[hivemind]

I actually agree with Roxor about some things.

The steal check in legatus' tent is retarded and could just be replaced by a dex check because IIRC there is literally no other steal check in AG questline
The hellgate HP loss honestly just seems kinda arbitrary but I don't mind it too much
However hiding the generators behind lockpick and then requiring lore+crafting is silly, I assume that the lockpick doors were added to give more viability to the skill or something but I think that you might as well have made it so to turn of the lasers you needed EITHER lore+crafting OR lockpick

I don't get the complaint about impersonate checks tho, impersonate seems exactly like the thing an Assassin would use when trying to get into a restricted area to take out a high value target
I guess similar logic could be used for sneak but idk it never bothered me much

but the alternative is just buying rat poison for 5 gold,

doesn't the alch check there do more dmg to the Aurelians than the rat poison ?
not 100% sure but I think it should

You enter a guy's hotel room by climbing a rope through a window, shoot him dead and then actually ->throw your fucking crossbow at his bodyguard to distract him and stab him with an arrow legolas-style<-

But that doesn't involve sneaking at all ?
Like the choices in the vignette are [crit+dex](which is checked a few more times in the questline), [persuasion](which is checked at least once or twice + several impersonate checks) or [fight].

So if you are going to be basing your perception of what the questline is going to look like later in the game on the vignette you can safely assume that you are going to be required to either crit someone, use your talky skills to make a fight easier/avoid a fight, or just savagely fight it out.

 

[anus_pounder]

Can I just chime in here and ask where the game checks for loyalty, prestige and combat? I know how to lose one whole point of loyalty and go to -1, but I don't think I've ever EARNED a point of loyalty or had it checked at all.

 

[hivemind]

Can I just chime in here and ask where the game checks for loyalty, prestige and combat? I know how to lose one whole point of loyalty and go to -1, but I don't think I've ever EARNED a point of loyalty or had it checked at all.

It doesn't and that's a pity.
The only reputations that are checked are the faction ones and bodycount and word of honour once or twice.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Also, allow me to come back to one more thing

In the game the assassins aren't the sneaking around, door-lockpicking types, and the first 3 quests show that. Why expect the second city to be any different?

[Streetwise] Your story doesn't add up, Vince... if that is your real name.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I see how one can be lead astray by this, in AoD terms you're imagined char sounds more like a thief. The actual AoD assassin always struck me more as a critical strike combatant with alchemy. or something.

That tiefling that turns into a big, fat, ugly demon and rapes with a BAB and strength of a million.

cleric spell lvl 7 Word of Faith, no save, nuff said

 

[J_C]

but is aod better than broken age

It is a better RPG than Broken Age.

 

[Lurker King]

It doesn't and that's a pity.
The only reputations that are checked are the faction ones and bodycount and word of honour once or twice.

These checks are un-developed. The loyalty thing was not well-thought-out too. It is equivalente to the word of honour for people you work for. It should be just word of honour and more present.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Womyn should have easy seduction Assassination mode it would rile the SJW crowd and as added bonus give Vince free publicity and sales . Speaking about womyn its strange how the same playing as is in this game as compared to Fallouts or Arcanum especially when setting was advertised as realistic and Historically not Politically Correct.... Is Vince got L1beral or simply chicked out in meantime? The True Patriot fans want to know.

 

[Lurker King]

DEX and PER were pretty useful all around, no complaints here. Sneak is for the most part pretty useful in Teron and the surrounding countryside. But after that, you can just about forget about it. Lockpick? It's a trap. A total fucking trap. There are maybe 3 or 4 uses you'll ever come across as an assassin for it, and none of them are related to sneaky infiltration. Alchemy? Gahahahaha. It gets checked in dialogue... twice? In the whole game? Even though you can brew acids, carry around a bag of bombs, liquid fires and poisons, you can stick all of those up your ass because it won't matter for shit. And that one moment when you can actually blow up a door using alchemy, guess again, you need crafting for that shit. Streetwise is 50/50 because you'll be surprised just how many times that shit is paired with impersonate or persuade.

You know which game makes all your skills worth it? Pillars of Fucking Eternity. Hey VD, you need to make this game more balanced for Roxor!

 

[Darth Roxor]

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also, allow me to come back to one more thing

Spoiler

Your story doesn't add up, Vince... if that is your real name.

Those who served the Emperor had very little in common with those hired from the street "today".

 

[Saark]

The boatmen certainly aren't like they used to be, the issue might be that there is little to no indication that this is the case when starting the game. The introduction isn't telling the full story here. It speaks of becoming an independant outlet for semi-openly accepting requests to assassination (kind of reminiscent of the Morag Tong), but it seems like they have to claw for survival everywhere by sticking to the local lords. Which in turn explains them having to rely more on talky skills than sneaky ones, but again this is something that isn't really explained early on.

Neleos does not tell you who ordered the hit on Carrinas as an assassin if I recall, so there is no foreshadowing as to what situation the boatmen might be in and what skills might be required. The only exposition you get in terms of telling you that the boatmen aren't the stealthy type of assassins is a couple of mandatory fights and the NPC character descriptions.
Neleos is in reality bowing to the pressure of Antidas, he may have told the commercium to fuck off after they try to take care off Carrinas but it doesn't really matter in the end. The boatmen are being thrown in the middle of a local conflict, having to choose sides with absolutely nothing to gain themselves. They take the fall for a conflict Carrinas initiated and that escalates because the commercium are a bunch of jews.
After basically fucking up royally in Teron you are thrown into a conflict thats already mid-escalation in Maadoran. The only thing you can do here is keep the status quo by meddling with the local lords and guild leaders. If you want to stray from your orders you will need "talky" skills all of a sudden, something that wasn't really required in Teron (unless you count the impersonate option in the inn and the persuasion check with the third spy), not to mention that "talking" wasn't really an option if you stayed with the guild.
In Ganezzar you then suddenly need a bunch of combat skills and stats for the faelan fight, alchemy/steal for the legate and at least in my playthrough combat was the only solution to dealing with Hamza.

So it is kind of understandable where Roxor is coming from. I played a loremaster and a trader so far, and both of them have similar skill progression throughout the cities requiring more points in the same skills as the game goes on, whereas assassins seem to be all over the place. Gameplay wise this is kind of odd, story-wise I totally get it. Being an assassin should require either combat or some sort of non-combat but still lethal option but what this non-combat option is depends entirely on the target. Killing a whole camp of soldiers? Poison them. Kill a local well protected lord? Talk your way into getting a private audience. Assassinate a target during a meeting? Sneak your way into the meeting place and try to get out without a hitch. All of them can be done by just initiating combat aswell, but it's gonna be a rough fight and slaughter every time. You don't get to just kill your target and leave peacefully, Diaz already tells you that in the first couple of minutes into the game.


What personally bugs me about the boatmen is that their only option to survive is by sticking to Gaelius. The Teron chapter is screwed either way, the Ganezzar one doesn't exist to begin with and unless you want to be Gaelius lapdog you basically destroy the Maadoran one by yourself by first killing Darista and then killing Hamza in Ganezzar. None of the guildmasters seem to be able to protect their people. When I first came to Maadoran everyone is telling me how Darista does things differently and that the survival of the guild is more important to her than anything. But then the first quest involves sending her second in command into the lions den, sacrificing a bunch of people in the slums as a distraction and all of that for what? Some gold that Gaelius wants. There is no "we're doing things our way now". Theres only servitude or death and destruction. None of this concurs with the guilds introduction in the character creation.

 

[John Yossarian]

^^ Very well said. I killed Darista precisely because she was going agains guild traditions like Hamza said, but I haven't fought him yet (although learning that I'd probably have to is not really a spoiler). I hope there's an option to explain to him why I did it, but considering my Assassin can't even talk his way out jury duty, I see a knife fight in my future.

 

[Saark]

Sorry for spoiling. Technically Darista is going exactly according to guild tradition though, since the boatmen of old served the emperor as his private guard. I myself killed her because I didn't manage to find the second exit in Levirs hideout, and I gave him my word that if he would let us go with the gold I would kill someone for him - he asked me to kill Gaelius and since Darista was the only way to get to him she had to die aswell. Since from the get go she was a condescending hypocrite I had little reservation. I also planned on visiting Levir again since technically I only promised to kill one person for him while he asked for two, but that sadly doesn't seem to be an option.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Neleos is in reality bowing to the pressure of Antidas, he may have told the commercium to fuck off after they try to take care off Carrinas but it doesn't really matter in the end. The boatmen are being thrown in the middle of a local conflict, having to choose sides with absolutely nothing to gain themselves. They take the fall for a conflict Carrinas initiated and that escalates because the commercium are a bunch of jews.

Pretty much.

In Ganezzar you then suddenly need a bunch of combat skills and stats for the faelan fight, alchemy/steal for the legate and at least in my playthrough combat was the only solution to dealing with Hamza.

You can kill Faelan with via blind fight or by tripping on 'shrooms. You can kill the Legatus and his guards without alchemy/steal. You can side with Hamza if you didn't kill Darista.

You don't get to just kill your target and leave peacefully, Diaz already tells you that in the first couple of minutes into the game.

Yes.

What personally bugs me about the boatmen is that their only option to survive is by sticking to Gaelius.

It's the only option that makes sense. As I said to Roxor:

- You're told that the Ganezzar branch was wiped out and sent to Ganezzar to kill Meru.
- You discover that Varro survived by switching sides. Mind you, it's not that different from what Darista did. Basically, Antidas forces Neleos to kill Carrinas which ends the neutrality and forces both Darista and Varro to ally with their respective lords. Granted, Varro does it in a less diplomatic fashion, but it's not that different. They all do what they need to survive.
- Varro is still a guildmaster, so working for him is no different than working for Darista after Teron. Why should Varro give a fuck about what Darista wants? Each branch of the guild is fairly independent. Just because Darista sided with Gaelius doesn't mean that everyone should follow him. Even Hamza, her second-in-command, has doubts and you can turn him against her in the merchants questline.

Thus with the Teron chapter destroyed, the real options are Darista backed by Gaelius vs Varro backed by Meru.

When I first came to Maadoran everyone is telling me how Darista does things differently and that the survival of the guild is more important to her than anything.

People are often unreliable character witnesses.

But then the first quest involves sending her second in command into the lions den, sacrificing a bunch of people in the slums as a distraction and all of that for what? Some gold that Gaelius wants.

She did sacrifice a bunch of new recruits and she knew that Levir wouldn't touch Hamza. Technically, the guild IS important to her but the well-being of the guild is tied to keeping Gaelius' happy (not looking after rank and file).

There is no "we're doing things our way now". Theres only servitude or death and destruction. None of this concurs with the guilds introduction in the character creation.

Three different guild chapters, three different guildmasters, three different ways of doing business. Yet a good fighter will always be ok in the game, regardless of the leadership.

 

[Saark]

You can kill Faelan with via blind fight or by tripping on 'shrooms. You can kill the Legatus and his guards without alchemy/steal. You can side with Hamza if you didn't kill Darista.

I think the lack of options besides combat is what makes the AG questline feel somewhat different or weaker. I understand why, I'm just looking at what is before me. In the given examples you have the choice of resolving the situation by initiating a combat-encounter, the other one requires certain skill-checks - and those are all over the place for assassins. I personally don't mind, as I said it makes sense to me from a storytelling standpoint, it just doesn't feel as satisfying on the gameplay level compared to the other factions who oftentimes have multiple non-combat options to choose from.

I actually enjoyed that my particular character build enabled me to safely face pretty much any combat I choose to take (even beat the demon in zamedi without weakening it), while simultaneously offering me to take out some enemies with skill-checks. I wasn't the poison-using sneaky archetype, so I had to deal with those situations in the old-fashioned way, by sticking them with the pointy end. Since assassins are one of the few backgrounds that constantly have to choose between combat and skill-based resolutions that still end in someone dying, it obviously feels different to most of the other backgrounds (haven't played a mercenary or IG yet, so I cannot compare to those). Maybe assassins have the same amount of different options to resolve quests but since almost 50% of it is engaging in combat it just feels like they have less?

She did sacrifice a bunch of new recruits and she knew that Levir wouldn't touch Hamza. Technically, the guild IS important to her but the well-being of the guild is tied to keeping Gaelius' happy (not looking after rank and file).

Is it? If she knew Levir would not touch Hamza they seem to know and respect each other decently well (for guildmasters of a thieves and assassins guild anyway). She must have realized by now that all the other guilds/factions are conspiring to create a puppet-state with Serenas on the throne, if she is following Gaelius no matter what it is because she chooses to do so not because it is her only option. She just doesn't come across as stupid enough to not realize that.
I also hardly think the IG's leadership (Paullus?) would be able to convince Strabos/Levir to get rid of the boatmen after killing Gaelius if they decide to not stand in their way. Their whole agreement rests on them somewhat trusting each other to lead the city, if the boatmen would join them in their plan to regain their independance only to get killed off by Paullus as some sort of revenge-plot for what happened in Teron this whole alliance would fall apart. You cannot base a plan of this magnitude on some sort of trust only to selfishly kill off the party that willingly switched sides. Levir doesn't seem like the kind of guy who just kills off people for no apparent reason while Strabos could certainly use the expertise of the boatmen when it comes to business-matters. Having a frienly relationship with the boatmen might save him quite a bit of gold when trying to take out the competition.

This all rests on Darista actually realizing that she has a choice though, maybe she just did not.

Even Hamza, her second-in-command, has doubts and you can turn him against her in the merchants questline.

Which is exactly what I did during my merchant playthrough, it's just kind of odd that such a decision is left to the merchant. That's the second time the commercium plays the boatmen like a fiddle, after involving them in the Carrinas incident.

Three different guild chapters, three different guildmasters, three different ways of doing business.

In the end all of them did business the exact same way though. When threatened with a major crisis they all gave up the independance they used to have only to flock to the local lord, sacrificing large parts of the guild for it. Neleos sacrificed most of his men and there simply is no more boatmen in Teron. Darista would willingly sacrifice her men for some gold Gaelius wants and she would rather die before he does, and Varro watches his guild burn to the ground because of the change Meru went through. It still evokes a sour feeling that I cannot shake off. There may have been some middle ground between Darista/Gaelius vs Varro/Meru for the player.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Just finished my first playthrough. A couple of random comments.
- The story is awesome, as in "awesome", only with the thing in question being actually awesome.
- The next game should be crowd-funded in order to be finished sooner and have better graphics though Just no "romances" stretch goals please.
- For a moment I thought my build was busted, but then I discovered I have a way out, thanks to my strategy of conserving SP and waiting for actual checks before assigning points and trying out combat/skillcheck solutions. Whether or not to spend your SP immediately is up to you, and the game informs you that it's your choice.
- I don't get the complaints about certain builds being useless. Here is what my build looked like just before finishing the game:

Spoiler

Does this classify as a hybrid or specialized build? For my standards, it's pretty hybrid. I can't imagine what the "useless" builds would have to look like, but I think mine is pretty spread out as it is, and I did finish the game with it. So, the stories in the spirit of "you have to pretty much guess what the devs were thinkning" seem overblown to me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, the stories in the spirit of "you have to pretty much guess what the devs were thinkning" seem overblown to me.

Naturally. Make a logical character and you won't have any problems.