Inactive [LP CYOA] Overlord

[treave]

treave, can Erdrick ask her more details about what's she planning to do once she arrives to wherever her destination is?

She'll not teleport over immediately and start laying waste to everything in sight with her full power, but will travel east and gather information on the way about these cloaked figures as well as the Demonic Weapons. She might try to find one for herself before coming into contact with them if it's feasible. She will also see if she can establish any connections within demon-ruled territories, if she finds any. Basically, not only is she going to hunt these beings, she is also scouting out the unknown lands for you at the same time. Going around Methuss with you has taught her a thing or two about traveling and she makes less of a mess if Erdrick is not involved.

 

[Nevill]

How is she so sure she can do things by herself considering she's going to unknown territory all alone?

It very well might be one of her 'I can do things by myself!' rants. Rin is a master of exuding confidence even when she does not have reality to back her up.

In all fairness, though, how do we get the idea that she needs to prove anyone anything out of her head? It does not seem to have done her much good thus far.

While I have nothing against her doing things on her own, it's her nearly running off with no prior warning that makes me think she has some other motives in mind, like being a Big Damn Hero who wards the danger off our village and saves the day. That's a dangerous mindset to have.

I mean, if she thought this a sound tactical decision, she could have spoken to us about it, no?

Plus, I have not yet abandoned hope to fix that attitude of hers:

If Rin feels like an outsider, then that's her (not saying we shouldn't fix it, though)

I think it's just not a good moment for parting ways for something that can last an indefinite amount of time.

 

[lightbane]

She'll not teleport over immediately and start laying waste to everything in sight with her full power, but will travel east and gather information on the way about these cloaked figures as well as the Demonic Weapons. She might try to find one for herself before coming into contact with them if it's feasible. She will also see if she can establish any connections within demon-ruled territories, if she finds any.

Hm, she's certainly ambitious. Even then, if she does pull off that not only will we gather lots of knowledge about the world, but also she'll become way more powerful, potentially becoming stronger than us. On the other hand, letting her go will show her we trust her decisions, which will ensure she see us in a better light. Nevertheless, it's a hard choice.

However, if Fire Emblem has shown me anything, is that relying too much on your overpowered initial units is a bad move. Also, that royal families always suck (in one way or another). Therefore I'll give her a chance to prove herself. Although I would like for her to wait a little before leaving: between Erdrick, Zayan and Rin they could develop some sort of spell/magical artifact that allows long-range communication. That way she could keep us informed as she moves around. Later on she can use this spell/device to chat with whatever friends she makes in her adventure. Can we make this a C option?

EDIT: One example of what I'm talking about could be a set of two identical books with blank pages. Whatever is written in one book, it is copied on the other without further prompt. That would work as an incredibly secure and non-suspicious communication tool. It would be called "Copy Book" initially, although it might be renamed once Erdrick figures out a way to mass-produce a cheaper variation and take a profit from this device.

In all fairness, though, how do we get the idea that she needs to prove anyone anything out of her head? It does not seem to have done her much good thus far.

As dangerous as it sounds, letting her go now would make her believe we trust her, possibly decreasing this attitude a little. Of course, if she fails and then later on she wakes up to realize she had become the newest acquisition of Luna's royal harem, she'll curse her stupidity for not having told us earlier in order to make a better plan together. So in a way it's a win-win situation.

 

[Nevill]

As dangerous as it sounds, letting her go now would make her believe we trust her, possibly decreasing this attitude a little.

How about telling her without having her jumping through hoops to 'prove herself' as you put it? Letting her do so to make sure she doesn't need to sounds too Kunning to me.

And also, I don't particularly trust her, thank you for asking. It's not about betraying us, though it is up in the air if those voices wouldn't make her an offer she can't refuse (what happens if they offer her solution to her problem?). But that concern aside, just look at the language she uses.

“I can solve my own problems, and who knows how long that crazy bat will take? She’s also busy with other work for the village,” she says heatedly. “Anyway, no harm will come to me. They know of me and have been sending me harassing messages, but they have not uncovered where I am. Not yet. That much I can tell from my senses. Now that I’ve crossed blades with them twice, I already have the measure of their abilities. So, don’t worry."

First, it's not her problem, she just wants to make it hers and deal with it on her own. That's exactly the kind of attitude I am trying to rid her of.
Second, how much confidence does 'I crossed blades with them twice and got owned/tricked both times, do not worry, I'll be fine!' inspire?

Simply put, I think we would be able to get more out of her if we watch each others' backs - and if we can fix her messed up head at least a little in the meantime, that would be the greatest reward I could ask for.

 

[Kz3r0]

B.A.

 

[Kipeci]

Luckily for him, he has one of the foremost experts in matters of the heart at his service. Namely, you.

This is gonna be good.

A. “Women – all women – love great men, and a man’s greatness is in turn measured by the size and vigor of his love. Great men are called thusly because they possess a love so great that it cannot be contained, cannot be satisfied, by any lone woman. It is a love that is meant to be shared and spread. All you need to do is to demonstrate how great your love is and they will naturally come around.”

B. “It is fine to be just friends, but you are still young. Things will likely develop beyond your control whether you like it or not. With that in mind, act to construct a firm base for your relationships with them, whether you intend it to be platonic or not. Communication is paramount; clear up any misunderstandings you may have. I suggest that you start with Petze before approaching Tenia. She’s the easier of the two to handle.”

C. “You need to bed one of them immediately and whisper sweet nothings into their ear. That’ll eliminate one problem off the bat, and then you only need to focus on the other quickly, while the first one’s still off dreaming about things to come, like an engagement or a wedding. I’m not sure which one you’d prefer, so that is entirely up to you. You… do know how to do it, right?”

D. “This is one of those moments where you have to find your own path. In the end, the solution you reach for this problem will tell me, and the world, just what kind of man you will become.”

Treave did not fail to deliver. Anyway, this has a very clear answer to it.

Option A is clearly magnificent and what I think Erdrick personally believes, but it won't do to have a subordinate seeking to have a vaster love than his master. Giving him this encouragement will ensure that we'll always end up having Arlin's sloppy seconds by the time we're able to whip Mercant's enormous love into shape, that won't do.

Option C will cause hilarious drama, but as funny as hateful teenage love triangles and broken promises are to watch from afar I really don't think that it's best to sabotage him like that when he already has a somewhat tenuous relationship with Trider and this causes some sort of blowout that we have to deal with. That aside, I don't think we do know how to do it with cat goblins unless Trider had a much wider ranging scope of lovers than I'd anticipated, so I'm not sure how much advice we can give to Arlin. Hey, treave, we're not playing as a furry here, right? Right?

Option D is obnoxious. "I know how to prevent the disaster I see approaching you, but I won't do anything about it because the results will be interesting to me." It's better to have left them alone if that was the case.

That leaves only option B. Stronger platonic bonds between subordinates and greater chance for some Stockholm Syndrome with the Pirate Queen's kid, more communication to avoid our regular sorts of disasters, and I think Arlin might be less likely to become a Casanova this way. We certainly won't adhere to this solid advice, of course, but our subordinates will probably be less messed up if they do.

A. She’s not going anywhere. At the very least, she should stay until the adventurers have been dealt with; you can decide what to do about the link after that problem has passed. You’ll take the risk that the cloaked figures discover Grahferde’s location to keep Rin at your side, and appeal to your mutual oath to make her stay.

B. You agree to let Rin go off on her expedition east. If she stays around and the cloaked figures decide to act at the same time that the adventurers arrive, you would be facing trouble on both fronts. Since Rin would be entering non-human territory, she should be able to handle it herself.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and vote B on this. Rin has been behaving pretty competently thus far, she's certainly improved in facing the cloaked folks and I trust her to be more cautious among them now. Besides that, people attack when you're at your most vulnerable, not your most able; as wide-ranging as these cultists seem to be, if they manage to narrow down the location of the village and know about the massive expedition, they'll be sure to strike and cause a lot of damage. Rin is durable as balls, the goblins and slimes and Zayan are... squishier. Rin getting brainwashed and attacking us is essentially the worst case scenario and that's already happened with us being able to win out in the end (and now we have the gauntlet which could probably have helped out even more in that case) so I don't think there's that much of a problem with sending Rin out. I'd rather her be on a high-level mission that she can handle rather than getting cabin fever in the village, anyway. As an added plus, if Rin's not around when the expedition shows up, that's much more XP for Trider and his subordinates to pick up on, and I'm sure she won't be missing out on gaining any herself when she's out in the wilds attacking those shady foes. If she gets overwhelmed or comes across very important information, it's also easy enough for her to teleport back in the majority of cases. Actually, treave, could we ask for Rin to zip back in and give a brief report to camp if she comes across incredibly important information to us at some point in her travel?

I'm voting BB.

 

[lightbane]

How about telling her without having her jumping through hoops to 'prove herself' as you put it? Letting her do so to make sure she doesn't need to sounds too Kunning to me.

It is Kunning because if she screws up a plan she made entirely on her own, she'll hopefully realize she's doing something wrong and will be less eager to "prove herself" further. Also, anime logic, which the CYOA seems to apply sometimes.
Lastly, 2-A sounds like Erd will demand her to stay with us by taking advantage of her oath, which is something she can take wrong and if she does she will be less willing to talk with us for a while, worsening the issue.

And also, I don't particularly trust her, thank you for asking. It's not about betraying us, though it is up in the air if those voices wouldn't make her an offer she can't refuse (what happens if they offer her solution to her problem?)

I had the same thought and honestly, yes, it is a risk, but so far we know there are only two ways of "acquiring her father's legacy": 1. Marriage and insemination (which won't work for now, even if she really wanted to ) ; 2. Forceful heart/soul extraction, a process which will no doubt prove lethal for Erd. I'm confident she no longer hates him that much to the point she would do the latter without hesitation (she even mentioned Erd would make a good demon, which I suppose it could be considered a compliment). She might be lied to, but that's again part of the risk.

First, it's not her problem, she just wants to make it hers and deal with it on her own. That's exactly the kind of attitude I am trying to rid her of.
Second, how much confidence does 'I crossed blades with them twice and got owned/tricked both times, do not worry, I'll be fine!' inspire?

Well, the first one can be dealt with by sending her. If she fails, that will certainly temper her attitude. If she does it successfully, it won't be without great hardship and without missing the commodities of having an entire army of servants to do her chores and other people to give her company.
The second one... No idea, it would help if we knew what kind of spells and techniques she has available, but sadly we don't have full access to her sheet. Perhaps she's aware of the "third time is the charm" rule?
In fact, considering she can teleport back at any time (twice if she knows how to draw a circle), there's nothing stopping her of literally dropping by whenever she feels lonely/has something important to discuss with us.

Simply put, I think we would be able to get more out of her if we watch each others' backs - and if we can fix her messed up head at least a little in the meantime, that would be the greatest reward I could ask for.

Unfortunately you know that won't happen until she grows up from her childish phase, which won't happen anytime soon. If only we knew what's her current relationship meter and which option would raise it further...

Also, we don't know if there will be time to talk after the adventurer's expedition. The aftermath will be world-changing, no matter how much we try to downplay it.

EDIT:

That aside, I don't think we do know how to do it with cat goblins unless Trider had a much wider ranging scope of lovers than I'd anticipated, so I'm not sure how much advice we can give to Arlin. Hey, treave, we're not playing as a furry here, right? Right?

Considering he was desperate enough to betray his race and his (former) friends for the off-chance of getting some pussy, I would say he has not many standards about what kind of women he likes.
Doubly so considering he started doing this since the Academy, that is, when he was about 12/13 tops.
Oh, and one of his first uses for the unique spell he created (if not the primary goal) was to spy on women.

 

[Elfberserker]

BB

I think, I will gamble on Rin leaving to scout and hunt those shadowy bastards. Not only it's good oppurtunity to get some info, but it's also good chance to give surprise punch belove the belt to those wankers.
Sometimes you gotta let your partners/minions to do their own thing to grow as person as well in power, besides I trust Rin not to fuck up us in ass for trivial reasons....Well maybe for something important reason to her, but I find it very unlikely that those cultist can gave her one.

Besides I am tired that those little shadowy fucks screwing our plans and if we with good luck get another demonic weapon with Rin as wielder then it makes future battles easier.

 

[Nevill]

It was because if she screws up a plan she made entirely on her own, she'll hopefully realize she's doing something wrong

So it would be sending her off while hoping she fails. The stakes are a bit too high now for that kind of thinking.

Lastly, 2-A sounds like Erd will demand her to stay with us by taking advantage of her oath, which is something she can take wrong and if she does she will be less willing to talk with us for a while, worsening the issue.

Nah, I wouldn't worry about that. Asking one to uphold their duty as a partner is not something that should offend people - unless we imply they are slacking off.

Look, were it a personal matter she absolutely must do, I'd be more willing to listen. But it looks like something she is doing not to be a burden on anyone. She can't ask Zayan for help - the elf is too busy. She can't ask us for help - she is too independent, and we have our 'enterprise' to take care of, and she didn't want to inconvenience us by making them interested, etc etc.

Basically, I suspect she thinks she is being useless.

but so far we know there are only two ways of "acquiring her father's legacy"

...that we came up with without knowing the first thing about it. None of which are guaranteed to work.

What if they know of a way, or worse yet, can convince her that they know it?

In fact, considering she can teleport back at any time (twice if she knows how to draw a circle), there's nothing stopping her to literally drop by whenever she feels lonely/has something important to discuss with us.

I think Rin wouldn't consider coming back empty-handed in her current state of mind.

Unfortunately you know that won't happen until she grows up from her childish phase, which won't happen anytime soon.

Not unless Erdrick stops dicking around. He can find it in himself to talk to Arlin, at least. Maybe he can influence Rin as well.


This whole situation gives me 'Qilin asking permission to leave to spy on her mother' vibes, though far less dramatic.

 

[TOME]

BB

 

[Jester]

BB

 

[lightbane]

So it would be sending her off while hoping she fails. The stakes are a bit too high now for that kind of thinking.

How so? She is strong enough to take care of most kind of enemies and can teleport. If she gets captured and mind-controlled... We'll see what to do then.

What if they know of a way, or worse yet, can convince her that they know it?

That is part of the risk, but we have the advantage of her drive and lack of patience to stop and listen to the enemy's rants.

I think Rin wouldn't consider coming back empty-handed in her current state of mind.

That is why I adviced for her not to leave unless we provide with the means (and obligation) to report back once in a while .

Not unless Erdrick stops dicking around. He can find it in himself to talk to Arlin, at least. Maybe he can influence Rin as well.

But will he? Erd is quite obsessed with his personal problem. In fact, we do not even know if he is aware (in character) of what is wrong with Rin or if he will even bother. For not to mention it seems the majority is going to vote for B so it is a moot discussion anyway.
Actually, treave, how "forceful"/demanding will Erd be with 2-A?

 

[ScubaV]

Pretty much agree with Kipeci.

BB

 

[Nevill]

That is part of the risk, but we have the advantage of her drive and lack of patience to stop and listen to the enemy's rants.

They are pretty much in her head already. They just don't know how to get to her and promise some trifles like power and wealth and other banalities instead of what matters.

That is why I adviced for her not to leave unless we provide with the means (and obligation) to report back once in a while .

Kind of, yes. If we can at least part with her on good enough terms so that she doesn't run off on ADVENTURE without looking back... maybe something good could come out of it. The situation just doesn't give me the right vibes.

Plus, I am an opportunist. If I see a choice that became available because of some other action we took earluer, I usually take it, too. We have learned of Rin's plot before she left us with a letter, so I feel like we ought to thwart it. Or at least part with her properly/give advice/equip her - something to distinguish it from her initial plan of silently walking away.

Nevermind, looks like the bandwagon has formed. If the Codex loses our murderprincess to a gamble, I'll pull a Lambchop and start spamming lemming memes.

But will he? Erd is quite obsessed with his personal problem.

I think the depth of our involvement with our companions is still for us to decide. We took Aria on a mission with us - we learned something new about her and signed up for her tutoring. We stayed behind to work together with Zayan - it improved our mutual respect for each other and opened up a whole new branch of magic. We stopped ignoring Arlin and approached him... and maybe something comes out of this, too.

 

[Baltika9]

I think holding Rin back is a terrible idea, for exactly this reason:

Sometimes you gotta let your partners/minions to do their own thing to grow as person as well in power

She basically had an identity crisis after her family died and she had been thrown into a new life. She's grown with it. Yeah, there have been some rough patches, but she has actually improved (as comical as it was, her handling the bandit camp was actually pretty mature and way better than any situation she involved herself in before). I see nothing but growth here and I'm willing to trust her on this one, because she needs to build confidence, which is not something we can do for her.
My only caveat would be to give her some way of instantly communicating a crisis to us (an alert medallion or something). Not because we don't trust her, but because we're partners. Also, I'd like to send Arlin with her, both to break him of his reluctance to kill and for him to pick up more girlfriends (you'll see where I'm going with this). treave, is any of that possible?

I think the depth of our involvement with our companions is still for us to decide. We took Aria on a mission with us - we learned something new about her and signed up for her tutoring. We stayed behind to work together with Zayan - it improved our mutual respect for each other and opened up a whole new branch of magic. We stopped ignoring Arlin and approached him... and maybe something comes out of this, too.

Zayan and Erdrick are fellow magical researchers/geniuses, they have something to bond over. Aria and Arlin are children, which means that they are malleable at this early stage of development. Rin isn't and she doesn't have much in common with us, unless we want to get naked and throw down, so she needs to work this out for herself.

As for Arlin, I'll have to vote for A, because that is how Erdrick sees himself and I just want him to live his life vicariously through Arlin, plying the gleeful matchmaker and royally fucking up his life with his terrible advice that doesn't actually make the kid's life any easier ("You said a succubus would help me solve this, Master! A threesome isn't helping! DON'T STICK YOUR TAIL THERE!"). If he can't deal with a harem of teenage girls, he doesn't deserve to be our apprentice.

AB

 

[Nevill]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and vote B on this. Rin has been behaving pretty competently thus far, she's certainly improved in facing the cloaked folks and I trust her to be more cautious among them now. (1) Besides that, people attack when you're at your most vulnerable, not your most able; as wide-ranging as these cultists seem to be, if they manage to narrow down the location of the village and know about the massive expedition, they'll be sure to strike and cause a lot of damage. Rin is durable as balls, the goblins and slimes and Zayan are... squishier. (2) Rin getting brainwashed and attacking us is essentially the worst case scenario and that's already happened with us being able to win out in the end (and now we have the gauntlet which could probably have helped out even more in that case) so I don't think there's that much of a problem with sending Rin out. (3) I'd rather her be on a high-level mission that she can handle rather than getting cabin fever in the village, anyway. As an added plus, if Rin's not around when the expedition shows up, that's much more XP for Trider and his subordinates to pick up on, and I'm sure she won't be missing out on gaining any herself when she's out in the wilds attacking those shady foes. (4) If she gets overwhelmed or comes across very important information, it's also easy enough for her to teleport back in the majority of cases. Actually, treave, could we ask for Rin to zip back in and give a brief report to camp if she comes across incredibly important information to us at some point in her travel?

Alright, I am feeeling talkative today.

So let's see the pro and contra of this argument.

(1) Yes, allowing her to stay is a risk. Says so in the choice. The difference is risking the village vs. risking Rin - plus, having her to defend from several possible attackers vs. not having her around while only attacked by adventurers whom we've so far ignored. This seems to balance out.

Rin's durability may yet play a low-down trick on us. That brings us to (2).

We don't know the mechanism for brainwashing yet, and we don't know if that's what is Rin more likely to face. The second person didn't have anything on him, but that's not telling us much because he wasn't prepared to find trouble. However, so far we have seen the cloaked people are related to Byarlant, and Athos belongs to a Byarlant archmage, so this remains a possibility. Last time we were able to overcome Rin, but there were two factors playing in our favor - she was wounded, and she resisted the brainwashing, allowing us to strike her down despite being inferior to her in combat. While we now have Barbatos, it is unknown how much of an equalizer he would be were these two factors removed.

(3) I'll give you the XP argument. The halo upgrade is too shiny.

(4) Rin? Fleeing when overwhelmed? Do you remember our encounter in the Demon Palace?

Rina-fumblerina is also Rina-spacemarina.

My only caveat would be to give her some way of instantly communicating a crisis to us (an alert medallion or something). Not because we don't trust her, but because we're partners.

I'd be down with that, actually.

But even if we could create one, what are we supposed to do if we receive an alert and we don't know where she is or how to track her?

Zayan and Erdrick are fellow magical researchers/geniuses, they have something to bond over. Aria and Arlin are children, which means that they are malleable at this early stage of development. Rin isn't and she doesn't have much in common with us

Rin has more in common with us (and vice versa) than with anyone else in this world. To us, she is the only person who knows of our world and can relate to the events that transpired there, and so is Erdrick to her. It means a lot.

 

[Baltika9]

You mean the demon world that we helped destroy and the human world she was fighting against, right?

 

[lightbane]

Alright, one last post for today:
It seems that the consensus is that if Rin leaves, she should acquire the means to allow a communication line between us. If that's possible, it would certainly reduce most of the risks. Besides, if Erdrick can invent something that resembles the so-called "social" network and unleash it upon this unsuspecting world, his "evilness scale" will max out to 100 and stay here for the rest of the game.

Baltika has a point about Rin. The only thing Erd and Rin might find in common is that they have wings which can manipulate to some degree (and even then Rin is most certainly envious of our wingspan). I said half-jokingly to challenge Rin to an air race to test Erd's flying skills, but I'm not sure if Rin can actually fly to begin with. And unlike Rin's it doesn't seem that Angels' wings can turn into tentacles, which is .

 

[Baltika9]

Alright, one last post for today:
It seems that the consensus is that if Rin leaves, she should acquire the means to allow a communication line between us. If that's possible, it would certainly reduce most of the risks. Besides, if Erdrick can invent something that resembles the so-called "social" network and unleash it upon this unsuspecting world, his "evilness scale" will max out to 100 and stay here for the rest of the game.

You sick fuck. I love it.

 

[Nevill]

You mean the demon world that we helped destroy and the human world she was fighting against, right?

Right. It was a war, and we were enemies. Not anymore - and the things that bind us together all come from the old world.

It's not like you never heard about former enemies becoming the closest friends when there in no more reason for the feud because they undestand each other better than anyone.

Fallout 2 had a mutant and a pally founding a settlement. Do you hate Fallout 2, Baltika9?

It seems that the consensus is that if Rin leaves, she should acquire the means to allow a communication line between us. If that's possible, it would certainly reduce most of the risks.

Don't think it would do much for the risks themselves, but hopefully it will provide us with ways of righting the situation should anything happen, on multiple levels.

And also to remind her that we do care about this partnership stuff. Even though we haven't got close to solving the legacy problem... or did we? Genetic engineering might be a start...

The only thing Erd and Rin might find in common is that they have wings which can manipulate to some degree (and even then Rin is most certainly envious of our wingspan).

I don't think belonging to different species has much to do with having things in common. Just ask Arlin.

 

[treave]

Although I would like for her to wait a little before leaving: between Erdrick, Zayan and Rin they could develop some sort of spell/magical artifact that allows long-range communication. That way she could keep us informed as she moves around. Later on she can use this spell/device to chat with whatever friends she makes in her adventure. Can we make this a C option

That's only an option if you pick A now. You're not going to make something like that overnight.

Actually, treave, could we ask for Rin to zip back in and give a brief report to camp if she comes across incredibly important information to us at some point in her travel?

You could ask her to report in regularly. Whether she will do so is another matter, of course.

Actually, treave, how "forceful"/demanding will Erd be with 2-A?

It's not a demand. You're basically telling her that she's more important to you than potentially losing the village.

I think the depth of our involvement with our companions is still for us to decide.

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Nevill]

You're basically telling her that she's more important to you than potentially losing the village.

So I think I guessed right and B is pretty much 'I don't need you here for the moment'. Just what Rin needs to hear.

 

[ScubaV]

My only caveat would be to give her some way of instantly communicating a crisis to us (an alert medallion or something).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln-YViin6p0

 

[Baltika9]

Right. It was a war, and we were enemies. Not anymore - and the things that bind us together all come from the old world.

It's not like you never heard about former enemies becoming the closest friends when there in no more reason for the feud because they undestand each other better than anyone.

Fallout 2 had a mutant and a pally founding a settlement. Do you hate Fallout 2, Baltika9?

Yeah, except they come from different worlds (literally and figuratively) and had almost zero contact before Erd took the castle. The only thing they have to bond over is 'nice boobs/wings.'
Any relationship needs to be built from scratch and step number one is trust.

I don't think belonging to different species have much to do with having things in common. Just ask Arlin.

Speaking of him, anyone else down with making Erd live vicariously through him? It will be funny, give us a ton of ways to keep him loyal and provide the best way to break his goody two-shoes ways: love.

 

[Tigranes]

Is 80% of this thread now nevill arguing with treave about how the story should go

No, wait, I'm out of date. Let me read the page then