Good Turn-Based War Simulations

[dagorkan]

So I've become tired and sick of these sub-par Paradox games, I'm looking for something more realistic and complex than Risk! but which is fun, challenging and has good AI. I don't want too much economic/resource management and I don't care so much about the setting, anything historical since the 18th century would be fine.

I've seen quite a lot of hex-based games reviewed on TCancer, one by Hussar Games about the American Revolution looked quite intriguing... I own and played SSI's Fantasy/Star Generals and liked them but something a little more high scale, historical and open-ended (rather than mission based) would be preferable. But I don't want an overly ambitious sandbox 'control the world' thing that only ends up disappointing because the gameplay isn't there to match the ambition (Paradox). Something theater specific where you have a set number of troops would be perfect.

I also played a lot of "Fields of Glory" a Napoleonic real-time game back in the day (even used it's database to write a history essay in school) and bought Cossacks a while ago but for some reason never installed it and lost the DVD. My preference is turn based but I can tolerate manageable real time.

What would you recommend to try first?

 

[Caveman]

So many games.

My two favourites:

NORM KOGER'S THE OPERATIONAL ART OF WAR III

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=317

Hardcore war simulation / operational strategy. Extremely complex and deep. This game is HUGE.

You can read a lot of AARs to see how it works and how other people play it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=291


Strategic Command 2 + expansion packs

Much simpler but still great gameplay.
http://www.battlefront.com/products/sc2/index.html

 

[dagorkan]

Thanks, with this it looks like I will be set for life!

The mailed box + download is cheaper than what HoI cost me with a shitty download-only option.

 

[Jason]

Sounds like you want operational-level wargames.

SC2 is solid if you want something Risk-ish that's easy to get into. But Caveman's suggestion for TOAW3 is probably more spot on. It's very flexible with over ten million billion scenarios so you're bound to find something you like.

Matrix also publishes games for SSG who do very well in the operational department. And check out HPS for their Modern Campaigns and Panzer Campaigns titles.

 

[Burning Bridges]

As far as I know the best you can get these days comes from ageod and panther games:

http://www.ageod.com/

http://www.panthergames.com/

 

[traemyn]

You should also check out this gem:

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/330 ... ld.Divided

If the American Civil War fansies you, this was just released:

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/357 ... The.States

 

[Korgan]

WinSPMBT is pretty good and free to download. Everyone who thinks Paradox's games are dumb should try this.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Thanks never heard of that game before.

Everyone who thinks Paradox's games are dumb should try this.

Why?

 

[Korgan]

Cause it's OMG HARDCORE, obviously (but still playable). I doubt wargames get much more serious and realistic than this, really.

 

[Burning Bridges]

BoA2 was released today, and it's excellent. See my comments in this thread:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24892

 

[Erzherzog]

So I've become tired and sick of these sub-par Paradox games

 

[Armacalypse]

I don't get how you could ever make a turn-based game realistic. Those games may not necessarily be unrealistic when it comes to number of options, "stats" or physics, but you can't really call a game realistic when they use completely different meta physics than the real world.
Don't get me wrong; turn-based is really fun. But the only way to make a realistic game is to make it in real-time, with added elements like pausing and fast-forward to make it playable.

With that said, are there any war simulators out there that are really realistic?

 

[Korgan]

Combat Mission, probably.

 

[Burning Bridges]

the only way to make a realistic game is to make it in real-time, with added elements like pausing and fast-forward to make it playable.

Yeah baby *poof poof*

 

[Troll]

I don't get how you could ever make a turn-based game realistic. Those games may not necessarily be unrealistic when it comes to number of options, "stats" or physics, but you can't really call a game realistic when they use completely different meta physics than the real world.
Don't get me wrong; turn-based is really fun. But the only way to make a realistic game is to make it in real-time, with added elements like pausing and fast-forward to make it playable.

With that said, are there any war simulators out there that are really realistic?

Actually from a certain level above real-life combat IS turn based. A general issues his orders and it takes a bit of time for them to be carried out. the enemy general also gives his orders and takes counter-actions if needed and so on. Wether it's same time turn based when you follow your own objectives or sequential time for counter measurements it still remains turn based. The war game gets real time only at squad level

 

[Astromarine]

which is the really really neat concept at the heart of the Airborne Assault series. It's real-time, pausable, but depending on how high up the chain of command your order was given there's delay, interpretation of orders, etc put in so that you really feel like the commander on the ground. How well this is executed is debatable (I like the series, but I'm nowhere near hardcore enough to be able to play it) but the concept itself is genious.

 

[Armacalypse]

I don't get how you could ever make a turn-based game realistic. Those games may not necessarily be unrealistic when it comes to number of options, "stats" or physics, but you can't really call a game realistic when they use completely different meta physics than the real world.
Don't get me wrong; turn-based is really fun. But the only way to make a realistic game is to make it in real-time, with added elements like pausing and fast-forward to make it playable.

With that said, are there any war simulators out there that are really realistic?

Actually from a certain level above real-life combat IS turn based. A general issues his orders and it takes a bit of time for them to be carried out. the enemy general also gives his orders and takes counter-actions if needed and so on. Wether it's same time turn based when you follow your own objectives or sequential time for counter measurements it still remains turn based. The war game gets real time only at squad level

Yeah, orders can be "turn based". But if the whole world is turn based, it changes the way time, and therefore the whole world, works.
For example, in a turn-based tactical squad game like X-Com or Jagged Alliance the concept of crashing into someone because you both go through a doorway at the same time doesn't work. It also allows a character to execute long attacks without allowing the opponent to react to them, unless the developer has implemented something to balance this, which in turn probably makes the game more unrealistic.

But turn-based games are still fun unless you are specifically looking for a realistic game. I'm playing Silent Storm right now and it's real fun even though the turn-system prevents the battles from making much sense if you compare it to real combat.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I generally prefer strategic level to be turn based, tactical battles in real time. Shogun Total War was perfect in every respect, pity they sacrificed detail for scope with the sequels.

Just to bring back those memories:

 

[buccaroobonzai]

Not to go off topic too much...But the Total War series I hope is a precedent for many more wargames, in that they will combine strategic and tactical, as well as turn based and real time. But they should use it in many more tactical to strategic scopes then only in what scale Total war uses.

Also, a question if anyone knows Medeival Total War. In Rome Ttoal War, on the rela time battlefield you can rotate you're troops facing with a key. We have not been able to find any way to rotate you're troops in Medeival Total War on the real time battlefield, anyone know how to do this?

 

[Burning Bridges]

But the Total War series I hope is a precedent for many more wargames, in that they will combine strategic and tactical, as well as turn based and real time.

Too bad they started to become a succesful company only after the dumbing down began. STW with it's detailed, focussed campaign and 4 tpy was extremely engaging, MTW was dissappointing, and today the TW games are completely generic.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Also, a question if anyone knows Medeival Total War. In Rome Ttoal War, on the rela time battlefield you can rotate you're troops facing with a key. We have not been able to find any way to rotate you're troops in Medeival Total War on the real time battlefield, anyone know how to do this?

I can't remember I think in STW I simply ordered them a few steps in the other direction.

 

[Fez]

The Total War games have been heading downhill since that glorious beginning. Medieval Total war + VI expansion was pretty sweet though. Playing the Viking map reminded me of Shogun.

 

[LCJr.]

In Shogun you could select a unit then click and drag. Gave you a ghost image of the unit that let you change facing and width/depth.

Actually it was downhill starting with Shogun and the Warlord Edition/Mongol Invasions. Geisha's, Kensai's and Battlefield Ninja's gave a clear indication of the gimmicky crap that was to follow.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah, those gimmicky "fantasy units" are one of the worst pieces of crap in the newer TW games. They really stretched it with Rome. Burning pigs? Roman ninja-priests? Gladiators as regular units on the battlefields? Screaming women who scare the enemy? War-dogs? What?

And the AI became more and more sucky with each new game, too. Luckily some mods for Medieval 2 partly fix that, but it's still nowhere as challenging as Shogun was. I'm really interested in how Empire TW will turn out, though. With a new engine, new campaign map mechanics and really different tactics for a different era it's going to be interesting.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Too bad I cannot get back to STW either. The 2D art and menus are still great, but I cannot get a kick out of the 3D battles anymore, the problem is the units look ridiculously outdated today. Otherwise I would still play it today.