Deus ex Vs Bloodlines

[Wesp5]

Architecturally complex or complex in events, gameplay, inter-connectivity etc? If anything except the former, then no way.

The former, HL is a linear shooter. I only used it as an example that architecturally complex maps were possible at that time!

One and only. Aside from some minor contributions over the years it's been mostly me alone, as you have with the patch.

Cool! I never even knew about this project and it's great to meet another kindred mind focused on improving an old classic .

Have you checked their other barks? Because they never shut up. Most noticeable if shooter build.

I checked the diner fight and also the parking garage where six guys were fighting, but I didn't get too many barks at all.

Can you actually modify the AI code directly?

No. We have no source code for Bloodlines, so what we can do is limited. In case of the sounds, a soundgroup is set and we can edit the sound files in a group themselves, but when what sound file is played is up to the hard-coded AI...

 

[Ash]

I only used it as an example that architecturally complex maps were possible at that time!

Definitely, but to the cost of size of the map and potential focus on other aspects of design.

No. We have no source for Bloodlines, so what we can do is limited. In case of the sounds, a soundgroup is set and we can edit the sound files themselfes, but when what sound file is played is up to the hard-coded AI...

Thanks for the info.

Keep up the good work and it's a real shame the game cannot be elevated much due to no source.

 

[Wesp5]

Keep up the good work and it's a real shame the game cannot be elevated much due to no source.

Yeah, but at least we can now create new maps and do other things that were not possible only a few years ago!

Speaking of which, does GMDX contain restored content, like cut maps or similar? You probably know that Bloodlines was released quite unfinished so I restored a lot of stuff and even split my patch for the purists that didn't want this. Is that the same for DX or was it more or less exactly as the developers wanted when it was released? In the announcement of GMDX 9.0 you actually wrote that you will remove some weapons, because they were not intended to be in the original game?

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

In case of the sounds, a soundgroup is set and we can edit the sound files in a group themselves, but when what sound file is played is up to the hard-coded AI...

Isn't it possible to add a few dummy .wav files and add them to the soundgroup? Or possibly add silence to the existing audio files if the game logic takes the length into account? I never tried to mod Source Engine games, but this could be a possible fix (unless you've tried all that already or it's 100% impossible).

 

[Ash]

Keep up the good work and it's a real shame the game cannot be elevated much due to no source.

Yeah, but at least we can now create new maps and do other things that were not possible only a few years ago!

Speaking of which, does GMDX contain restored content, like cut maps or similar? You probably know that Bloodlines was released quite unfinished so I restored a lot of stuff and even split my patch for the purists that didn't want this. Is that the same for DX or was it more or less exactly as the developers wanted when it was released? In the announcement of GMDX 9.0 you actually wrote that you will remove some weapons, because they were not intended to be in the original game?

No, GMDX is rather different. It's purist in principle only. As in I strictly stay true to the original design principles, but expand the game substantially. Deus Ex was one of the last (good) games in a long-ish line of games, so the design practices are well established if one takes the time to study them. I push further in accordance with those practices, but I also focus a lot on polishing the game and fixing bugs too.

The weapons were added in a previous version, and I've redacted that design decision primarily because they were not entirely consistent with the games art style and unique weapons. They were real-world weapons while all of Deus Ex's were unique designs to varying degrees. They also had a technical flaw or two. So therefore they were inconsistent and not up to the quality the game deserves, even though they did add new meaningful choice to the game the execution wasn't impeccable.

 

[Wesp5]

Isn't it possible to add a few dummy .wav files and add them to the soundgroup?

That was the first idea I had and it would be possible for normal floats. Bloodlines chooses one of 12 random lines and silent ones would not be heard! But these are only played when you bump into a NPC, the problematic ones are those voiced when a NPC attacks and they are chosen from only 3 which are different. So I would remove content which I won't do...

 

[Wesp5]

No, GMDX is rather different. It's purist in principle only. As in I strictly stay true to the original design principles, but expand the game substantially.

So do you ever get into heated debates with people who see the original design principles differently than yourself or is everything rather obvious?

I've redacted that design decision primarily because they were not entirely consistent with the games art style and unique weapons.

Yeah, I made some changes in early versions of the patch that I have reverted in the meantime as well, because I learned that they didn't fit.

There are many infos about cut DX content on the Cutting Room Floor site. Do you plan to restore some of this, or did you already do it, or would it be impossible because of missing stuff? What other Unofficial Patches or Restoration Projects are out there that I don't know about ? I remember the Arcanum stuff, although I never played the game, the KOTOR projects are famous and there are many STALKER mods. Even before I began patching Bloodlines I was interested in lost content and restored some in my own little HL mods !

 

[Sitra Achara]

Sitra Achara
ToEE is better than either, right?

(if only Drogg was still alive)

Everything is shit.

No. We have no source code for Bloodlines, so what we can do is limited.
...
hard-coded AI...

Have you tried reversing Bloodlines?

 

[Wesp5]

Have you tried reversing Bloodlines?

I don't exactly know what you mean by "reversing", but atrblizzard started to do a Bloodlines remake first using a newer Source engine and then the Unity engine until he was stopped cold by a C&D letter from CDC. After the WoD rights had been sold to Paradox he contacted them, but I don't know what came out of this yet.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Have you tried reversing Bloodlines?

I don't exactly what you mean by "reversing", but someone started to do a remake first using a newer Source engine and then the Unity engine until he was stopped cold by a C&D letter from CDC. After the WoD rights had been sold to Paradox he contacted them, but I don't know what came out of this yet.

https://www.hex-rays.com/products/ida/support/download_freeware.shtml

This is how Temple+ started. Give it a try, might not be as hard as you think.

 

[Ash]

No, GMDX is rather different. It's purist in principle only. As in I strictly stay true to the original design principles, but expand the game substantially.

So do you ever get into heated debates with people who see the original design principles differently than yourself or is everything rather obvious?

Mostly only about hardcore mode really, but it's optional so no harm done either way. And I stand firm that it is an exceptional fit.

There are many infos about cut DX content on the Cutting Room Floor site. Do you plan to restore some of this, or did you already do it, or would it be impossible because of missing stuff?.

Yeah some content is restored, but only where logical to do so of course.

 

[Wesp5]

This is how Temple+ started. Give it a try, might not be as hard as you think.

I don't think it would be easy to "reverse" the Source engine or that Valve would be happy with it. Also I'm not a programer, so I wouldn't be able to use that tool anyway! Still great to now know that all three Troika games have found some long time support from the community !

 

[aleam iacis]

Deus Ex was a better FPS.

Some may even say it had better melee combat.

 

[Wesp5]

Yeah some content is restored, but only where logical to do so of course.

Very interesting! I can't find info about this easily on your site, so I'm using the Cutting Room Floor references for asking you here. I guess the flag bug about Ford Schick not appearing has been fixed and probably the destroyed newspaper too. But did you make the UNATCO safe accessible and did you restore all the lost conversations, sounds and music pieces? What about the unused security bot model and the alternate textures? Did you found a way to present them somewhere unobtrusively? I would think the cut whitehouse map hasn't been recreated because otherwise it would have been announced big time on your site. There probably was too little info about what should have happened there, no? Also I read somewhere that a whole moon base map with a connected rogue AI questline was cut, is this true?

 

[Ash]

Restoring cut maps is not feasible with JCD as the player. Bloodlines is lucky in that regard as the protag is silent.

Some conversations, some sound, some music, some textures. It's all a matter of context. Is it low quality? Would it fit or even make sense? Is there a good reason it was cut to begin with? I'm sure you encounter the same problems with Bloodlines.

Ford Schick is back.
The battery Park bum conversation is now accessible.
HDTP updated the unused sodacan textures, so I made use of them.
The unused security bot is now used, and given an AI overhaul.
Various unused sounds are made use of, but a lot are outright replaced with higher quality ones as the vanilla quality was p. poor.
I've asked KlauZ to Hi-resify the unused CouchLeather and ChairLeather skins, as more variety is needed for those models that are used so frequently throughout the game.
Only one music track is restored, as there's simply nowhere else appropriate to use the others, and so on.

 

[Shin]

Now I want to see Ash and Wesp5 collaborate on a Deus Ex/Bloodlines (inspired) hybrid project. Get us the best of both worlds!

 

[Wesp5]

Restoring cut maps is not feasible with JCD as the player. Bloodlines is lucky in that regard as the protag is silent.

You are right. Is it even known what was to happen in the White House map? Because I had to improvise a lot with the restored Bloodlines maps because of missing information.

Ford Schick is back.
The battery Park bum conversation is now accessible.
HDTP updated the unused sodacan textures, so I made use of them.
The unused security bot is now used, and given an AI overhaul.
Various unused sounds are made use of, but a lot are outright replaced with higher quality ones as the vanilla quality was p. poor.
I've asked KlauZ to Hi-resify the unused CouchLeather and ChairLeather skins, as more variety is needed for those models that are used so frequently throughout the game.
Only one music track is restored, as there's simply nowhere else appropriate to use the others, and so on.

Great, it seems most of the Cutting Room Floor stuff is already back ! How about the newspaper and the safe, is there anything that can be done about them? How about the answering machine messages at the airport and in Paul's appartment? Or the two weapon giving lines mentioned there? I managed to restore a lot of unused lines and conversations to Bloodlines and some of them were rather funny and worth including ! Also should I wait for GMDX 9.0 to do a DX replay or won't there be too many differences?

 

[laclongquan]

Back to original question: Both are equal in gameplay and setting. Bloodlines got the edge due to graphic, as I can mod in some nude stuffs. It's a big edge, really.

 

[Ash]

Great, it seems most of the Cutting Room Floor stuff is already back ! How about the newspaper and the safe, is there anything that can be done about them? How about the answering machine messages at the airport and in Paul's appartment? Or the two weapon giving lines mentioned there? I managed to restore a lot of unused lines and conversations to Bloodlines and some of them were rather funny and worth including ! Also should I wait for GMDX 9.0 to do a DX replay or won't there be too many differences?

Newspaper is fixed.
Safe demands that Manderley doesn't mind you standing there robbing it (each and every visit to boot), and for that reason has not been restored.

v9.0 will be a notable update, yet v8.0 is already hailed as the "definitive Deus Ex experience" and is Codex-approved. As a DX fan I would play both, it's designed for replayability after all (taking after the game itself), but if you've only played DX once years ago you're probably better off waiting for v9.0, assuming you're not much a fan.

 

[HansDampf]

As the final 9.6 UP will probably be out today

Delayed?
I'd like to start a new game. Should I wait for this?

 

[GuiltyofBeingTrite]

Delayed?
I'd like to start a new game. Should I wait for this?

 

[Wesp5]

Safe demands that Manderley doesn't mind you standing there robbing it (each and every visit to boot), and for that reason has not been restored.

Okay. I thought maybe there was a time when the guy was not in the room or the safe could be moved somewhere nearby where it makes sense. Still cool to finally meet someone doing similar stuff that I do! Also if the unused assets on the Cutting Room Floor page are all there are for DX, that's nothing compared to all the unused stuff I found in Bloodlines and it again shows how unfinished the game was when Activision forced Troika to release it .

As a DX fan I would play both, it's designed for replayability after all (taking after the game itself), but if you've only played DX once years ago you're probably better off waiting for v9.0, assuming you're not much a fan.

I'm still busy with Bloodlines right now and while I was rather disappointed when DX came out, it seems your work fixes a lot of things that annoyed me. So I'll probably wait for 9.0!

As for the next Bloodlines patch, HansDampf, The Patches Scrolls guys are working on a server issue, so it may take another day or two for the final UP 9.6 to be released. Sorry...

 

[Ash]

I was rather disappointed when DX came out

Compared to Half-Life

DX was one of the finest games made when it came out and it's still one of the finest games today. Even vanilla flaws and all. Half-Life is popamole in comparison.

Anyhow, yeah Bloodlines could have been one of the truly finest games if given more time. Thanks again for enabling us to play it without it falling apart.

 

[Wesp5]

DX was one of the finest games made when it came out and it's still one of the finest games today. Even vanilla flaws and all. Half-Life is popamole in comparison.

As I wrote I came from the FPS side of things, not the RPG one, and in the end it's just a matter of taste. Nevertheless, all of them are classics, still better than most modern games!

 

[Bashar]

I'm not a forum regular. I just came on because I wanted to see what the Codex thought of DX4 but this thread caught my attention. Little did I expect it to be a meeting of two great modders.

I'm actually one of those people who argued with Ash about DX's design principles way back in the day, so I can say with some credibility that his interpretation is not definitive; however, his extrapolation of the game mechanics are spot on. I don't think there's anybody who has put as much effort into making sure that their tweaks and additions remain faithful to the feel of the vanilla game, something that Human Renovation (and by extension, Revision) failed to do. Speaking as a purist, I still recommend GMDX over all of the other major mods for people who are looking to expand or modernize their DX experience without compromising the qualities that made the original special.

Getting back to the subject at hand, in terms of making levels that were aesthetically pleasing, relatively believable, and contributed to the overall atmosphere, Bloodlines wins hands down. Setting aside the difference in years, I think this is in large part due to most of the props in DX being physical objects while in Bloodlines avoided choking the CPU by gluing anything that wasn't essential to the ground, something that Human Revolution would later take to the next level. So I really, really like the art direction involved in Bloodlines maps and I think it largely holds up today but when I think of "level design" I look from an engineering rather than an artistic standpoint.

There's only a few maps in Bloodlines that reach for what I call the "Looking Glass standard", in which I include Deus Ex and Dishonored, of incorporating the environment as an element of gameplay. By and large, the maps in Bloodlines serve as a vessel or mechanism for delivering content. Notable exceptions are the Sabbat rail yard and the Giovanni mansion, though I give honorable mention to the Museum of Natural History, Grout's mansion, the Elizabeth Dane and parts of the Hunter stronghold... pretty much anywhere the game tried to focus on stealth. That's not to say that the other maps aren't good, but they're mainly good at being scenery while I was reacting to what was happening within.

With regard to writing, both titles were really well done; they both had an unbelievable premise but the respective writers managed to ground them into a narrative that was internally consistent and meaningful. Having said that, I think that Bloodlines wins for two reasons. First, it had the benefit of a tighter narrative. It focuses on a few characters situated in a single location and didn't stray too far out of its scope. Second, though partly in consequence, I felt that the dialogue especially was a little more natural and the characters more human.

Overall, I love both games and it's hard to say that one is better than the other because each does something really well and each are flawed in their own way. In the end I have to give my nod to Deus Ex because it's longer and I think offers more depth in its gameplay. But that doesn't stop me from loading up VTMB when I'm looking to be immersed in LA's seedy underworld.