What if AoD sucks?

[Master_of_teh_Obvious]

It appears Codexia as a whole has already made up her mind about AoD being the next best thing since...food.

But, what if it isn't all peachy and dandy, as its being touted? MASSIVE flaws have already been uncovered in its wirting and its shoehorning (you are REQUIRED to get the map somehow, even if you don't want it!); what if other aspects of the game have similar issues, such as frameskip, bad coding (so the game stutters, runs unoptimaly even on highend rigs, et al.)

What if the game has issues of a non-tech nature, but of a gameplay nature? Say maybe quests are boring and uninspired, and/or they really have very few ways of doing them instead of the hyped multiple paths. What if you are being shoehorned into every quest, with only a yes/no option with regards to accepting it, instead of having devious roleplay intensive options such as "Hmm, I MIGHT do your quest IF you look the other way while I SLAY the wealthy client staying at your fine establishement.." etc

Or what if the game is buggy as hell?

Basically what I am saying that it will rock if the game is great, but perhaps we should wait for it to be released and played, instead of hyping it like gamespot hypes the lates crap from rockstar/behtesda etc and whatnot.

Thoughts?

 

[Gragt]

Maybe AoD will suck, it's a possibility. Just like Fallout 3 might after all be a stellar game. It's also a possibility.

What then?

You also mix different aspects together: the story, the choices, the quests, in the same bag as performances, possible bugs. It's easy to just envision things that way.

Technically I do not know much, but concerning quests and stories I think Vince already answered many times in interviews what they were trying to do with the story and the quests and the different ways to solve them.

It's a computer game, not a pnp campaign where you can try to drive the GM insane by refusing to do what he planned you to do.

 

[luckyb0y]

It appears Codexia as a whole has already made up her mind about AoD being the next best thing since...food.

But, what if it isn't all peachy and dandy, as its being touted? MASSIVE flaws have already been uncovered in its wirting and its shoehorning (you are REQUIRED to get the map somehow, even if you don't want it!); what if other aspects of the game have similar issues, such as frameskip, bad coding (so the game stutters, runs unoptimaly even on highend rigs, et al.)

What if the game has issues of a non-tech nature, but of a gameplay nature? Say maybe quests are boring and uninspired, and/or they really have very few ways of doing them instead of the hyped multiple paths. What if you are being shoehorned into every quest, with only a yes/no option with regards to accepting it, instead of having devious roleplay intensive options such as "Hmm, I MIGHT do your quest IF you look the other way while I SLAY the wealthy client staying at your fine establishement.." etc

Or what if the game is buggy as hell?

Basically what I am saying that it will rock if the game is great, but perhaps we should wait for it to be released and played, instead of hyping it like gamespot hypes the lates crap from rockstar/behtesda etc and whatnot.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't say that the map thing is a MASSIVE flaw. Maybe not as elegant solution as some would like, but certainly not a glaring flaw. I really can't think of any game that in some way or another doesn't force you into the storyline. It would require a perfect world simulator, where all NPC behaviour is emergent and we're still quite far off. The best we have now are games like GTA or Oblivion, which are quite basic in their simulation aspect. Most NPCs are mindless drones without any complex motivations that could influence their behaviour and spawn quests. All we have now are just dummies walking around, talking bollocks and going about their simple schedules. While I would love to see a game that is based only on procedural content generation and emergent gameplay I don't think we'll see one for quite some time.

As for AoD being bad game. Oh, well I'll move on, but I think it will at least decent.

 

[Mareus]

It appears Codexia as a whole has already made up her mind about AoD being the next best thing since...food.

Basically what I am saying that it will rock if the game is great, but perhaps we should wait for it to be released and played, instead of hyping it like gamespot hypes the lates crap from rockstar/behtesda etc and whatnot.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't say that the map thing is a MASSIVE flaw. Maybe not as elegant solution as some would like, but certainly not a glaring flaw. I really can't think of any game that in some way or another doesn't force you into the storyline. It would require a perfect world simulator, where all NPC behaviour is emergent and we're still quite far off. The best we have now are games like GTA or Oblivion, which are quite basic in their simulation aspect. Most NPCs are mindless drones without any complex motivations that could influence their behaviour and spawn quests. All we have now are just dummies walking around, talking bollocks and going about their simple schedules. While I would love to see a game that is based only on procedural content generation and emergent gameplay I don't think we'll see one for quite some time.

As for AoD being bad game. Oh, well I'll move on, but I think it will at least decent.

GTA and Oblivion the best what we have so far? Seriously? Have you even played games like Fallout, BG, PST, Bloodlines, KOTOR,...? There you really have a lot of options in the dialogs and some dialogs really have impact on the world and your character. There are many ways to make dialogs and roleplaying 100 times better than in games like Retardilion. Also don't forget the Wizardry or old Ultimas dialog system where you could type questions and the answers would appear based on the topic you typed into the question. Imagine how dialogs could look today if they just tried to improve that. I think there is still a lot of room to improve dialogs, because developers decided to concentrate on graphics since 2000 (maybe even sooner), and they are not even trying to develop something new or original when it comes to dialogs.

Personally I do not expect much from AoD. Still I will play it because VD really knows games, and I would like to see how a game looks like when made by a gamer who has similiar taste in games as I do. Even if VD fails with AoD, i think his next project will be a real success. He has the charisma to draw similar minded people together who will work as enthusiasts on his projects. That is always a good thing, as long as the money doesn't become the reason why he started all of this.

 

[elander_]

If AoD sucks it will be remembered as an act of courage from an heroic indie developer fighting against the masses of the unwashed and unwilling to bring rpgs forward from it's classic roots.

 

[luckyb0y]

GTA and Oblivion the best what we have so far? Seriously? Have you even played games like Fallout, BG, PST, Bloodlines, KOTOR,...? There you really have a lot of options in the dialogs and some dialogs really have impact on the world and your character. There are many ways to make dialogs and roleplaying 100 times better than in games like Retardilion. Also don't forget the Wizardry or old Ultimas dialog system where you could type questions and the answers would appear based on the topic you typed into the question. Imagine how dialogs could look today if they just tried to improve that. I think there is still a lot of room to improve dialogs, because developers decided to concentrate on graphics since 2000 (maybe even sooner), and they are not even trying to develop something new or original when it comes to dialogs.

Personally I do not expect much from AoD. Still I will play it because VD really knows games, and I would like to see how a game looks like when made by a gamer who has similiar taste in games as I do. Even if VD fails with AoD, i think his next project will be a real success. He has the charisma to draw similar minded people together who will work as enthusiasts on his projects. That is always a good thing, as long as the money doesn't become the reason why he started all of this.

I think you are missing my point. I was talking about emergent gameplay and world simulation. All these games you listed, while certainly great and in my opinion much better than GTA and Oblivion, have none of it. I said that is necessary to have that in order to avoid shoehorning player into your story. The best thing that comes to mind which actually somewhat succeeds is Dwarf Fortress - certainly much better than GTA or Oblivion, but ther is one major flaw - due to basic visuals it's appeal is limited. What's even worse the sheer amont of things that can happen in this game means you'll be hard pressed even with a full blown team to add graphical representation of what's happening. You'll need some sort of awesome procedural content generator so as I said it's pretty far of.

Or not:
http://introversion.co.uk/blog/index.php
Read the "it's all in your head" parts

As for the dialogue part. I can hardly see the room for improvement using dialogue trees. Sure you can pump up much more of those but it means a lots more development time, same constraints (you can't say whatever you want, everything predetermined) and testing nightmare. Some people are trying to improve that though:

http://www.interactivestory.net/

As for Iron Tower's second project - if AoD fails it just won't happen.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If AoD sucks it will be remembered as an act of courage from an heroic indie developer fighting against the masses of the unwashed and unwilling to bring rpgs forward from it's classic roots.

Of course, it can fail and suck in many different ways. I've never claimed that I'm making TEH GREAT GAEM; I can only hope to make a decent one. Still, should I fail, well, at least I tried.

...you are REQUIRED to get the map somehow, even if you don't want it!

And you are required to leave the vault even if you want to stay and start plotting against the Overseer. And you are required to work for LaCroix instead of starting your own clan or becoming a jazz musician. And you are required to drop everything and start investigating that gnome's story.

What's your point again?

Say maybe quests are boring and uninspired, and/or they really have very few ways of doing them instead of the hyped multiple paths.

That's what this thread was for.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... opic=149.0

Personally I do not expect much from AoD.

Purely out of curiosity, why? Considering that you say that we have similar taste in games and you think that I "really know games". What didn't click then?

 

[Mareus]

Personally I do not expect much from AoD.

Purely out of curiosity, why? Considering that you say that we have similar taste in games and you think that I "really know games". What didn't click then?

I don't know. Maybe I am just pessimistic because there are so many titles that let me down, I really stopped hoping. I have heard 'the game will have this and that' so many times I just don't believe in it anymore. Also I know how hard it is to create something. Very often you have to drop some things that you planned from the beggining. Also this is your first try if I am not mistaken, so I think that the great game will be the second one.

 

[Gragt]

Except we are not really (p)reviewers doing PR job for a company making empty promises. I guess Vince and his team showed that they are dedicated to make a good game and take into considerations the ideas of their fans. Not many developpers do that. That's why I am ready to believe Vince when he says he tries to make a good game instead of someone like Peter Hines.

Maybe the game will fail, it is a possibility, but they at least tried and that is at least something. As for the final result I guess we all have to wait and see.

 

[sqeecoo]

---
Pete: Well don't you understand that if the RPGs fail this year, next year you're going to have to have another blood sacrifice?! And next year no one else but the king of the Codex will do? If the RPGs fail VD, next year your people will kill you!

VD: They will not fail!
---

Anyway, anything is always possible, but have a look at the let's play thread. The forumites picked the choices, all the quests and areas were more than excellent. The map thing was much less jarring than the ring "hook" in Arcanum. VD is encouraging criticism and taking it seriously. Even if the writing and quests are mediocre, the polish and structure (i.e. emphasis on C&C) will still make it a brilliant game.

 

[pkt-zer0]

What's your point again?

That YOU CANNOT COMPLETE FALLOUT WITHOUT BEING FORCED INTO COMBAT.

Anyhow, if AoD sucks, I'll blame Vince for not beta testing it properly. Vince can then blame piracy for the low sales, make an FPS spinoff of AoD on consoles, and everyone wins.



Seriously though, I'll only be pissed off if AoD will be a good game and fail despite that. If it sucks, then well, they tried, but failed. It happens.

 

[Master_of_teh_Obvious]

VD's been working pretty hard on this as has ihis team, that alone is reason for this to be successful. Also I would like to mention the ring in arcanum could be tossed away at will and you could still beat the game.

 

[Elwro]

If AoD sucks, then 2=3

 

[sqeecoo]

VD's been working pretty hard on this as has ihis team, that alone is reason for this to be successful. Also I would like to mention the ring in arcanum could be tossed away at will and you could still beat the game.

Yes, but you had to go to Schuyler's and Sons, the makers of the ring? Right?

By the way, as far as I can see, beside PST AoD has the best main quest hook - while it revolves around the map and the temple on it, it allows for a wide variety of motivations for pursuing the quest, which, as far as I know, can also be done in different ways.

 

[inwoker]

Is this adhaira?

 

[Kavax]

Yes, but you had to go to Schuyler's and Sons, the makers of the ring? Right?

Well... no...

You can go straight to Gilbert Bates or the Black Mountain Clan.

 

[sqeecoo]

Really? Cool! But do you have any motivation/reason/explanation for that course within the game?

 

[Dhruin]

Seriously though, I'll only be pissed off if AoD will be a good game and fail despite that. If it sucks, then well, they tried, but failed. It happens.

Just curious - define "fail" in this case. Or success.

 

[Gragt]

That's almost asking for a lolcat.

 

[pkt-zer0]

Seriously though, I'll only be pissed off if AoD will be a good game and fail despite that. If it sucks, then well, they tried, but failed. It happens.

Just curious - define "fail" in this case. Or success.

Depends on which "fail" you're referring to.
The two possibilities I tried to outline were AoD becoming a spiffy game, just not selling enough units so that Vince closes shop as a result, being a financial failure. The other alternative would be AoD only having the potential to be a spiffy game, and the team failing to realize that potential, because they were lacking talent, perceptivity, whatever.

 

[Elhoim]

Seriously though, I'll only be pissed off if AoD will be a good game and fail despite that. If it sucks, then well, they tried, but failed. It happens.

Just curious - define "fail"

 

[spacemoose]

if aod sucks, I'm going to come down to bumfuck alberta, or wherever VD lives and give him a piece of my mind, by which I mean I will not have buttsex with him. and I expect that most here will do the same

there's nothing worse than insincere pleasantries

 

[shihonage]

Is this adhaira?

It is but one of its many faces.

 

[Lord Chambers]

its shoehorning (you are REQUIRED to get the map somehow, even if you don't want it!)

God I want to spray you down the street with a firehose.


I found Vince's answer in the latest interview to be persuasive:

The playable character and what motivates him is a unique and ever-present issue for RPG development. You can make him a part of your universe, giving him friends, memories, a family and while it can help solve the problem of motivation it surely violates the agency of the player; indeed, it voids all later development of that character. Equally so, the tabula rasa playable character makes the player wonder, "Why am I doing this again?" What is your approach to this problem?

Well, it takes two to tango. The player is expected to buy into the story and go along with it. The developer is expected to respect the player and spare him the pain of "You are an emo kid with an attitude who won't rest until his beloved kingdom of Animia is freed from some emo evil".

I think that Fallout nailed it perfectly. Your character draws the short straw and is sent to look for a water chip in the wasteland. That setup covers different motivations, interests, and reasons. You may want to find a water chip because you want to get back to the safety of the vault. Or maybe you are glad to get out of the claustrophobic vault and want to explore the new world and see what it has to offer.

AoD's main quest revolves around locating an ancient temple. Obviously if the player says the he/she doesn't care about some temple and would like to settle down and open a bakery instead, then there is nothing we can do to help. Providing artificial motivations like "you father, whom you love oh so dearly, went to look for this temple and you won't rest until you find your dad" is kinda lame, so we help the player to find an object (a map) that will sooner or later lead him/her to one of the three different parties that are interested in that temple for very different reasons. Counting your character's natural curiosity (we do our best to interest the player (and thus the character) in the temple), that's 4 different reasons to get involved in the story.

So, essentially: You come up with the story and the hook (in this case, it would be the map and the temple it leads to) the player supplies his own motivation?

Not exactly. We provide motivations within the story. Since it looks like I have to be specific: You acquire a map leading to an ancient, pre-war temple. The temple is associated with a deity who was known as The Artificer and whose name was associated with many clever gadgets and engines of war. Then we have three different main factions. One wants to seal the temple to prevent the other two factions from increasing their power. Another faction wants to change the balance of power and needs to get their hands on one of the fabled engines of war that the temple might still have. The last faction represents religious fanaticism; they want to restore the deity and start a new era. So, these are the different reasons and motivations that will be offered to your character. If you accept the setting and the story, it won't be hard to find your character's place in it and find reasons that fit your character.

 

[Cthulhugoat]

Decadence's Gate