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starting nwn again due to MotB.. Need advice

Astromarine

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Jan 21, 2003
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as the topic says. I've never gotten too involved with D&D, especially 3rd edition, so I'm not too familiar with the feat and skill combinations that might or might not prove feasible at high levels. I started a Moradin cleric with earth and knowledge as domains, as my lame attempt to try to recreate a Warhammer runesmith. But then I looked over the prestige classes and there didn't seem to be anything worthwhile in that mold. Especially I "wasted" (did I?) some skill points into craft weapon and armor. Also, as my preferred weapon of Moradin was a warhammer (and I found it fitting :D) I bought martial prof as a feat, which is probably another waste. Only later, when I started failing speech skill checks, did I start wondering at how limited the choices are for your character, enough so that you can't really waste them at all.

Now, this is part of the reason I always disliked D&D (int based skill points might make sense, but not when a cleric also needs cha wis str and con) but if I want to get at the MotB goodness that people are talking about I have to live with it, but I want to make some kind of plan for the future. So can anyone help me with that? Even if I have to scrap that char, I'd rather make sure I can play all the way through the game in an enjoyable fashion. (I don't want to suffer my wife's fate, as she reached the last battle in BG2, saved after the point of no return on her only savegame slot, and realized that her party was completely useless against the last enemies. Pretty much making sure she'd never see the ending).

Of course, if there was some sort of mod that allowed me to start from after leaving the village that'd be great. Or any other way to avoid having to replay that whole tutorial again.

Also, this might be a bug or a feature, don't remember from my first attempt at the game. Is it impossible to talk and make speech checks with your henchmen?
 

cardtrick

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Astromarine said:
Especially I "wasted" (did I?) some skill points into craft weapon and armor

Not really a waste, especially since you're a cleric, so that if you pick up the magical crafting feat later you'll be able to create some badass enchantments (holy weapons kcik ass). However, if you do restart, then you would probably be best off spending your skill points on dialog skills and letting your henchmen be your crafters, because . . .

Also, this might be a bug or a feature, don't remember from my first attempt at the game. Is it impossible to talk and make speech checks with your henchmen?

Yeah, unfortunately that's the way it is. Only the main character can talk to NPCs directly and make skill checks.

Even if I have to scrap that char, I'd rather make sure I can play all the way through the game in an enjoyable fashion. (I don't want to suffer my wife's fate, as she reached the last battle in BG2, saved after the point of no return on her only savegame slot, and realized that her party was completely useless against the last enemies. Pretty much making sure she'd never see the ending).

You will not have problems with this. NWN2 is quite an easy game - not quite so much as NWN, but still easy. BG2 was much more difficult, and the fact that "bosses" often had complete immunities to many types of damage meant that it really was possible to get yourself in a position where you couldn't possibly win. (I kind of liked this, but that's neither here nor there.) NWN2 is not the same way. Any character is capable of completing the game.

However, if you do want a strong character, it seems like your choice isn't too bad. Clerics are always good choices in low-level D&D, although not quite so overpowering in the NWN/NWN2 OCs simply because of the practically endless supplies of magical loot and potions that can replicate many of a clerics' abilities.

If you really want a strong character, and don't want the fun of building your own, you can find a variety of pre-planned builds here.
 

Elhoim

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First of all, install Tony K AI mod. It makes a hell of a difference, along with hardcore difficulty or higher.

As for builds, check this FAQ:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin ... 2154/49094

I'm doing the Bruiser build and it's fucking amazing. Personally I disregarded the Use Magic Devices and focused in Diplomacy (when leveling as a Red Dragon Disciple) and Intimidate (when leveling as a fighter).
 

Marsal

Arcane
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Oct 2, 2006
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Easiest way to pick up conversation skills is to take a class that has them as class skills and take a feat called "able learner". This will allow you to spend only one point (instead of two) for cross-class skills. You could pick up a few lvls of rogue (1st lvl gives you (8+INT modifier)*4 skill points instead of (2+INT modifier)*4 with cleric at 1st lvl). But I don't think that would work with a dwarf, as their preferred class is fighter and you would suffer XP penalty later (you could alternate rogue and cleric lvls, but that's not very prudent). Human would be a good choice for this, but I guess you want to play a warhammer wielding dwarf, so that's out :)

You don't need much skill points for a cleric, though. Spellcraft, concentration and diplomacy. Make sure that your INT is 12 and it'll give you 3 points/lvl. Crafting is pretty much out, but your henchmen can help with that.

You could try fighter + dwarven defender combo. Favored soul is pretty nifty too, if you want to cast divine spells on the fly. Like a cleric version of sorcerer. It gives you proficency with your deitys weapon, so you could save a feat or two.

Also you could check the domains, maybe some of them give you dialog skills as class ones (I'm not sure). There are a couple of new ones in MotB.
 

Greatatlantic

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I might be able to help you better if I knew what a Warhammer Runesmith is (I know, heresy). Regardless, some suggestions.

Crafting, is best left to your henchmen. Well, some of your henchmen, anyways. Chances are you'll want all of your rogue's skills points going to rogue stuff, and your sorcerer probably doesn't have very many so what she does have will need to go to class critical things like concentrate. The Bard, on the other hand, unless you're desperate for more healing combined with minor buffs can make a great crafting chasis.

Dialogue checks. Rarely will your henchmen make dialogue checks for you (though I've seen the wizard do it once). So, yeah, if you want to be pesuady then chances are you want a high Charisma character with either bluff or diplomacy as a class skill. Another option might be to take a high intel character (wizard) and just throw your excess points into the appropriate skill. This isn't the most effecient approach.

Race: As you are a beginner, stay away from Level Adjusted Races. Actually, a LA of +1 isn't that bad, but +2 (like Drow) is seriously bad news. humans tend to be the favorite.

Class: You've already expressed interest in Clerics, which are considered one of the best classes out there (they combine fighting, spell casting, and healing for goodness sake). Now realize that just because a cleric has POTENTIAL to be good at losts of different things doesn't mean they should be good at everything. Pick a focus and stick with it. Notice I said focus, not focus to the inclusion of other elements. For example, a Cleric's charisma is of primary importance for Turning Dead. While the game still has plenty of undead, they are still a minority of enocunters and high level undead will always find a way to resist anyways. So don't worry to much about Charisma, 10 or 12 is fine. And don't go higher then 10 for Dex., you have heavy armor for your AC. Also, if you chose human then you can easily multi-class. Remember that just one level in something gives you all the perks. So, why not multi-class Cleric and figher? Or Cleric and Paladin if you're Lawful Good (though considering that this is the Codex thats doubtful)? That will give you martial feats. Notice how this is all being done with out prestiege classes? Heck, a straight 20 wizard is one of the most powerful builds in the game. Prestiege classes are more about RP then creating stronger builds (though Red Dragon Disciple ends up in every munchkin build, ever).
 

Jasede

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Elhoim said:
First of all, install Tony K AI mod. It makes a hell of a difference, along with hardcore difficulty or higher.

Why'd you recommend ways to make the game harder to someone who is not well-versed in D&D 3.5?

That said, congratulations, Astromarine. You picked a cleric, the single most powerful class there is in D&D 3.5, bar none. You can't possibly do anything wrong with a cleric, even if you pick useless feats. If you are going to melee (hell yes, unless you meet enemies that dispel, clerics are mayhap the best melee class when fully self-buffed) you'll want knockdown (Does NWN 2 have this?). That's it really.
 

Astromarine

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well, considering I'm preaching to heretics here, I might as well explain a bit better what I'm going for.

A runesmith in warhammer is two things: in the lore, he's the keeper of Dwarven religion and culture, and he's the guy crafting all the magic items. In the game itself, he's a pretty capable fighter that has no magic spells (unless he's attached to his Anvil Of Doom, which does neat stuff when struck) and A LOT of antimagic support. AFAIK there's no similar class in D&D. I went for the cleric mostly because he seemed the closest alternative, but now I think about it, it's not really it. Since people are telling me that I can basically finish NWN2 with anything (is that still true for MotB?) I'd wonder what malformed monstrosity of multiclassing you guys could find to fit this mold better.

Also: crafted stuff is worth it in the game then? If it isn't, might as well give up on the idea.
 

Texas Red

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Eh, druid seems to be the more powerful one in NWN 2. Consider their feat "Elephant hide" which add 7 to natural armor, making them more difficult to hit than a fighter in full plate. Plus an animal companion, which is really helpful, evocation spells and more druid-specific feats make them better, imo.
 

RK47

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Astromarine said:
well, considering I'm preaching to heretics here, I might as well explain a bit better what I'm going for.

A runesmith in warhammer is two things: in the lore, he's the keeper of Dwarven religion and culture, and he's the guy crafting all the magic items. In the game itself, he's a pretty capable fighter that has no magic spells (unless he's attached to his Anvil Of Doom, which does neat stuff when struck) and A LOT of antimagic support. AFAIK there's no similar class in D&D. I went for the cleric mostly because he seemed the closest alternative, but now I think about it, it's not really it. Since people are telling me that I can basically finish NWN2 with anything (is that still true for MotB?) I'd wonder what malformed monstrosity of multiclassing you guys could find to fit this mold better.

Also: crafted stuff is worth it in the game then? If it isn't, might as well give up on the idea.

Crafted stuff is worthwhile, if not for wear, it's for sale.
For a pretty capable fighter with no magic spells, well...you can't really find anything like that. But since you added A LOT OF antimagic support, just load up all the defensive cleric spells on your spell book, stick with 16 WIS while pumping everything to STR / CON there's your anti-magic dwarven Cleric / Warpriest that is capable of crafting and enchanting weapons.

Alternative would be a Pally since he's very close to god and possess a lot of Anti-Magic in form of aura and high saves based on his Charisma bonus. Just multiclass him with a fighter here and there for the desired weapon bonus. Craft wise, yes he can craft weapons no problems. But he may not be able to enchant it like a Cleric does. So I'll leave it to you to decide.
 

RK47

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The Walkin' Dude said:
Eh, druid seems to be the more powerful one in NWN 2. Consider their feat "Elephant hide" which add 7 to natural armor, making them more difficult to hit than a fighter in full plate. Plus an animal companion, which is really helpful, evocation spells and more druid-specific feats make them better, imo.

the difference lies with the quick-conversion feat that Cleric possess, making them able to pull a quick heal anytime without preparing it before hand.
 

Oarfish

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Druids are very powerful in MotB too. The epic pet dragons and the ability to transform into one is quite handy. You can easily walk the starting barrow and side levels without a single rest - damn hard with any other build.
 
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aweigh

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I'll give you an example of a buff-and-bruise Cleric that will serve you well regardless of what situation you throw at him. This is my "generic" build to test out the waters on any NWN2 module:

STR 16 (the build is designed as a buffer with sword-and-board, but he'll be meleeing)
DEX 12 (for that extra point of AC while wearing full-plate)
CON 10 (Earth domain will take care of this)
INT 12 (so you can earn 3 skill points per level)
WIS 16 (duh; obviously get it as high as possible throughout the game)
CHA 12 (mostly so that your Diplomacy has some chance of success)

On each level-up always pump your 3 skillpoints into concentration (to avoid being interrupted while casting a spell), diplomacy (the vast majority of speech checks are made with this), and spellcraft (every 5 ranks in this skill earns you an additional point of spell resistance).

As far as feats go, start out with Luck of Heroes (only available on 1st-level), and then go through Power Attack -> Cleave, Extended Spell -> Persistent Spell (this makes your low-to-midlevel buffs incredibly useful), Martial Weapon Proficiency (this is only so that you have a wider range of choice as far as armaments go, because there is a LOT of magical loot in NWN2); the rest pick as you see fit. Clerics don't really get all that many feats anyway.

Perhaps most important of all for this build choice are the 2 domains. Pick the Earth domain so that you have free Toughness (+1 HP per level-up, works retroactively), and access to the normally Arcane-only "Stoneskin" buff, which is one of the best damage-reduction buffs available. Second, choose the __* domain so that you have access to the normally Arcane-only "Premonition" buff, which is one of the best all-around defensive buffs available for any character. These 2 magnificent buffs, coupled with your Cleric's huge assortment of healing spells, de-buffs and holy buffs, will make you the de-facto de/buffer in your party/game.

This character can wear full-plate and has a Full BAB, which means he can go toe-to-toe with any enemy, even before using any of his AC-boosting buffs to make himself nigh-invulnerable. He can ressurect fallen party members at the drop of a hat and is also the only one with access to the best healing spells. He's also the man to go to when you need to remove a curse, a disease or any other sort of ailment. In short, Clerics are broken.

__* = I forgot the name of the domain. This is a new domain added by Obsidian in MotB that further broke-inifies Clerics by giving them access to "Premonition". Oh, and Meta? Obsidian also added another new domain which gives Clerics access to "Tenser's Transformation". Make of that what you will.
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
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Jasede said:
Elhoim said:
First of all, install Tony K AI mod. It makes a hell of a difference, along with hardcore difficulty or higher.

Why'd you recommend ways to make the game harder to someone who is not well-versed in D&D 3.5?

It does not make the game harder per se, but works wonder with your companions. You don't have to baby-sit them anymore.

It doesn't make enemies harder it makes them and your companions more intelligent.

Besides the game is awfully easy, even if you play using only "ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK!!!21!!" :)
 
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aweigh

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Yeah, it's harder. I'm playing MotB using Tony K's improved A.I. and the difficulty slider set to "Very Difficult", (the maximum), and my buff-and-bruise Cleric outlined above. I can honestly say the enemies use more intelligent attacks on you and aren't as afraid to do 1-hit kills, status effects (petrification, etc), de-buffs (though this is more thanks to Tony's mod), etc.
 

Texas Red

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Astromarine said:
druid? sun, trees, pixies, and all that malarkey? You guys ARE familiar with dwarves, right? ;)

Nobody says that dwarves cant be druids.
 

Shannow

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aweigh said:
This character can wear full-plate and has a Full BAB, which means he can go toe-to-toe with any enemy, even before using any of his AC-boosting buffs to make himself nigh-invulnerable. He can ressurect fallen party members at the drop of a hat and is also the only one with access to the best healing spells. He's also the man to go to when you need to remove a curse, a disease or any other sort of ailment. In short, Clerics are broken.
What exactly do you mean by "Full BAB"? I thought only fighters, pals, rangers and barbarians got that.

@Astromarine: Crafting is useful, but the game will spam you with so many powerful items that you might not bother with crafting. Since your companions can craft, but not talk (will hardly ever help you to manage a skill check), most people let their companions craft and put their own skill points into social skills. Of course you can play through the game with failing every diplomacy/bluff/etc skill check, so you don't NEED them.
Runecrafter sounds like cleric/fighter/dwarven defender.
 

Jasede

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Clerics only get 3/4 th of full BAB as far as I know. In any case that doesn't matter since all their buffs make them a far better, if feat-less fighter than a real fighter. They also have a spell that gives them an incredible AB bonus. Couple that with Darkfire and Bull's and your AB will be over 9000.
 

Greatatlantic

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You can "probably" finish NWN2 with anything depending on difficulty level, but then you'd be relying heavily on your companions.

As for an anti-magic character who doesn't cast spells but is still good in a fight? That sounds like a monk. At level 13 they recieve spell resistance. In the interim, they are the only class to recieve high Will, Fortitude, and Reflexive saving throws. That means magic does less damage to them. If you choose Grey Dwarf (LA:+2, so be careful) you'll also recieve a hodgepodge of bonuses to make you tougher against foes. Though traditionalist might think it inefficient, you could multi-class with divine champion to get the martial feats. Fighter works as well, just don't pick any other non-prestiege class to multi-class with, as thats when you get penalties.
 

Zomg

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Are there any mods that let you freely level up the NWN2 NPCs, like changing classes and so on? Probably a little unbalancing, but there are only a few NPCs I don't find irritating and I'd like to adapt them for a party.
 

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