Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

I must say, the way oddities and cyphers are described gives me Roadside Picnic vibes. It probably wasn't done intentionally, but still very cool in my book.

 

[prodigydancer]

Wow, I really hope they didn't cut them all together.

The word from the devs is that tidal attunement segment is "very possible to return in some form" which sounds like "don't count on it" to me. Maybe I'm just overly pessimistic though. We'll see.

 

[Starwars]

Motherfucker. I mean, the actual fight and attuning with the creatures in the previous beta was too lengthy and a kinda tedious affair. But yeah, the choose your own adventure segment that followed it was fucking excellent and exactly the kind of thing I would want to see more of and not less.

 

[Popiel]

Balance is out of whack. Effort trivialises everything anyway, and giving 2 as a base makes it worse. I'm a Learned Nano who Wields a Silver Tongue, and with that cypher that gives 1 extra Intellect Edge and the 1 point I put into extra Effort, I can now put 3 Effort in all Intellect tasks at no cost. Which means that I'm suddenly a master persuader, liar, loremaster, mechanic, and what have you: guaranteed success at everthing vaguely Intellect-related. Bleh.

Also, because the game has so many ways to approach things (which is awesome!) this strongly incentivises minmaxing. Put all your chips on Intellect and ignore any Might or Speed checks, and breeze throught everything. If they've put as many Might or Speed checks in there, the same would apply to that.

tl;dr great game but the system stinks

That post is truth. The truth.

I made my first hero Learned Nano and went all the way into Intellect with everything I could. It's just too easy.

 

[Roguey]

No doubt there'll be a big balance pass within a month of release as there was with Wasteland 2.

 

[Prime Junta]

No doubt there'll be a big balance pass within a month of release as there was with Wasteland 2.

No doubt.

This will be hella hard to balance though because of Effort. Balance it for characters who spread their points around and minmaxers will get 85-100% chance of success in their specialty all the time. Balance it for the minmaxers, and the jacks-of-all-trades won't be able to progress at all.

 

[Infinitron]

Adam Heine How do you intend to address this problem?

(worth a try)

 

[ArchAngel]

Balance is out of whack. Effort trivialises everything anyway, and giving 2 as a base makes it worse. I'm a Learned Nano who Wields a Silver Tongue, and with that cypher that gives 1 extra Intellect Edge and the 1 point I put into extra Effort, I can now put 3 Effort in all Intellect tasks at no cost. Which means that I'm suddenly a master persuader, liar, loremaster, mechanic, and what have you: guaranteed success at everthing vaguely Intellect-related. Bleh.

Also, because the game has so many ways to approach things (which is awesome!) this strongly incentivises minmaxing. Put all your chips on Intellect and ignore any Might or Speed checks, and breeze throught everything. If they've put as many Might or Speed checks in there, the same would apply to that.

tl;dr great game but the system stinks

Not sure what you are talking about. To use 3 effort you need to spend 7 points from your Int pool. For that to be free you need to have 7 Int Edge.
Either TToN uses very modified Numenera system or you have no clue what you are talking about and you are mistaking some other things for Effort.
Also cyphers are supposed to be one shot and not give bonus for every roll.

 

[CMcC]

Balance is out of whack. Effort trivialises everything anyway, and giving 2 as a base makes it worse. I'm a Learned Nano who Wields a Silver Tongue, and with that cypher that gives 1 extra Intellect Edge and the 1 point I put into extra Effort, I can now put 3 Effort in all Intellect tasks at no cost. Which means that I'm suddenly a master persuader, liar, loremaster, mechanic, and what have you: guaranteed success at everthing vaguely Intellect-related. Bleh.

Also, because the game has so many ways to approach things (which is awesome!) this strongly incentivises minmaxing. Put all your chips on Intellect and ignore any Might or Speed checks, and breeze throught everything. If they've put as many Might or Speed checks in there, the same would apply to that.

tl;dr great game but the system stinks

Our systems guys are totally aware of this. Part of the reason for the introduction of the Health bar is that we had no way of knowing how or where people had spent their Pool points, and it was entirely possible they'd go into Crises or situations where they could irretrievably fail. While we're cool with ending games for bad choices ("Why yes, I *WILL* stand and fighting this gigantic insect toe to toe!"), we didn't want to create a frustrating initial experience because of a combination of stat management and unlucky random numbers.

We're still working on balancing all this. It is, as you might imagine, pretty tricky.

 

[CMcC]

Motherfucker. I mean, the actual fight and attuning with the creatures in the previous beta was too lengthy and a kinda tedious affair. But yeah, the choose your own adventure segment that followed it was fucking excellent and exactly the kind of thing I would want to see more of and not less.

I replied to Prodigydancer over on the official forums. Short response: we love MRY 's work, but our initial placement for it wasn't as impactful as we wanted. We've moved his stuff elsewhere, but it is NOT cut.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

we didn't want to create a frustrating initial experience because of a combination of stat management and unlucky random numbers

 

[Abu Antar]

Motherfucker. I mean, the actual fight and attuning with the creatures in the previous beta was too lengthy and a kinda tedious affair. But yeah, the choose your own adventure segment that followed it was fucking excellent and exactly the kind of thing I would want to see more of and not less.

I replied to Prodigydancer over on the official forums. Short response: we love MRY 's work, but our initial placement for it wasn't as impactful as we wanted. We've moved his stuff elsewhere, but it is NOT cut.

I'm happy to hear that. That was some of the best parts of the beta.

 

[Drudkh]

But yeah, the choose your own adventure segment that followed it was fucking excellent and exactly the kind of thing I would want to see more of and not less.

Those segments were goddamn precisely what "storyfags" and fans of the last Torment game are into, so to streamline the game for an audience who wants less of that

Just goes against the actual fanbase and the few that will probably play the game to the end (not to be a dick with that comment, but we all know less than half of mindless consumers actually complete these rpgs)

Balance is out of whack. Effort trivialises everything anyway, and giving 2 as a base makes it worse.

Here we go... no wonder TGA is pissed. Well, atleast Dragon Age fans can enjoy reading the great dialogue now with no pesky annoyances... Wait, the game isn't fully voiced you say?

 

[Brother None]

Balance is out of whack. Effort trivialises everything anyway, and giving 2 as a base makes it worse. I'm a Learned Nano who Wields a Silver Tongue, and with that cypher that gives 1 extra Intellect Edge and the 1 point I put into extra Effort, I can now put 3 Effort in all Intellect tasks at no cost. Which means that I'm suddenly a master persuader, liar, loremaster, mechanic, and what have you: guaranteed success at everthing vaguely Intellect-related. Bleh.

Also, because the game has so many ways to approach things (which is awesome!) this strongly incentivises minmaxing. Put all your chips on Intellect and ignore any Might or Speed checks, and breeze throught everything. If they've put as many Might or Speed checks in there, the same would apply to that.

tl;dr great game but the system stinks

As you can imagine, sweeping system changes mean balance is pretty much non-existent. We're fully aware the character progression balance (and economy balance) is non-functional, but that's one of those things we have the coming 6 months to hammer at. It's challenging because, well, balancing always is, but ultimately these changes to the system will only make such balance easier to do, on the long-term.

But yeah, the choose your own adventure segment that followed it was fucking excellent and exactly the kind of thing I would want to see more of and not less.

Those segments were goddamn precisely what "storyfags" and fans of the last Torment game are into, so to streamline the game for an audience who wants less of that

Just goes against the actual fanbase and the few that will probably play the game to the end (not to be a dick with that comment, but we all know less than half of mindless consumers actually complete these rpgs)

As Colin said, those sections are still in the game, just elsewhere.

 

[MRY]

People got bored at the start. This opens up the game faster. Those portions are still in, as is another I wrote in addition to the Matkina one. Plus a bunch by Colin, Adam, and Nathan.

 

[Starwars]

Thank god, that would've been a huge loss otherwise. Thanks for responding guys.

Also, didn't know you wrote that stuff MRY. You're awesome.

 

[Drudkh]

Thanks for the replys dudes Love ya :D

 

[CMcC]

I also need to say that MRY's writing on this stuff is just astonishingly good. The care and thought he brings to every word is amazing. If there were any discussion about cutting his stuff altogether, there would be an enormous, blood-soaked fight.

 

[MRY]

I wrote Gold(dying old pc), Blue ("puzzle breaker"), purple (whale), Matkina, and another. Did some editing, too.

--edit--

And a few characters and monoliths (philethis, clerk, others you haven't met yet). One of them is probably the game writing I'm proudest of. Nychthemeron romance.

 

[DosBuster]

Holy fuck, I got the perk that lets you read people's minds. I cannot stress enough for you guys to get this perk, I really want to say some of the effects it had on my playthrough but I also don't want to spoil it for people here.

Who wrote Erritis by the way?

 

[prodigydancer]

As you can imagine, sweeping system changes mean balance is pretty much non-existent. We're fully aware the character progression balance (and economy balance) is non-functional, but that's one of those things we have the coming 6 months to hammer at.

There are two things you should have considered. First, "a world unlike any other" isn't (or at least shouldn't be) just art and the setting. By adding hit points you sacrificed a part of TToN's uniqueness, and balance is still, in your own words, "non-functional" which means you've gained nothing in return. Second, sweeping system changes at this point mean you won't be able to release the game in a better state than WL2 was. And apparently the only reason for hitting your fans with an inevitably buggy release is that mainstream dummies cannot understand a combat system without HP.

We've moved his stuff elsewhere, but it is NOT cut.

Nice to hear that, thanks!

 

[Prime Junta]

Not sure what you are talking about. To use 3 effort you need to spend 7 points from your Int pool. For that to be free you need to have 7 Int Edge.

Not in T:ToN you don't. 1 Effort costs 1 Pool. 3 Edge gives 3 free Effort.

Either TToN uses very modified Numenera system or you have no clue what you are talking about and you are mistaking some other things for Effort.
Also cyphers are supposed to be one shot and not give bonus for every roll.

There's a cypher you get early on which gives +1 Intellect Edge until next rest. With that 3 Int Edge I have now (4 actually since I bumped it another notch), I don't see myself resting any time soon...

 

[Drudkh]

Holy fuck, I got the perk that lets you read people's minds. I cannot stress enough for you guys to get this perk

Yup yup. It's pretty crucial if you're playing the game chiefly for the story. It's surprising just how much more writing the player gets to experience with it. (love this game)

 

[Prime Junta]

Holy fuck, I got the perk that lets you read people's minds. I cannot stress enough for you guys to get this perk

Yup yup. It's pretty crucial if you're playing the game chiefly for the story. It's surprising just how much more writing the player gets to experience with it. (love this game)

Tru dat. Kinda makes playing as anything other than a nano somewhat pointless though.

 

[Popiel]

Tru dat. Kinda makes playing as anything other than a nano somewhat pointless though.

Yeah, playing P:T as anyone other than WisIntCharMaxer is kind of useless as well. It's not an issue for me that being Nano gives you the most.