So, what's your favorite RPG of all time? Why?

[Ivan]

Combat:

 

[anvi]

EverQuest for online, Baldur's Gate 2 for offline. It was just so good. It was a close call with some others though, one of the Icewinds was maybe more fun for me because it was more combat focused and the combat was really good.

 

[ilitarist]

There is a good reason why we talk about decline. Older games are not good because they are older (or because I am older), they are good because back then the industry was not trying to appeal to idiots.

Bad argument. There are no old games that were as demanding as many modern popular games. And some of the most popular games are insanely complex, like all those RTS and MOBAs.

 

[aweigh]

There are no old games that were as demanding as many modern popular games

insanely complex

RTS and MOBA

 

[anvi]

No, MOBAs are very simple. You have 4 spells at the most, some heroes only have 2, and then you sometimes have a few clicky items. There is nothing complex about that at all. Also most of the abilities are different looking versions of other abilities, so one hero might have an area stun because he is a big gorilla, and another hero might have an area stun because he is a giant beetle that brings spikes out the ground. Different names and different graphics but the exact same thing, and half the things you can use work the same way. It is very challenging to get good at moving the characters and playing them smart and having them interact well with the others on your team, and timing your attacks to hit the enemy that is running in circles to dodge you, but it is not complex. Challenging != complex.

And RTS's I can't be bothered explaining but there are not many RTSs today and none of them are as good as Tiberian Sun from 1999. And again, they are all about actions per minute. If you click "Build War Factory" then "Produce 10 tanks" And then "Click your tanks and click them on enemy base" faster than your opponent, then you win. That is all to do with how fast you click shit, not how complex the game is.

 

[ilitarist]

This is an explanation a la "programming is really simple, you just type things on keyboard, same as with chatting". MOBAs are insanely complex. No singleplayer RPG even approaches this complexity. None.

You don't have that many abilities - but most of the time those abilities have alternative modes and special rules and so on. You have hundreds of items, many of those are acitve. You have dozens of playable characters and they are indeed different. There's a lot of mechanical challenging stuff that is a must for any player but at the same time there's interplay of abilities and characters and stats and so on.

APM argument always shows a person who didn't really play RTS in MP. Huge APM you see from Korean champions dodging attacks may help you but even that skill will lose to a grand strategy. The real argument you'd may use is a necessary build order knowledge. This means that you'll need numerous games before you understand what your enemy is doing. Still force good player use 10 clicks per minute and he will still win average person.

 

[anvi]

This is an explanation a la "programming is really simple, you just type things on keyboard, same as with chatting".

No it isn't, programming has millions of things to learn and do and is very complex.

MOBAs are insanely complex. No singleplayer RPG even approaches this complexity. None.

You don't have that many abilities - but most of the time those abilities have alternative modes and special rules and so on. You have hundreds of items, many of those are acitve. You have dozens of playable characters and they are indeed different. There's a lot of mechanical challenging stuff that is a must for any player but at the same time there's interplay of abilities and characters and stats and so on.

But that is in the entirety of the game which you never play in one go. With that kind of argument you could say WoW has 3000 spells and 400,000 items so is the most complex game ever... What matters is how the actual gameplay works, and at any one time you are only controlling one character with a maximum of 4 abilities and some inventory clickies. The majority of what gets the job done, is what your 4+ team mates do and it is mostly just someone timing a good stun, and everyone clicking a few nukes.

APM argument always shows a person who didn't really play RTS in MP. Huge APM you see from Korean champions dodging attacks may help you but even that skill will lose to a grand strategy. The real argument you'd may use is a necessary build order knowledge. This means that you'll need numerous games before you understand what your enemy is doing. Still force good player use 10 clicks per minute and he will still win average person.

Build order knowledge is something a day 1 noob can google. "Wot order to bild stuff?!" has to be one of the highest google searches for every modern RTS. You read what order to build stuff, then you just have to click it all quickly. Yeah there is plenty of skill involved as well, but it is far from being the most complex thing in gaming.

 

[aweigh]

obligatory mention that fighting games are 10x more demanding and complex than rts/moba.

 

[Barnabas]

Baldurs Gate was always my favorite but now Baldurs Gate 2 is my favorite. The game is so epic, I defeated 2 dragons already, illithid swuad, beholders, Lich, and I’m only on chapter 2. Once I found the most OP spells the game became a breeze

 

[ilitarist]

But that is in the entirety of the game which you never play in one go. With that kind of argument you could say WoW has 3000 spells and 400,000 items so is the most complex game ever... What matters is how the actual gameplay works, and at any one time you are only controlling one character with a maximum of 4 abilities and some inventory clickies. The majority of what gets the job done, is what your 4+ team mates do and it is mostly just someone timing a good stun, and everyone clicking a few nukes.

In the actual MOBA gameplay you *can* work with simple approach and be useful but the skill cap is high. All those things in the game will matter in the short 30 minutes game. You have 10 champions in the game out of 100, yes. But in a typical fight you don't just think which of 4 abilities to cast but also who to cast them on - which depends on character type, character successfullness, character build and specific defenses against your attacks - and of course you have to know what other players are doing, if there are neutral guys nearby, if there's some global effect working and so on and so on. I'd gladly play any singleplayer game with same complexity but even the ones that seem kinda close in complexity are poorly balanced and don't require you to know or use most of the stuff in the game (see every RPG in existence).

The point of build orders is to understand what your opponent is doing. Even if you google one of the buildorders it doesn't help you if you don't understand your enemy's strategy.

 

[Vibalist]

Bloodlines, although by all means it shouldn't be. It's unpolished, most of the animations look like shit, combat is weak, gunplay is clunky and it becomes a series of ultra shitty dungeon crawls towards the end. However, it's that one game I keep returning to once a year, like others do with Deus Ex or Thief. I can still immerse myself in the atmosphere, even after all this time (Steam says I've clocked in 200 hours, just shoot me already).

 

[anvi]

In the actual MOBA gameplay you *can* work with simple approach and be useful but the skill cap is high.

The point of build orders is to understand what your opponent is doing. Even if you google one of the buildorders it doesn't help you if you don't understand your enemy's strategy.

The skill cap is massive but still not convinced they are the most complex games ever. I love them but I think they could do more. The only way I can keep it interesting long term is by playing all the heroes. I play one for a few weeks and get bored of it so move on to the next one. I also think some of the mechanics could be better. Like some characters have really interesting abilities, but it is mostly supports and whatnot. Depending on the game anyway.

 

[Overboard]

Honourable mentions for:

and

 

[Leitz]

Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn -best "main stream" CRPG.

You had to do this right? At least you didn't say Arcanum or Planescape.

 

[octavius]

Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn -best "main stream" CRPG.

You had to do this right? At least you didn't say Arcanum or Planescape.

I'm sorry, was it the wrong answer?

 

[Gregz]

Nostalgia fags everywhere

Welcome to the board.

 

[Sykar]

Leitz explain to me why my list is "shit".

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Elminage Gothic because it introduced me to the joys of dungeon crawling while boasting the perfect balance of character and party building and advancement mechanics with flawless turn-based combat.

It showed me that an RPG should put gameplay first, and story second and this way it will be infinitely replayable; for years I had mistakenly thought it was the other way around.

REMEMBER THAT I CREATED YOU, MORTAL. PLACE YOUR HAND INTO THE FIRE AND LET IT BURRRRNNN YOUUUUU....



My favorite RPGs are all of them that are good. Which, since I can appreciate the positive aspects in any of them, pretty much means all of them. Except Demons Age. Fuck that one.

Some notable ones I've enjoyed a lot:

Chrono Trigger
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Baldur's Gate
Neverwinter Nights
Final Fantasy 7
Planescape: Torment
Elminage Gothic
ELEX
Gothic 1/2/3
Morrowind
Risen

Damn it there's too many. You get the idea.

 

[Blaine]

Nostalgia fags everywhere

I can see this guy walking into the grocery store and exclaiming, "Holy shit, there's food everywhere!"...

...although his location is Brazil, so that might not actually be the case, but you know what I mean.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Deus Ex
Watched a lot of X-Files and similar stuff between '90 and new millennium (ironically Millennium with Henricksen was one of them), that game was like a fulfilled wish from a gods to me back then.
I don't remember why but control and aiming system wasn't an gamebreaker issue to me back then tho... maybe bigger tolerance for my first steps in this videogame medium?

 

[Alienman]

Bit off topic, but never understood the appeal of Millennium. Henricksen is badass of course, but it seems every episode just boils down to he having random visions and that will lead to capture of suspect eventually. Same with that show with Patricia Arquette.

Edit:
Spelling

 

[Jason Liang]

Bit off topic, but never understood the appeal of Millennium. Henricksen is badass of course, but it seems every episode just boils down to he having random visions and that will lead to capture of suspect eventually. Shame with that show with Patricia Arquette.

The first season is mostly episodic, but by season 2 the show develops a mythology and becomes increasingly serialized, supernatural and surreal. It's worth watching for season 2. In fact, you can start from the last two espisodes of season 1 and then go directly to season 2. There are a couple of random episodes from season 1 worth watching but I'd have to dig up a list for you. Alternatively, I'd suggest watching the Pilot, the 2nd episode (Gehenna), then skip to the 15th episode of season 1, Sacrament, which is sort of where the show comes into its own.

And yes, it's also great since it's the Lance Henricksen show. I met him once at WonderCon you know. For about 20 seconds. Waited in line for 50 minutes but it was totally worth it.

 

[anvi]

Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn -best "main stream" CRPG.

You had to do this right? At least you didn't say Arcanum or Planescape.

I hate Arcanum and Planescape, but BG2?! That game was so good.

 

[Valky]

Temple of Elemental Evil for pure RPGs
I like strategy (more often turn based) games a fair bit too and of those, Heroes of Might and Magic 3.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn -best "main stream" CRPG.

You had to do this right? At least you didn't say Arcanum or Planescape.

I hate Arcanum and Planescape, but BG2?! That game was so good.

BG2 is really good, but it's 3rd on that list behind Arcanum and Planescape.