Why do many RPG fans hate crafting?

[adrix89]

Another way to do "crafting" is to link it to trading. In an open world with actual meaningful travel this could work. Have specific resources available in certain locations.
This would cut one of the biggest annoyance which is ingredient grinding and make it about planning routes to get the stuff you need.

 

[Norfleet]

My guess is "because crafting, when it is not useless, is guaranteed to be the most metagamey thing in the game". Nothing about any game's crafting system is ever intuitive. You combine things, often found in arbitrary locations, in arbitrary quantities, to create arbitrary effects. Many of these effects will be unsuitable or utterly worthless, resulting in the destruction of potentially valuable and even irreplaceable ingredients. There is really no feasible way to intuitively understand any of these outcomes and the existence of a crafting system that is actually worth using necessitates metagaming...and many seem to hate that.

 

[flabbyjack]

TLDR, I'll probably come back and read this thread, but here's why I hate crafting.

It breaks the fourth wall (for the following reasons)
Items crafted by the player are often more expensive yet inferior to NPC crafted items. Of course you cannot tell this from the item recipe description!
Alternatively, it still annoys me when the crafted items are superior to NPC crafted items... why would the PC be able to craft items better than professional item crafters/shopkeepers, anyway?!?
You have to hunt around for crafting materials, which are often quite inane and random
Sometimes you have to craft materials to use in crafting
Crafting materials might sometimes maybe be purchasable from NPCs, who are scattered around the map and have no logic to why they have the crafting materials
Totally inane crafting recipes (Think minecraft)
Limited inventory (Even when you have a 'storage chest' its still a hassle to move around stacks of crafting materials) or limited GP to buy crafting supplies means I have to 'craft smart', so if I want to craft I have to learn the, often nuanced, crafting system. One solution to this would be to make crafting materials weigh zero, or allow players to craft using items in their storage container.

 

[Prime Junta]

Because usually the implementation is shit. It amounts to drudgery -- you're collecting stuff by rote, then doing stuff by rote, to get a rote result which usually just amounts to adding X points to some stat. Case in point, Pillars of Eternity. It's a dull system that doesn't open up any new gameplay dimensions, or serve as a driver for self-assigned goals. The only effect crafting has on the gameplay experience is that it lets you upgrade your fave items as you level up so you can keep them instead of ditching them for something different -- and whether this is a good thing or not is a matter of taste. (For the record, I do like that bit.)

It can be done well though: Arcanum as a technomancer is a fantastic example. Scouring the world for schematics and components is exciting in and of itself, you need to carefully consider character development to meet the crafting requirements while retaining the ability to use the stuff you craft, and the items you make have a massive gameplay impact -- sometimes in terms of raw power (hand cannon, elephant gun), sometimes in terms of fun (if not always super-effective, regrettably) new things to do (automata).

Crafting is like any other system: if you want it to work well, it has to be an organic part of the gameplay and mesh with the other systems. Give it the same attention as, say, the magic/spell system, and it can be fantastic. Treat it as a second-class simple optional add-on to fiddle with, and you might as well not bother.

 

[The Bishop]

I think in order to make crafting meaningful, a game needs to have a well defined strategic component (resource management, future planning). Having strategic component in a game means, among other things, that you can lose the game on strategic level: by running out of resources or not having appropriate answer to the challenge at hand. And while this is fine in some games (survival, rogue-like-likes), in most content heavy story focused RPGs this is a big no no. Getting stuck and not being able to progress any further, having to restart a 20-30 hour long playthrough is absolutely, utterly unacceptable. And this means that those types of RPGs can't have meaningful crafting. If you can't have meaningful crafting, why waste time with crafting at all?

 

[Theldaran]

It messes itemization up, methinks. Note how great games of the past such as BG and Diablo had no crafting. There were some game breaking items though. But that's also fun in its own way.

PS: I'm kinda aware Diablo isn't very loved in this forum, but I liked it, way back in 1999 or there.

 

[J_C]

It messes itemization up, methinks. Note how great games of the past such as BG and Diablo had no crafting. There were some game breaking items though. But that's also fun in its own way.

PS: I'm kinda aware Diablo isn't very loved in this forum, but I liked it, way back in 1999 or there.

I think Diablo 1-2 are liked by many here, it's just D3 which fucked things up.

 

[prodigydancer]

Crafting mostly falls under three categories:
1) Grossly overpowered (Morrowind says hello).
2) Mandatory. If you can get something you need only from crafting, it becomes just a time and resource sink.
3) Pointless.

Crafting itself is p. boring and it becomes infinitely worse if any kind of randomness is involved. Savescumming until you get the desired result - wow, that's awesome gameplay.

 

[TigerKnee]

D2 had a a minor "crafting" mechanic in the form of the Horadric Cube recipes.

They were mostly nice because you had some control over the final product depending on the level you craft them at - crafted Blood Gloves were usually very solid

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

D2 had a a minor "crafting" mechanic in the form of the Horadric Cube recipes.

They were mostly nice because you had some control over the final product depending on the level you craft them at - crafted Blood Gloves were usually very solid

Old-school crafting is a different beast to what modern devs consider crafting. There's a difference between finding gems and then applying them to armour/weapons - and - walking around the countryside looking for flowers to make minor health potions.

There's a difference between paying a blacksmith to craft better stats onto a weapon - and - collecting 10 Lead Bars, 3 Pommels before the blacksmith can craft you a better weapon.

There's a difference between finding specific items via a treasure hunt to fulfil a schematic/recipe/list that adds a couple of awesome items - and - basing your entire game around the idea that people might want to craft every single thing they wear/use.

I believe people here are mostly referring to the latter part of each sentence when they are replying to this vague and badly worded thread.

 

[cvv]

OP: "I'd like to know why people hate Hillary so much. But I'm not convinced by arguments like 'She's an evil corrupt lizard hell bent on destroying America'."

Yo OP don't tell me what to tell you. I hate RPG crafting EXACTLY because it makes finding loot useless. Either you get great loot by finding it or crafting it - either way the other option is always made superfluous. And "don't use it if you don't want" is a stupid argument, imma not going to pout and pass up a legendary uber sword, keeping my inferior penknkife instead, just because I'd have to craft it. And neither would anyone else.

Crafting exists only because craftfags DEMAND it in every fucking game out there otherwise their gender fluids get triggered. And devs indulge them. I like crafting as such, love to play survival games but RPG crafting almost always fucks up itemization beyond repair and I hate people who just don't give a shit about that. It's like someone who loves chocolate and they demand it in their breakfast eggs, in their steaks, in their burgers too.

 

[Doktor Best]

Crafting is often frowned upon because its often done poorly. Good crafting systems can enhance the game, wether it gives you a sense of connection to a faction (Gothic 2, becoming citizen of Khorinis), or conveying the feeling of having done something epic (Baldurs Gate 2, giving dragonscales to the master blacksmith), or enhancing exploration and looting in a meaningful way (Fallout New Vegas, Underrail)

 

[Azalin]

Crafting is usually banal shit and boring,collecting every single flower,root,piece of scrap and wood I find in every cave,nook and hole I search because I might need them 5 hours later to make some uber item is not fun,like other said before BG2 was a very good example on how to use limited crafting to make some legendary items and keep things interesting.

 

[cruelio]

- Crafting is never balanced. Either it makes the best shit in the game and is therefore a default skill or you can find shit on the floor that's as good or better, in which case no reason to invest the points.
- The actual crafting itself is always tedious, including juggling inventory for crafting trash and combing through every nook and cranny for crafting trash.
- There's nothing worse than opening a loot box and it's full of "rusty nail x3 piece of cloth x4 dildo x1."

Basically if I see any game that promotes crafting as a feature it's an instant no buy for me.

 

[Lurker King]

I'm not the biggest fan of it myself

You are not the biggest fan of cRPGs, period.

1) If I want to be a blacksmith I'll KS a blacksmith simulator.
2) Crafting typically makes the game too easy because devs balance for standard items. Or the crafted items serve no purpose because they are worse than the items you find in game.
3) The best crafting is in games like BG2 where you find shit all over the place and bring it to an expert to put together.

I think in order to make crafting meaningful, a game needs to have a well defined strategic component (resource management, future planning). Having strategic component in a game means, among other things, that you can lose the game on strategic level: by running out of resources or not having appropriate answer to the challenge at hand. And while this is fine in some games (survival, rogue-like-likes), in most content heavy story focused RPGs this is a big no no. Getting stuck and not being able to progress any further, having to restart a 20-30 hour long playthrough is absolutely, utterly unacceptable. And this means that those types of RPGs can't have meaningful crafting. If you can't have meaningful crafting, why waste time with crafting at all?

Yes, in order to make crafting meaningful, you need to implement a robust resource management, like Underrail did. The problem is how to make this resource management enjoyable. In Underrail everything is tied to crafting, from animals organs, to rags and pieces of metal. At the beginning is awesome, but it gets tiresome fast. The way to solve this issue is to scale down and limit the natural resources (no respawn, no million barrels and locks, etc.).

 

[Commissar Draco]

Simply put I am not interested in role playing an artisan same as I am not interested of LARPing the peasant to get my food; in most cases its either boring or game braking or both; what is fun is to find some rare component and to combine them by Master Smith whose daughter your party rescued from being brainwashed by local college Witches Coven to make unique gear like in NWN 1 and BG2... or to find rare components and upgrade your stuff like in Ass Effect 2.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Because it encourage hoarding of garbage, results in hoarding items in games with no crafting. Constantly at full capacility, wasting too much time at "what to drop" moments when you find something actually interesting and/or valuable.
Usually you wander through the world, from time to time pick something useful or something that can be exchanged for cash. No brainer, you might say...it's not like you are poor player in RPGs.
But in games with crafting it give you OCD or some other big letters mental disease that make your gameplay habits unhealthy.

No crafting - no cry, no time wasted at inventory management.
Most of the time all you need from crafting are healing items.

It's less problematic when you can drop items in containers (and keep them near teleports, like in Divinity games) and come back when you need them (jokes on you - most of the time I never come back for components).

 

[Lurker King]

No crafting - no cry, no time wasted at inventory management.

No damage, no time wasted with healing and positioning.

No enemies, no time wasted with fights and equipping.

No C&C, no time wasted with choices and dialogues.

That is circular reasoning, dude. You are just assuming that inventory management sucks.

Because it encourage hoarding of garbage, results in hoarding items in games with no crafting.

Which can be easily compensated by the fun you have making awesome weapons and using them.

 

[Snorkack]

I remember a few examples on the playstation 1/2 where crafting was a core gameplay element and quite fun, like parasite eve, vagrant story and dark chronicle.
But in most modern rpgs crafting is basically slapped on busywork. Now you could just ignore it for the most part. But crafting all to often comes hand in hand with a) inventory clutter and b) lame overall itemization. Plus, as the completionist I am I always find it hard to not be a hoarder because I fear missing out on the game's best equipment when not taking part in crafting.
So I too prefer not having crafting at all over having a half-assed slapped on crafting mechanic.
Gems, like in D2 and Torchlight are cool tho. They even add some layer of C&C to it without bearing aforementioned negative points of regular crafting.

 

[Lurker King]

But in most modern rpgs crafting is basically slapped on busywork. Now you could just ignore it for the most part. But crafting all to often comes hand in hand with a) inventory clutter and b) lame overall itemization. Plus, as the completionist I am I always find it hard to not be a hoarder because I fear missing out on the game's best equipment when not taking part in crafting.

The problem is the cargo cult mentality. Most developers just imitate what other successful games do without any logic behind it - see Fargo trying to implement multiplayer in W3 because it was sucessful in D:OS, for instance. Since the genre already has many complex systems that are difficult to implement, the tendency is that cRPGs get more and more cluttered with poorly implemented mini-games. In a sense, cRPGs are like living organisms that were composed of many other smaller organisms. Over time, things like crafting became more frequent because it helps to deliver the same type of experience that players wanted to have. When crafting is well implemented in a cRPG it is like a mitochondria in a cell, but when it is poorly implemented is like a vestigial organ of past species.

 

[Naraya]

I only like light crafting systems like for example in Guild Wars. Extensive crafting creates imbalance. I also hate the feeling that I have to look everywhere for every last bit of ingredients. Needless to say, I end up saving all of them and not crafting anything because I feel I might need it later - this was exactly the case with Pillars of Eternity.

 

[Naveen]

It makes me feel like I'm playing a hobo simulator, and thematically that usually doesn't even make sense.

I like Morrowing crafting, though: picking flowers, brewing potions, and punching mudcrabs. Relaxing.

 

[Xathrodox86]

Because it's usualy tideous, boring and badly made - see Skyrim or, god help you, Two Worlds. I don't recall a single RPG game, where crafting was made really well, so that I would want to do that, not need to do that.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Actually Two Worlds have neat system where two identical items can be merged into one bit better.
Unless you talk about TW2 where you dismantle items into components but even then - it's not as bad as other games...

 

[Theldaran]

I think Diablo 1-2 are liked by many here, it's just D3 which fucked things up.

Depends whom you ask. There's always the hipster that says that decline began with original Baldur's Gate, which is the same as saying that it began with Diablo 1 (because, without Diablo's success, there would be no BG and no IWD). And you have a high chance that said hipster wasn't even gaming at that time.