Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
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Where is the RPG in MMORPG?

JJ86

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
206
I just found this article at RPG Times and thought it was a pretty good assessment of the lack of real MMORPG games.
 

Mistress

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Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
341
Location
UK
I think PCGamer covered it pretty well when they reviewed StarWars Galaxies and commented on how disheartening it is to have a wookie come up and tell you you're "fucking gay". I was amused by a story on one of the forums about a roleplayer playing a Trandoshan doctor. When asked if he was buffing, he responded with something in character to say yes he was providing medical enhancements(this would be more amusing for you if I could remember exactly what, but there you go) only for the other person to say "WTF?!! Dude, are you buffing or not?" Ahhhh.....morons, you get 'em everywhere.

One of my own experiences with the game was fairly similar. Indulging in a spot of rebel slaughter up at the Emperor's Retreat, I found my buffs had run out. A search on the area revealed a doctor with the roleplayer tag up. So, I messaged him to ask if he would be so kind as to enhance my stats. He responded with "reb/imp?" A little confused by the abbreviated response I said "I'm a loyal servant of the empire", or words to that effect. The response was "sry dude, only buff rebs". *sigh*

Don't get me wrong - I've had fun with SWG (albeit limited), but most of that fun has been in activities done by myself - crafting, and singlehandedly taking down rebel bases as a hideously overpowered Teras Kasi Master. I was a member of a city and guild for a while, but gave up on that as a lost cause due to hologrinders.

Hologrinders...the boil on the arse of SWG. Whoever had the bright idea for the holocron system needs to take a long walk off a short pier. Nice sentiment in that they supposedly wanted players to try out different aspects of the game. More cynically, an obvious attempt to sustain interest and feed an addiction to the game which is only really there while you work up to the elite professions. Past mastering Teras Kasi or any other elite profession, there is very little to keep you going, bar starting another one, and people constantly changing professions has so many problematic effects. The grinding of professions in order to complete holocrons and unlock a force sensitive character slot for the highly prized jedi character was the one thing I loathed about the game as soon as I started playing. A couple of months in and I began to see just how big the effect of this system was. In the city I was a member of, most of the people were hologrinders, so there was no stable structure, and ultimately, it all started to fall apart. Cantinas in the large NPC cities are laggy spam fests, jammed with people AFK grinding dancer/musician/image designer and spamming requests for action heals and tips. Way to kill the entertainment professions. So many vendors registered on the planetary map and left empty because the owner only wants the XP to master merchant, or because they are grinding through different crafting professions.....

Thankfully they are changing the jedi system...but I doubt I will be around much to see the improvements if there are any....there's only so much boredom a girl can take. I might pop back occasionally to smackdown some rebels...maybe.
 

Anonymous

Guest
What annoys me about the 'RPG' in MMORPG, is they all seem to think Roleplaying is where you put on funny clothes and talk like a retard. But I do believe, with enough work, you could still make a nice MMORPG with Roleplaying elements, just do them right because the l33t k1dz crowd will do their 'wtf thsi si gaey omg i juss want 2 paly teh gaem u fagits'
 

DrattedTin

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
426
Thankfully they are changing the jedi system...but I doubt I will be around much to see the improvements if there are any....there's only so much boredom a girl can take. I might pop back occasionally to smackdown some rebels...maybe.


Hey man, you're fucking gay. :D
 

fnordcircle

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Messages
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Frowning at my monitor as I read your dumb post.
Honestly, without permadeath I don't think you can really get immersed in a character. When there is no risk, there is no reward. When victory is assured, it can never be sweet. Moreover, because people can't make changes to the gameworld, it ends up with what MMOs are. Level treadmills.
 

Anonymous

Guest
Well, if they just some simple stuff, like stats meaning something besides direct values in your spells and weapons and whatnot. Alsoing making all stats useful for all classes, instead of just the ones for their class.

Like a melee guy who puts stuff in intelligence might do more damage because he'll know more, such as weaknesses in his enemies.
 

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
LlamaGod said:
What annoys me about the 'RPG' in MMORPG, is they all seem to think Roleplaying is where you put on funny clothes and talk like a retard. But I do believe, with enough work, you could still make a nice MMORPG with Roleplaying elements

I feel this way to. The writer of the article talks about some fun times "roleplaying" outside of combat. Sitting around and talking fancy is just a chat room with graphics. MMORPGs that are out and are coming out are designed as level grinds, "roleplaying" means nothing in the game.

I never really liked sitting around talking in character in NWN or whatever. If the gameworld doesn't allow any interaction except removing monster graphics for a while then you aren't going to get anywhere.

A "roleplaying" world should focus on things done by the players and relevent disscussions. You don't go out and kill monsters, you get hired by a player merchant to guard a caravan, gaining you money and reputation bonuses. You don't play a bandit and randoming attack everyone, the game keeps track of conquences. You don't go to a tavern to enter a graphical chat room, you get jobs and talk business with other players. And you don't kill monsters and get strong, everyone should start skilled and get more skilled but all should be on realistic level.

No level grind, no need for useless talk. Prove yourself by actions and have the game world respond.
 

Visionary

Novice
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Messages
55
You can't force people to role-play. Building a game that attempted to do so would be futile.

Role-play is different things to different people. It always has been, since way before it hit computers. The difference with MMORPGs is that you are exposed to the whole range, which will put the extremists at odds with each other.

You can avoid most of the nonsense in many games by using the in-game societal mechanisms (guilds, chat channels, etc) to stick with kindred spirits. You won't be able to isolate yourself entirely, but unless you're a bit of a facist yourself you'll find it'll be down to a level where it doesn't interfere with enjoyment.

Some titles are worse than others, though. SWG is one of the worst because it draws players from places other than the rpg gaming community. I did find it pretty laughable that they made a huge deal aboutnames having to be in accordance with Star Wars feel, and then just let hordes of people run around with names like "XmontyPWNZU"
 

Human Shield

Augur
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Messages
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Location
VA, USA
Visionary said:
You can't force people to role-play. Building a game that attempted to do so would be futile.

Role-play is different things to different people.

Why isn't everything role-playing? If the character has a freedom to do something, then why not design a path for the action. I think role-playing mindset needs to move away from the chat bar, who cares what words you are saying, they don't effect anything. If a player wants to randomly kill people, then fine, single player games always have random bad guys; it is the game's fault for letting them get powerful and having no consequences.

The difference with MMORPGs is that you are exposed to the whole range, which will put the extremists at odds with each other.

Conflict can make things interesting and push people to succeed. Conflict is good.

You can avoid most of the nonsense in many games by using the in-game societal mechanisms (guilds, chat channels, etc) to stick with kindred spirits. You won't be able to isolate yourself entirely, but unless you're a bit of a facist yourself you'll find it'll be down to a level where it doesn't interfere with enjoyment.

I hate things like this. Paying a monthly fee to play with 20 people to kill monsters. I don't like guilds being immune to the effects of the world and getting massive power while shuning all new comers. Have players deal with people so the world doesn't become a bunch of useless guilds not talking to anyone, with new players having no fun.

"Interfere with enjoyment", go play a single player game. Multiplayer games involve people interacting with each other for good and bad, MMORPGs have seemed to abandoned that concept. Go pay for the boring trendmill where no one can interact with you without permission. "Roleplayers" just want to see around with all chat channels except one ignored and aimlessly talk about their character's tragic past, go write a journal.

Some titles are worse than others, though. SWG is one of the worst because it draws players from places other than the rpg gaming community. I did find it pretty laughable that they made a huge deal aboutnames having to be in accordance with Star Wars feel, and then just let hordes of people run around with names like "XmontyPWNZU"

And John Hando can wait in line to kill monsters like everyone else. Anyone wonder why everyone has a floating name above them anyways?

MMORPGs are level trendmills with no interaction or meaningful choices, no matter the 'flavor text' it isn't an RPG. RPGs have levels but the combat is balanced and lets you continue on to something more important, MMOGs have killing over and over as the job. Single player style advancement from weak to superstrong doesn't work in multiplayer environment, they want to you waste time.
 

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
Exitium said:
Powergaming is the bane of role-playing.

At least powergamers are playing the game. Their actions have some effect, a pointless one thou. All single player RPG characters 'powergame', they are always looking for better stuff.

They are trying to advance in game terms as fast as possible, a very natural thing to do (especially when the advancement is boring). Blame the game's advancement system for being so stat heavy, if advancement has based on doing jobs for other players....

Roleplayers view the gameplay as hurting the gameworld: people can't RP much when they have to go out and kill things, people talking about 'buffs' and other words hurt the setting but are more effective for playing.

Powergamers view the story as slowing down gameplay: sitting around talking has no effect, therefore, I won't waste time.

In the end both are right, sitting around talking wastes time and leveling up to kill more things wastes time. A better system is advancement based on dealing with people, all types of people. I've thought up a different type of MMORPG but it takes a while to explain.
 

Sol Invictus

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Oct 19, 2002
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Pax Romana
All single player RPG characters 'powergame', they are always looking for better stuff.
I don't recall that being the case with Fallout, Baldur's Gate or even KOTOR. Items just came as the game went along. Games like those had a completely different focus than Diablo, DS, NWN and Sacred.
 

Human Shield

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Sep 7, 2003
Messages
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Location
VA, USA
Exitium said:
All single player RPG characters 'powergame', they are always looking for better stuff.
I don't recall that being the case with Fallout, Baldur's Gate or even KOTOR. Items just came as the game went along. Games like those had a completely different focus than Diablo, DS, NWN and Sacred.

Precisely, if leveling and items are second priority then the player can focus on other things. Why do MMORPGs focus on levels and loot? In a single player game there is a reachable end but MMORPGs are designed with "late-game content".

Playing Fallout the time you put in gives you progress, that is what powergamers do. They try to get as much progress as possible because they get things when they do, "here's a Jedi slot". CRPGs offer interaction and choices with the gameworld, MMORPGs have none.

If the only why to advance is level, then why not put your time into it, they can't shape things (maybe only when they are high level).

MMORPGs: If you want to have an effect on the gameworld, grind your time away.
 

Mistress

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
341
Location
UK
Visionary said:
You can avoid most of the nonsense in many games by using the in-game societal mechanisms (guilds, chat channels, etc) to stick with kindred spirits. You won't be able to isolate yourself entirely, but unless you're a bit of a facist yourself you'll find it'll be down to a level where it doesn't interfere with enjoyment.
Problem being when you get a situation like the one the city/guild I was in had. Unless they are planned, cities in the game can start out badly, since within 24 hours of placing a city hall you need to have 10 citizens with houses declared in your city. If you don't - the city hall disappears - leaving you about 200,000 credits down and with nothing to show for it. So - if you just decide to start a city up, without having enough founding members, or you have the people, but they don't show up when they're supposed to, you are left with a choice - lose the city hall, or go and recruit random people. With the city I was a part of, some of the people didn't show up to declare residence on time, so different people were recruited rapidly in the worry that the city hall would go up in smoke. This meant that the new recruits weren't vetted - something that later became a trend. After a few weeks, rather than inviting cool people we got on with, there was a desire to grow and increase the city status quickly so we could get all the facilities. A shuttleport was the ultimate goal, and 55 members were needed to be able to place this. So, levelling up the city was the focus, rather than developing a community of any sort and building a successful trade/whatever centre. The city ended up being absolutely riddled with hologrinders. I needed an armoursmith - at one point we had three, so I thought I would go and ask them to make me some armour. They had all moved on to their next grinding profession. Same went for bio-engineers and chefs. All for the grind. I wouldn't say any of them were having real fun with it - it was a case of getting each profession done as quickly as possible. I can't imagine anything more mindnumbing.

Anyway - what started out as a fairly friendly and active guild soon turned in to a mess. Guild chat was filled with tips and whinges about hologrinding, and people bitching. I left the guild and the city and moved to a remote location on another planet. So did my boyfriend and a few others.

Spatial chat is more often than not filled with spam.

Some titles are worse than others, though. SWG is one of the worst because it draws players from places other than the rpg gaming community. I did find it pretty laughable that they made a huge deal aboutnames having to be in accordance with Star Wars feel, and then just let hordes of people run around with names like "XmontyPWNZU"

This is one of the main things that bugs me. I agree - it is definitely laughable. I have so far encountered the following:

Drizzt (with a razor cat named Guenhwyvar)
Artemis
Cattebrie

Rincewind

Jude Law
Johnny Depp
Captn Jac Sparrow
Toadfish Ribecci (Neighbours character for those of you who aren't familiar)

ExpertGamePlayer (no kidding....)

Lame attempts at humour:
Bobah Feet
Fango Jett
Ivor Bigguns
Kronnik Bonghitter

It actually makes me quite sad. So here I am again, somewhat battlescarred and weary from my adventure into the world of the MMOG. Not that I didn't have fun - I did, it just ran out quite quickly.

Something I mentioned to my boyfriend the other day is one of the interesting effects I have noticed SWG had on me. I have always been fairly imaginative, and someone who likes to sit alone and just think/read/write. While playing SWG - I wouldn't lie in the bath as normal and just think about what I was going to do that day or what I had done, or about a story or character or anything - my mind would be fairly blank. I think my stress levels were up through trying to do things quickly in order to get to play the game, and playing the game was also always a rush to do things - a rush to get to a Point of Interest before another group did, or to achieve the next level, or help someone with something before having to log off. Conversations with people unrelated to the gameworld were less interesting since I had nothing to say. Since I've stopped playing, I am getting back to "normal".
 

DamnElfGirl

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May 31, 2004
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313
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Canuckskiville
There are still a lot of technical/design problems with MMORPGs that make role-playing difficult. However, I think the biggest problem is that the game teams are comprised of technical, creative, and customer support people. There are a ton of social problems involved in creating an MMORPG, but no staff who are fully equipped to provide social solutions. The developers try to solve social problems with technical solutions, thus individual freedom is more severely restricted with each new MMORPG. The customer support people are trained to keep the customer happy no matter what, so there are no consequences for anti-social behaviour, as long as it doesn't break any federal laws.

What MMORPGs need are "social" people involved from the ground up. They need to hire people with backgrounds in sociology, urban planning, policy research, you name it. They need to give those people licence to solve social problems with social solutions. They're going to have to allow and support customer self-segregation... I don't hang out with 14-year-old boys in real life for a good reason. I'm not going to enjoy hanging out with them on-line, either. Servers need to be designed to better support different kinds of people at different levels of maturity with different play styles, and customers need to be funnled to the appropriate servers, forcefully if necessary. The customer service people need to understand that there are some customers they just don't want. If I started shoving my fellow customers around in a department store, I'd be kicked out. I find it odd that MMORPG companies are so reluctant to ban players for doing the virtual equivalent. They'd rather impose artificial constraints on all players, making the game boring for everyone.

Sure, we could role-play more if MMORPGs provided a rich, involving storyline and provided players with the opportunity to make a real difference in the world. But those things aren't even going to be possible until companies learn to solve the social problems associated with thousands of anonymous people co-existing in a single game. It'd be like transporting Shakespeare's Globe Theatre into the Vandal hordes and expecting them to sit still and be quiet for Romeo and Juliet.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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As long as people are satisfied with pretty treadmills, things won't change.
 

Mistress

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Oct 22, 2002
Messages
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UK
You're right DamnElfGirl - MMOGs are, obviously, a large virtual community, and, being populated by people, have social and political issues which should be taken into consideration and dealt with. The way "griefers" and exploiters are handled is lacking in the extreme.

There was a vaguely interesting article in Game Developer magazine about Everquest which I will dig out later on. Side pieces around the main article talk a little about the way the game has evolved socially and politically.
 

Mistress

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Oct 22, 2002
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Vault Dweller said:
As long as people are satisfied with pretty treadmills, things won't change.

Thing is, a lot of people who play games like SWG and Everquest don't necessarily play because they are gamers or roleplayers. Quite a few people I know in SWG started playing because their partner or a friend does, and they continue to play because its like a big chatroom, only with guns and dressing up. In fact, these people tend to play more obsessively than some of the gamers I know who play.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
That's what I said. You've just developed it further by providing one of the reasons why people are satisfied with the way things are now.
 

Mistress

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Oct 22, 2002
Messages
341
Location
UK
Vault Dweller said:
That's what I said. You've just developed it further by providing one of the reasons why people are satisfied with the way things are now.

Sorry, your post seemed to be more aimed at the people who play the game to level etc, not the ones who play it like a yahoo chatroom. (I was trying to finish my post quickly before my boyfriend finished cooking so I may not have read you properly!) But yep - I agree - there are obviously different ways people approach the game and a lot of people are, unfortunately for people like me (but fortunately for SOE), satisfied with it as it stands.

Still...there are a lot of people who aren't satisfied, or at least give the impression that they aren't through their posts on the official forums. They aren't voting with their feet yet though, not in any great numbers, so the likelihood of radical change is extremely small.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
Mistress said:
Sorry, your post seemed to be more aimed at the people who play the game to level etc
Well, the main and often the only goal of MMORPGs is to level up. People are ok with that for many reasons.

I was trying to finish my post quickly before my boyfriend finished cooking so I may not have read you properly!
I was actually cooking for my wife hence the short post. Don't women cook anymore? :)

Still...there are a lot of people who aren't satisfied, or at least give the impression that they aren't through their posts on the official forums. They aren't voting with their feet yet though, not in any great numbers, so the likelihood of radical change is extremely small.
They don't have any great numbers, for every hundred disappointed people who want more, there are several thousand morons who don't or wouldn't know what to do with "more" if they had it. The same is true for other RPGs and it explains critically acclaimed hits like NWN and KOTOR.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
The main reason why people hologrind in SWG is that the main game is so uncreative and bland, to do anything of note you have to be a jedi. I've seen someone grind to Jedi in two months. Wookiees and the languages are a complete joke. Okay, they can only speek in their native tongue. Just group with one, or any other race, and they can teach you within seconds how to understand each and every language. About the only thing "languages" did in that game was give an indication to your species in a shout. These things are less than useless if not developed correctly.

Even during my time in developing MUDs, I would never dream anything so utterly asinine for unlocking elite classes/races as the holocrons. There are other ways to do it, and you have to provide for many drawbacks to having such a character. One of my favorites that I passed to several older MUD Imms and players, and it met with reasonable success (you either became good at talking and cooperation or you used scavenged weapons or hoarded them) was a race that was a bit more powerful than most, had access to some neat weaponry, but they couldn't enter towns at all or the guards would attack. No, not just wimp guiards, it might be a ballista bolt or the like as well.

Trick is, you couldn't just hand someone the money, they had to also use something to erase the smell or else alert the guards' dogs. There's other things like that which would enhance and promote the playing of a character rather than be another faceless drone to hammer out quests. I'm doing what I can to help those who still MUD, but I'm also tweaking the ear of a few friends who are in MMOG development, and many of them like my ideas. Ideas such as guards snapping to a salute if you talk to them as a general, but they are lazy or might ignore you if you're a peasant, telling you to leave or kick you away if you keep bothering them. This could be included for the whole rank file, and it wouldn't necessarily have to be server-side. It would go by highest ranked person in the area (even NPC), anld be estimated by each client when they get the area location data, and each would display these animations, or if the high-ranking player is already in the room, be seen to be already at attention when the player enters. The animations would need to be interruptable, of course, so they could synch up with the next area location refresh in case they move to attack or some other action.

But no, most MMORPG devs don't care to do anything like that, instead they go for nothing more than a graphical representation of ProgressQuest, where items and characters stats like strength only matter. How the hell can you call something a world when it is so utterly devoid of anything resembling life? The players resemble robots, and the NPCs are often completely interchangeable with labeled bricks in the sidewalk.

As with MUDs, the number of MMOGs that are becoming dull and uninspired and flooding the market is just obscene, but it's almost like all of the copycat Windows MUD Imm kiddies. They take a codebase, toss in a few areas, craft up a few of their own, and try to call it something new. It sounds like most of the MMORPG snake-oil salesmen.
 

Mistress

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Oct 22, 2002
Messages
341
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UK
Vault Dweller said:
Mistress said:
Sorry, your post seemed to be more aimed at the people who play the game to level etc
Well, the main and often the only goal of MMORPGs is to level up. People are ok with that for many reasons.

I was trying to finish my post quickly before my boyfriend finished cooking so I may not have read you properly!
I was actually cooking for my wife hence the short post. Don't women cook anymore? :)

Still...there are a lot of people who aren't satisfied, or at least give the impression that they aren't through their posts on the official forums. They aren't voting with their feet yet though, not in any great numbers, so the likelihood of radical change is extremely small.
They don't have any great numbers, for every hundred disappointed people who want more, there are several thousand morons who don't or wouldn't know what to do with "more" if they had it. The same is true for other RPGs and it explains critically acclaimed hits like NWN and KOTOR.

Yeah - levelling up and loot. The loot in SWG is fairly poor though....a painting here and there...the odd crystal.....POIs are camped by arseholes who have nothing better to do than run macros on magseal containers so they can fill up storage houses with looted armor and clothing attachments and skill tapes.

Cook? When there's games to play? :wink:

Yes, it's true. The name "Kronnik Bonghitter" just says it all. So, what are you roleplaying then? A complete waste of skin? Good job.

As for KoToR - I'm actually quite enjoying that game at the moment. The combat is a bit lacking....and all in all it's nothing special, but since I'm in a lazy mood this month and we have the x-box version, I get to lie in bed propped up by pillows and be slightly mean to aliens. It would be nice if I could beat the crap out of my party members though, I don't think they could possibly be more annoying...unless they were 15 year old hologrinders that is :wink:
 

DrattedTin

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
426
It would be nice if I could beat the crap out of my party members though, I don't think they could possibly be more annoying...unless they were 15 year old hologrinders that is

What do you think they do on those long, long interplanetary flights?
 

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