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American Hare
- Thread starter Chefe
- Start date
Kingston
Arcane
No, that's the gayest solution because now you are implying what my character is thinking. Before it was implying just what he was going to say, not what my bunny is thinking.
Hory
Erudite
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2003
- Messages
- 3,002
In theory, those changes aren't necessarily good or bad. We'll have to see how they are implemented. Regarding the dialogue system, it's absurd to put the explanations in brackets when it's understandable from the words what the content of the communication is.Angler said:
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the style of the writing seems a bit too try-hard / artificial. Good writing doesn't have to be particularly artistic. Try to be more natural, eg. "The old priest looks down at you with calm."
Also, since Mass Effect came up, I'm curious - what are supposed to be the advantages of not presenting the entire content of what you're about to say? Doesn't this only leave room for "but I didn't want to say it like that!" dissatisfaction?
Chefe
Erudite
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,731
How is that artistic? The writing style is meant to be blunt and to the point, so the player doesn't get bored to fucking death because the game has Tolkien syndrome. I don't want a huge block of meaningless, non-gameplay relevant text, but I also don't want it to be entirely robotic and artifical. Also, saying "The old priest looks down at you with calm." doesn't make any sense. He looks down at you with calm? Calm what? Not to be an asshole, but I'm guessing English isn't your first language.
As for the advantages, first and foremost is that it reduces clutter. Also, this isn't the typical RPG where you choose a fully typed response and the NPC replies back. It's even going further than Mass Effect in this particular implementation. You choose a response and a segment is acted out based on it.
Concerning the "I didn't want to say it like that" dissatisfaction, any input on how I can make the choices more intuitive is welcome. In fact, contrary to what you're implying, the alternate system actually reduces the effects of this problem. A string of text can be interpreted any way, but if you want your character to reason with him, then you choose the "Reason with him" response, rather than "We can attempt to change the situation, but we must still show respect to those who think differently." which could go so far as to be interpreted as outright scolding him for his thoughts, which is the exact opposite of what this choice does in this situation.
Kingston, implying what your character is thinking is the whole point. A collection of choices your character can make is presented, and you choose one based on how you want your character to think. Your comment makes no sense.
As for the advantages, first and foremost is that it reduces clutter. Also, this isn't the typical RPG where you choose a fully typed response and the NPC replies back. It's even going further than Mass Effect in this particular implementation. You choose a response and a segment is acted out based on it.
Concerning the "I didn't want to say it like that" dissatisfaction, any input on how I can make the choices more intuitive is welcome. In fact, contrary to what you're implying, the alternate system actually reduces the effects of this problem. A string of text can be interpreted any way, but if you want your character to reason with him, then you choose the "Reason with him" response, rather than "We can attempt to change the situation, but we must still show respect to those who think differently." which could go so far as to be interpreted as outright scolding him for his thoughts, which is the exact opposite of what this choice does in this situation.
Kingston, implying what your character is thinking is the whole point. A collection of choices your character can make is presented, and you choose one based on how you want your character to think. Your comment makes no sense.
Faceless
Novice
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 91
I think it's better to have the dialogue options reflect the outcome of what you will say rather than be the first line of a much longer speech.
- It's blasphemy to assume what God is thinking.
This reads like a plain rejection of the priest, but in reality you have it set up to be an attempt at persuading/reasoning with him.
Try something like this instead:
-We shouldn't be quick to judge here; it could be a test.
Alternatively make sure there won't be any surprises in the outcome of our selection by prefixing the options with something to show the type of response we're picking.
ie. - [Reason] It's blasphemy to assume what God is thinking.
- It's blasphemy to assume what God is thinking.
This reads like a plain rejection of the priest, but in reality you have it set up to be an attempt at persuading/reasoning with him.
Try something like this instead:
-We shouldn't be quick to judge here; it could be a test.
Alternatively make sure there won't be any surprises in the outcome of our selection by prefixing the options with something to show the type of response we're picking.
ie. - [Reason] It's blasphemy to assume what God is thinking.
Hory
Erudite
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- Oct 1, 2003
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- 3,002
It looks like it's trying to be artistic because of the artificial enumeration of adjectives and their synonyms. If the whole idea can be expressed with fewer words, then it's not very blunt.Angler said:
That's the problem, those phrases do seem artificial. Just a string of short sentences, half of the times with the verb "to be". Here's a good example:
"He nodded at the Martian landscape stretching flat and desolate in the light of the nearer moon, beyond the glass of the port."
If it was written in your style, it would be something like:
"Beyond the glass of the port is the Martian landscape. It is flat, desolate. Light shines from the nearer moon. You nod at it." Which version would be easier for a robot to generate?
It's not my first language, but since "calm" is also a noun, I don't see why it would have to be "calm something". Anyway, the point was to use "to be" less and to decrease the number of short sentences.
Oh, well if the segment is lengthy, it would definitely be overkill to include all the words.
If some people interpret text incorrectly if presented with it upfront, they could just as well have a problem in interpreting after it has been said by the player character. The point in letting the player choose his words is that there's good reasoning and there's bad reasoning. The player's contribution would be in tracing the good version, in the same way that they're responsible for good tactics in combat, even if they depend on the character's skill.
Also, constantly picking "Reason with X" could get old pretty quick.
Chefe
Erudite
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,731
Faceless said:
Good idea. Making it a short summary of what you will say sounds logical and intuitive.
Hory said:It looks like it's trying to be artistic because of the artificial enumeration of adjectives and their synonyms. If the whole idea can be expressed with fewer words, then it's not very blunt.
That's the problem, those phrases do seem artificial. Just a string of short sentences, half of the times with the verb "to be". Here's a good example:
"He nodded at the Martian landscape stretching flat and desolate in the light of the nearer moon, beyond the glass of the port."
If it was written in your style, it would be something like:
"Beyond the glass of the port is the Martian landscape. It is flat, desolate. Light shines from the nearer moon. You nod at it." Which version would be easier for a robot to generate?
Is it bad that I like the second one better?
Like I said, I don't want huge blocks of meaningless Tolkien-esque text, but I don't want it to be entirely robotic. Some robotic is good... after all, it's a game.
It's one of those weird English things. Calm can't stand alone, unless you're talking in nautical terms (i.e. "looked out over the calm."). It would have to be calm "something", or "something" calm. Otherwise, it doesn't sound right... not that the rest of this damn language sounds right, but I digress.
Yea, I see. I'm going to look at what I can get out of Faceless' suggestion. Now that I look back, saying "Try to reason with him" is idiotic. Of course the player who's actually playing, and not just seeing how far he can push NPCs, will want to reason with him. It kind of defeats my purpose of dialog being natural.
- What does he think should be done?
- Carlos has a plan he could use.
- You have a plan he could use.
- We shouldn't judge God's actions; it could be a test.
- We shouldn't judge God's actions; does he challenge the Almighty?
- We can work on a solution; but we should not force our beliefs.
Huge work in progress, I know.
DraQ
Arcane
Mild interest, may increase later (when the project nears completion and is less likely to be scraped).
Edit:
Looks promising, so far.
Edit:
Looks promising, so far.
Joff1981
Educated
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2006
- Messages
- 59
I'm interested in this project but I'm a little concerned that it may not actually go anywhere. I think this because of the announcement of Springsteen RPG and the other cancelled announcements since starting American Hare as well as the numerous changes/schizophrenic decisions made about the shape of AH in the future.
In my opinion you should concentrate your efforts on fleshing out the story as you have been doing using Dia and not worrying too much about the implementation side of things or concerning yourself with how to implement the things that you want in the game. Once you have a clear idea of how the game would look as a whole you can then start the process of implementation with a much better idea as to the relative importance of any features. This way you at least have something complete if you struggle with coding and it will make it easier to return to the project at a later date or to help bring in others to help with art or coding.
In my opinion you should concentrate your efforts on fleshing out the story as you have been doing using Dia and not worrying too much about the implementation side of things or concerning yourself with how to implement the things that you want in the game. Once you have a clear idea of how the game would look as a whole you can then start the process of implementation with a much better idea as to the relative importance of any features. This way you at least have something complete if you struggle with coding and it will make it easier to return to the project at a later date or to help bring in others to help with art or coding.
Joff1981
Educated
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2006
- Messages
- 59
I'm not sure about the buttons for World Map, Skills and Inventory.
From what you have said already skills are fixed at the start of the game so it would make more sense to display them on screen at all times since you aren't requiring a fancy interface to adjust them and there aren't that many of them so they don't need a lot of real estate.
You haven't really mentioned much about the inventory system in the game so I don't really know how you are planning it but I would assume that each inventory item only comes into play during certain parts of the story and there is no need for inventory manipulation or combination of items and so my thoughts on this are the same as for Skills.
Unless you are allowing travel at any point in the game rather than at fixed points at the end of each passage of play I don't see the need to have a button to bring up the world map. Instead when selecting the option to leave your current location in dialogue it would bring up the world map to allow you to select your new destination.
Good to see that it's coming along though, just don't be tempted to rush it out just to satisfy us lot as we're pretty ungrateful sorts.
From what you have said already skills are fixed at the start of the game so it would make more sense to display them on screen at all times since you aren't requiring a fancy interface to adjust them and there aren't that many of them so they don't need a lot of real estate.
You haven't really mentioned much about the inventory system in the game so I don't really know how you are planning it but I would assume that each inventory item only comes into play during certain parts of the story and there is no need for inventory manipulation or combination of items and so my thoughts on this are the same as for Skills.
Unless you are allowing travel at any point in the game rather than at fixed points at the end of each passage of play I don't see the need to have a button to bring up the world map. Instead when selecting the option to leave your current location in dialogue it would bring up the world map to allow you to select your new destination.
Good to see that it's coming along though, just don't be tempted to rush it out just to satisfy us lot as we're pretty ungrateful sorts.
It appears that right now you're going for one of those "choose your adventure" books. The UI design looks nice and clean, but am I correct to understand that the actual game doesn't exist yet ?
I mean, what would "Adjust your hat" choice do ?
I mean, what would "Adjust your hat" choice do ?
Chefe
Erudite
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,731
I'm working alot, and school is increasingly difficult (new major, new hurdles). But most of all, the programming is holding me up from completion.
I have narrowed the game down. It won't be as big in scope as it has gotten, because I simply do not have the resources.
- The locations have been narrowed back down to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and Arizona.
- Jobs have been cut.
- The party member idea has been cut. I don't remember if I really went into detail here, but there were three different party members you could have join you. Juan Carlos' interactions have been reduced as well.
- The number of main characters has shrunk considerably.
- There is no longer a time limit on the main quest (previously 3 in game years), or on anything else for that matter (such as the first combat example).
- The story is going through a major rehaul.
It's a game about a rabbit (technically, a hare) who wakes up in Mexico with no clue as to who he is or why he's a talking animal, and the resulting tale that insues.
I have narrowed the game down. It won't be as big in scope as it has gotten, because I simply do not have the resources.
- The locations have been narrowed back down to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and Arizona.
- Jobs have been cut.
- The party member idea has been cut. I don't remember if I really went into detail here, but there were three different party members you could have join you. Juan Carlos' interactions have been reduced as well.
- The number of main characters has shrunk considerably.
- There is no longer a time limit on the main quest (previously 3 in game years), or on anything else for that matter (such as the first combat example).
- The story is going through a major rehaul.
It's a game about a rabbit (technically, a hare) who wakes up in Mexico with no clue as to who he is or why he's a talking animal, and the resulting tale that insues.
Chefe
Erudite
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,731
I give up.
The state of the modern RPG genre is appalling and I want nothing to do with it. Plus, I'm not a programmer.
Here's the backstory for everyone who was interested.
Back story
2167 – Doctor Gold is born
2175 – Doctor Gold’s first pet, a black-tailed jackrabbit named Icarus, dies of natural causes
2186 – Doctor Gold graduates college with honors in Biology
2190 – Doctor Gold begins gene splicing project
2200 – Doctor Gold relocates to an underground bunker in Panama
2238 – Jack Boone, father of Tex, sells his sperm for money
2240 – Doctor Gold perfects surrogate techniques in female rabbits, dogs, and rats
2244 – Doctor Gold successfully creates the first human/rabbit hybrid, Icarus II
2245 – Icarus II dies of natural causes
2245 – Icarus III is born
2250 – Tex is born
2261 – Icarus III dies of natural causes
2261 – Doctor Gold purchases Jack’s sperm from a bank to create a new hybrid, Icarus IV
2263 – Icarus IV, a human/rabbit hybrid who possesses intelligence, is born
2267 – The Icarus IV intelligence experiments are started
2275 – Achilles, another intelligent human/rabbit hybrid, is born
2279 – Icarus IV kills Achilles in a fit of rage
2279 – Icarus IV is locked up in a remote area and subjugated to intensive physical testing
2280 – Achilles II is born
2280 – Rex, an intelligent human/dog hybrid, is born
2283 – Achilles II begins the intelligence experiments
2285 – Rex begins servitude experiments
2286 – Icarus IV escapes from his cell, and the bunker, with the help of Rex
2287 – Icarus IV wanders the desert unseen, and collapses near Santa Rosalía in Baja California.
2287 – Icarus IV is found by a church layman
2287 – Icarus IV, thought to be a demon, is locked up in the house of a priest
Doctor Gold initially begins the gene splicing experiments to resolve his issues with the death of his childhood rabbit by creating an enhanced replacement. He believes the soul of his dead pet will inhabit the body of his most successful project, which by the end of the story turns out to be Icarus IV. Apart from this, he is funded by a secret internal United States government agency, who wants to resolve human suffering by making an animal race that will serve as slave workers and military cannon fodder.
How Doctor Gold is able to live for so long, and what caused your initial amnesia, will remain a secret. Also, the "Tex, I am your brother!" scene was going to be fantastic.
The state of the modern RPG genre is appalling and I want nothing to do with it. Plus, I'm not a programmer.
Here's the backstory for everyone who was interested.
Back story
2167 – Doctor Gold is born
2175 – Doctor Gold’s first pet, a black-tailed jackrabbit named Icarus, dies of natural causes
2186 – Doctor Gold graduates college with honors in Biology
2190 – Doctor Gold begins gene splicing project
2200 – Doctor Gold relocates to an underground bunker in Panama
2238 – Jack Boone, father of Tex, sells his sperm for money
2240 – Doctor Gold perfects surrogate techniques in female rabbits, dogs, and rats
2244 – Doctor Gold successfully creates the first human/rabbit hybrid, Icarus II
2245 – Icarus II dies of natural causes
2245 – Icarus III is born
2250 – Tex is born
2261 – Icarus III dies of natural causes
2261 – Doctor Gold purchases Jack’s sperm from a bank to create a new hybrid, Icarus IV
2263 – Icarus IV, a human/rabbit hybrid who possesses intelligence, is born
2267 – The Icarus IV intelligence experiments are started
2275 – Achilles, another intelligent human/rabbit hybrid, is born
2279 – Icarus IV kills Achilles in a fit of rage
2279 – Icarus IV is locked up in a remote area and subjugated to intensive physical testing
2280 – Achilles II is born
2280 – Rex, an intelligent human/dog hybrid, is born
2283 – Achilles II begins the intelligence experiments
2285 – Rex begins servitude experiments
2286 – Icarus IV escapes from his cell, and the bunker, with the help of Rex
2287 – Icarus IV wanders the desert unseen, and collapses near Santa Rosalía in Baja California.
2287 – Icarus IV is found by a church layman
2287 – Icarus IV, thought to be a demon, is locked up in the house of a priest
Doctor Gold initially begins the gene splicing experiments to resolve his issues with the death of his childhood rabbit by creating an enhanced replacement. He believes the soul of his dead pet will inhabit the body of his most successful project, which by the end of the story turns out to be Icarus IV. Apart from this, he is funded by a secret internal United States government agency, who wants to resolve human suffering by making an animal race that will serve as slave workers and military cannon fodder.
How Doctor Gold is able to live for so long, and what caused your initial amnesia, will remain a secret. Also, the "Tex, I am your brother!" scene was going to be fantastic.
I get it. This thread from the start was an intentional parody of "hay I haev graet idea 4 gaem" thread, which now ran into its logical conclusion.
Sovy Kurosei
Erudite
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
- Messages
- 1,535
Why not try building the game in something like RPGMaker XP/VX? You can do a lot with just if-else statements and judacious use of global flags.
Sovy Kurosei said:
I agree. RPG maker VX is really easy to use and you can do almost what ever you imagine with it. Resources are also easy to find and the community will help you out if you get stuck.
The most improtantly, C&C are so easy to make even a retard with no programming knowledge can figure it out in a matter of hours. Basicly you have a function (IF) you are (XX) learned this will happen, (ELSE) this happens. I started using VX 14 days ago and already I think I am pretty good at it. Map making is also very easy, so if you need any help just ask man.I really liked your ideas and it would be a shame if you just abandon the whole project. I tried AGS, Inform7, Engine001, some game editors, and all of those programs were just too damn hard to learn, especially when you wanted doing something more complex. RPG Maker VX is really simple in doing the complex things.
hpmons
Novice
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Messages
- 29
Id imagine the problem with RPGMaker is firstly the graphics - they arent to everyones taste, and transforming this idea into a graphical game would be a major overhaul in ideas.
Secondly, while I dont know about the XP/VX versions, the older versions of RPGMaker only had four lines of text that you could display before pressing enter; presumably something you can change more easily with the addition of Ruby in XP/VX, but its still not the best way to go for intricate dialog trees.
What I find really frustrating (as Ive also been interested in gamebook-style computer games) is the lack of any sort of engine (if that is the right word?) for text-based games, other than the Interactive Fiction style "take knife from table" commands. Good programmers seem far more interested in graphics-based games, so there are even relatively few text-based that I can think of.
I dont know if it would be of any use to you, but there is an online (though not multiplayer) game called Sryth, which I think is done in php; it doesnt have extensive dialog trees, but Id imagine its not too hard. I dont know how your saving system would work with this, and since I know little about these things there are probably a hundred other problems with the suggestion, but I thought Id mention it.
Secondly, while I dont know about the XP/VX versions, the older versions of RPGMaker only had four lines of text that you could display before pressing enter; presumably something you can change more easily with the addition of Ruby in XP/VX, but its still not the best way to go for intricate dialog trees.
What I find really frustrating (as Ive also been interested in gamebook-style computer games) is the lack of any sort of engine (if that is the right word?) for text-based games, other than the Interactive Fiction style "take knife from table" commands. Good programmers seem far more interested in graphics-based games, so there are even relatively few text-based that I can think of.
I dont know if it would be of any use to you, but there is an online (though not multiplayer) game called Sryth, which I think is done in php; it doesnt have extensive dialog trees, but Id imagine its not too hard. I dont know how your saving system would work with this, and since I know little about these things there are probably a hundred other problems with the suggestion, but I thought Id mention it.
Hory
Erudite
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2003
- Messages
- 3,002
Interactive Fiction's interactive model can only be praised, since it is more flexible than pretty much any other game system. If only non-text-based games had that kind of freedom. I think that through IF systems you can even make CYOA-style games, but even if you don't, they'd be pretty easy to program from scratch.hpmons said:
hpmons
Novice
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Messages
- 29
If you could direct me to a model which allows CYOA-style games as opposed to entering commands, Id be eternally grateful.
Yes, IF things may be very flexible, but they seem to incline themselves much more towards adventures than RPGs. I find typing in things, and then realising that Im too vague or I havent done things in quite the right order and Im told "You need to pick up the knife before you can use it" ruins any sense of immersion.
As for programming, whenever I think about it I just feel so hopeless. Even moreso when I see threads like this where people have such good ideas, and more motivation to put them into practice than I do, and yet its seemingly abandoned.
Yes, IF things may be very flexible, but they seem to incline themselves much more towards adventures than RPGs. I find typing in things, and then realising that Im too vague or I havent done things in quite the right order and Im told "You need to pick up the knife before you can use it" ruins any sense of immersion.
As for programming, whenever I think about it I just feel so hopeless. Even moreso when I see threads like this where people have such good ideas, and more motivation to put them into practice than I do, and yet its seemingly abandoned.
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