World building is king

[Sacred82]

By which I mean the parts that are meant to contribute to a cohesive, believable world: dialogue, story, topography, architecture, itemization, population.

These are the things that make the RPG genre stand out, even when put next to its closest cousin, the adventure game. Few puzzle-heavy games rival an Ultima VII in the number of items. And the lore of most adventure games doesn't come close, at least in volume as well as breadth, to the more extensive RPG offerings. No other genre comes close to that effect of RPG's where you just want to spend time within the simulation - not to advance the story or otherwise rush to the end.

What then doesn't count among the elements of world building? The combat system, for one. Elaboration in combat systems exists only because developers don't know how to create gameplay, and for people to whom tactical combat is an end to itself. Character systems are usually at odds with the workings of the world, at least in games with a hero story arc, so they are out too. Most crafting systems are out (they don't allow the crafting of implicitly necessary items but allow crafting of epically powerful items). Puzzles are rarely in alignment with the world, too.

In other words, I'm saying the Codex' obsession with mechanics is a load of crock.

 

[felipepepe]

Would you rather play a walking simulator or a tactical game? For most people here, the answer is clear - that's why mechanics are so important.

Yet, our most beloved games all excel at world-building - PS:T, Bloodlines, Morrowind, Gothic, etc...

So, really, any game needs decent mechanics, but for it to be truly excellent they must be met with great world-building.

 

[Excidium II]

None of that shit really matters much for a videogame beyond the basic setup of what the world is like and kind of ass lives in it.


Topography? Architecture? What the fuck

 

[Sacred82]

Would you rather play a walking simulator or a tactical game? For most people here, the answer is clear - that's why mechanics are so important.

I'm not so sure there. A lot of Codexers seem to say that they want meaty mechanics, and most of all tactical combat. They will also admit that they want the trappings of fantasy, science fiction, space opera or post-apoc. But then, why don't they all play SRPG's on consoles and handhelds?

So, really, any game needs decent mechanics, but for it to be truly excellent they must be met with great world-building.

I'd say that's the answer. However, what's decent? Is Ultima VII's combat system decent? I'd say so (shooting into melee is a feature!). Great world building needs good mechanics to be great, but only decent mechanics to be good. However, great mechanics with shit world building needs a different format - it's not an RPG.

 

[felipepepe]

why don't they all play SRPG's on consoles and handhelds?

Because that requires consoles & handhelds? This is a PC-oriented website, and while a lot of people emulate, no all games & consoles are emulatable.

Great world building needs good mechanics to be great, but only decent mechanics to be good. However, great mechanics with shit world building needs a different format - it's not an RPG.

Games like Wizardry or Dungeon Master are all-time classics, with barely any world-building. They are much easier to come across than classic RPGs with crap mechanics - PS:T aside.

 

[Viata]

Once again we got people saying Wizardry is not RPG. Let's have fun: aweigh

 

[Sacred82]

Because that requires consoles & handhelds? This is a PC-oriented website, and while a lot of people emulate, no all games & consoles are emulatable.

I doubt that's the only reason (old console games are cheap enough to warrant buying them on the side). No, I suspect the whole simulationist aspects are so strong that they draw people in, even while they are hooked on fighting, looting or other, adrenaline driven activities. Reducing RPG's to quantifiable elements like attributes and damage would take this motivation away.

Games like Wizardry or Dungeon Master are all-time classics, with barely any world-building. They are much easier to come across than classic RPGs with crap mechanics - PS:T aside.

A turn-based combat system, especially one as barebones as in the old Wizardry's, is technically easier to do than world simulation. But they also had fluff world building elements like races and resting. Which is what I said above; you draw people in with the fantasy stuff, but you keep them playing with the inflated numbers game.

 

[Excidium II]

Because that requires consoles & handhelds? This is a PC-oriented website, and while a lot of people emulate, no all games & consoles are emulatable.

I doubt that's the only reason (old console games are cheap enough to warrant buying them on the side). No, I suspect the whole simulationist aspects are so strong that they draw people in, even while they are hooked on fighting, looting or other, adrenaline driven activities. Reducing RPG's to quantifiable elements like attributes and damage would take this motivation away.

Wow look at all this pretentious academic gamer garbage. The real reason is they won't touch console/anime on principle.

 

[Sacred82]

Wow look at all this pretentious academic gamer garbage. It's because they won't touch console/anime on principle.

In my experience principles don't keep people from seeking the entertainment they crave.

 

[Excidium II]

It does here.

 

[Jrpgfan]

Wow look at all this pretentious academic gamer garbage. It's because they won't touch console/anime on principle.

In my experience principles don't keep people from seeking the entertainment they crave.

They might even seek but I doubt they'd ever share it.

It's like fucking a fat or ugly chick. You might do it and even enjoy but you'll never tell your friends.

 

[Sacred82]

that's definitely more likely than them just being too cool for anime and playing games they don't like because glorious PC master race

 

[Sacred82]

Topography? Architecture? What the fuck

You can say what you want about Sawyer but for a mechanics autist he made sure some effort was put into these elements

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah and it sure helped.

 

[Lhynn]

You can say what you want about Sawyer but for a mechanics autist he made sure some effort was put into these elements

Didnt mean much when all he could deliver was a steaming pile of shit.

 

[Sacred82]

Pillars is not shit because of its world building.

 

[Excidium II]

Pillars is not shit because of its world building.

The point is that all the effort into world building made zero impact in the quality of the end product. It doesn't matter.

 

[Sacred82]

Pillars is not shit because of its world building.

The point is that all the effort into world building made zero impact in the quality of the end product. It doesn't matter.

There are worse games than Pillars, and worse RPG's on top. Even on the Codex it seems fairly popular despite the typical black/ white painting.

 

[Beastro]

whynotboth.gif

You need both done well for a really great game, but for a simply decent, fun game you can sacrifice world building and make do with good mechanics.

Pillars is not shit because of its world building.

No, but it's worse shit because of it.

Pillars is not shit because of its world building.

The point is that all the effort into world building made zero impact in the quality of the end product. It doesn't matter.

If that were the case then Durance wouldn't stand out like a shining beacon in the game.

Had the world building been good then there'd have been a very divided opinion on the game here with many more throwing it out as an excuse as to why it isn't as bad as the detractors claim it is. Instead we had a very small minority supporting it, a very large one bashing it and an equally large one feeling numb and indifferent.

 

[BobtheTree]

The obvious answer is yes.

 

[Excidium II]

If that were the case then Durance wouldn't stand out like a shining beacon in the game.

Might be because he was written by some special person. MCA can make anything interesting.

Still, you wouldn't play PoE just to talk to him.

 

[Hyperion]

How would you prefer your D&D game? Listen to the DM describe the vegetation and fauna surrounding the cave full of monsters and loot? Or walk into the cave and smash the shit out of tough monsters and get gear?

I would expect Reddit to circlejerk over worldbuilding and cry about their immersion being ruined because a game doesn't require you purchase / find / craft your own arrows for the bow you just pulled out of a wolf's stomach. Not so much here.

 

[Cadmus]

the obvious answer is that a good game cannot be a one note indie gimmick bullshit, it must be a well rounded product and we can just barely overcome the game being lacking in just one aspect of it

 

[Prime Junta]

Isn't this just another "storyfag/combatfag/kc" poll?

 

[Beastro]

and cry about their immersion being ruined because a game doesn't require you purchase / find / craft your own arrows for the bow you just pulled out of a wolf's stomach. Not so much here.

Nice exaggeration.

We both know that isn't happening here.