Spiderweb software

[Bluegrazz]

I prefer old school, tactical, turn based RPG's with lots of depth and open ended content...I love to obsess over diffrent ways to build my party/character and loathe having "leveling up" an automatic or non-interactive process (I.E. Your Mage gained a lvl. HP up. MP up. Gained spell: FIREBALL)
I have desperately been seeking a game that I can become absorbed in such as Fallout, Arcanum , Planescape, Might and Magic, Wizardry, etc. (Hell, at this point I am even replaying Morrowind with new Mods) and I am having very little luck.
I am 33 years old and last month felt like a fucking idiot as I bought a Nintendo DS so I could find a turn based game. (got a couple that are okay, but lack real depth) and I prefer to run the game on my Laptop (as playing a DS at work raises eyebrows )
Sooooo, it was suggested that I try a game from Spiderweb Software. I downloaded a demo and began playing and.... Well, my initial impression was.....Well....Although I am not a Graphic-Centric person I had a bit of trouble distinguishing things in the game. I had trouble determining my characters "movement" range during combat. I was just not impressed at all.
I found this site a couple days ago, lurked around and realized that there are a plethora of like minded people here who may understand what I am looking for... Do the Spiderweb games have the depth I am seeking? Is it worth the bad interface and clunky controls (Arcanum sure was) or is it a waste of my time? I have only played for about 20 minutes and your opinions will be appreciated.

 

[Higher Game]

Try Geneforge, it's much more modern. Vogel's games are very well balanced for all kinds of play, and are very creative, but are redundant (6 Avernums and 5 Geneforges!) and often repetitive, just like lots of old school RPGs. :D I'd say they're all worth checking out, though none of them are as good as the old masterpieces.

The DS is a great system, by the way.

 

[OSK]

Honestly, if you didn't enjoy the demo I wouldn't bother buying the game. Vogel gives large demos which are more than enough to get a feel for the game and determine if you like the game or not.

That said, I really enjoyed Geneforge. Also, if it was an Avernum game that you didn't like the graphics of, try the Exile games. The Avernums are just the Exile games with "updated" graphics.

 

[Bluegrazz]

I really haven't spent but 20 minutes or so with the demo.... I was seeking some opinions/reviews of this game to consider whether or not to invest time in the demo... I am going to try the other games you mentioned as well by Spiderweb but really just kinda wanting to know what the games are like as whole- Considering depth, length, character development, open endedness, etc.... I can get past the graphics if the gameplay is stellar..... Honestly, I have never heard of this company until last week or so. thx

 

[Dhruin]

You don't say which game you tried and, despite what some people will say, there are significant differences between some of them.

I get the feeling they won't quite have the tactical depth you'd prefer but they do offer huge, (usually) open gameworlds, interesting scenarios, decent writing and many of them have reasonable roleplaying opportunities (through factions and quests, moreso than different character approaches).

Given that you've gone 10 years without playing one of his games, I'd suggest starting with his latest (Geneforge 4 or Avernum 5). These two offer 1024x768 resolutions and enough minor tweaks to make a difference with the graphics and interfaces - if you can't cope with these (or this is what you tried and didn't like), move on and learn to live with the limited commercial releases out there.

While I personally prefer the Geneforge series, Avernum 5 has some added combat options that help a little and a number of quite difficult scripted combat scenarios, so this is the most tactical of all of them. I reviewed it recently, if you want to read a full article - the links shouldn't be hard to find.

 

[Cray]

You might as well just try it. None of can tell you if you'd like them.

 

[Higher Game]

I really haven't spent but 20 minutes or so with the demo.... I was seeking some opinions/reviews of this game to consider whether or not to invest time in the demo... I am going to try the other games you mentioned as well by Spiderweb but really just kinda wanting to know what the games are like as whole- Considering depth, length, character development, open endedness, etc.... I can get past the graphics if the gameplay is stellar..... Honestly, I have never heard of this company until last week or so. thx

The factions in his games are always very well done (probably his best skill as far as writing and story goes), but character development is nil. You're basically a silent protagonist who is defined by what faction you join. Don't go in and expect The Nameless One, since making those kind of characters just isn't what Vogel is good at. He really plays to his strengths and is conservative with changes, which is what leads to all the charges of redundancy.

Give the demo maybe 2-3 additional hours. Avernum 1 takes a bit to start up anyway. It's really a great game once you get into it.

 

[Thrasher]

FWIW, I started Avernum 5 a few weeks ago, and got hooked. So much so that I put down Fallout 2 for a while.

It's fun to learn a new character devlopment / magic / combat system.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

A couple other games you might be interested in looking at are:

- Eschalon:Book I
- Devil's Whiskey
- SSI's Gold Box games (there are about 30). Take a look at the Buck Roger's ones if you want something a bit different
- Teudogar
- Prelude to Darkness

 

[Zhirzzh]

If you haven't played PtD, put down Avernum now and play it. PtD is one of the best RPGs of all time, once you get past the crashing and the camera.

It has great C&C in the short term, and very good in the long (the game has 2 paths, if you botch one, you can jump on the other).

The combat is different from anything else you'll ever play. Everyone begins with a fixed number of AP. The unit with the most will go until he no longer has the most, then the next one goes ect... It's well balanced, and fairly challenging (although not as hard as I would like).

 

[Goliath]

I prefer old school, tactical, turn based RPG's with lots of depth and open ended content...I love to obsess over diffrent ways to build my party/character and loathe having "leveling up" an automatic or non-interactive process (I.E. Your Mage gained a lvl. HP up. MP up. Gained spell: FIREBALL)
I have desperately been seeking a game that I can become absorbed in such as Fallout, Arcanum , Planescape, Might and Magic, Wizardry, etc. (Hell, at this point I am even replaying Morrowind with new Mods) and I am having very little luck.
I am 33 years old and last month felt like a fucking idiot as I bought a Nintendo DS so I could find a turn based game. (got a couple that are okay, but lack real depth) and I prefer to run the game on my Laptop (as playing a DS at work raises eyebrows )
Sooooo, it was suggested that I try a game from Spiderweb Software. I downloaded a demo and began playing and.... Well, my initial impression was.....Well....Although I am not a Graphic-Centric person I had a bit of trouble distinguishing things in the game. I had trouble determining my characters "movement" range during combat. I was just not impressed at all.
I found this site a couple days ago, lurked around and realized that there are a plethora of like minded people here who may understand what I am looking for... Do the Spiderweb games have the depth I am seeking? Is it worth the bad interface and clunky controls (Arcanum sure was) or is it a waste of my time? I have only played for about 20 minutes and your opinions will be appreciated.

1. Welcome to the Codex! We need more older people with taste here.

2. It seems we like the same kind of games and I cannot recommend the Vogel stuff. I have played 1/3 of Avernum 4 and 1/4 of Geneforge 3. I eventually quit both games because they just weren't much fun for me. The character development systems in both games were simplistic and uninteresting. Tactics? Nope. Oh, except "buff up the entire party to the max before entering combat" - a very annoying aspect BTW (because it means endless, repetitive casting of buff spells before each battle). Story line and quests were utterly generic in Avernum. Really, as if they were produced by the fantasy RPG cookie cutter quest and story machine. You know the "kill some big rats in the cellar" type stuff. Geneforge's theme is less generic, in fact it is unique, but it did not grab me either. Before I eventually quit nothing had happened except reading through a story line which somehow reminded me of a JRPG (that's not a compliment) and various episodes of boring combat. I found the character development system to be uninteresting, too.

BTW, if you are longing for great tactical turn-based combat get a Playstation (emulator) and the game "Vandal Hearts" (the original, not "Vandal Hearts 2"). Unlike Final Fantasy Tactics (Advance (2)) that game actually made me think now and then. Another plus is the relatively mature and interesting story line. I got the game recently after various people told me that it is the best Tactical RPG so far (and I like that genre in general). And yes, they were right!

 

[OSK]

I got the game recently after various people told me that it is the best Tactical RPG so far (and I like that genre in general). And yes, they were right!

Have you tried Tactics Ogre?

 

[Higher Game]

Der Langrisser is the king of jtac games.

 

[Goliath]

I got the game recently after various people told me that it is the best Tactical RPG so far (and I like that genre in general). And yes, they were right!

Have you tried Tactics Ogre?

Yes.

 

[gamefan]

DO NOT PLAY VANDEL HEARTS. It's a piece of shit.

Final fantasy tactics was a great game( the playstation/psp one) it actually didnt have a gay jap storyline like other final fantasy's. stay away from fft advanced though.

personally i dont like spiderweb's games but thats just my opinion. nethergate is shit btw, avernum's are meh, a bit below average for me same with geneforge.

 

[Dhruin]

2. It seems we like the same kind of games and I cannot recommend the Vogel stuff. I have played 1/3 of Avernum 4 and 1/4 of Geneforge 3. I eventually quit both games because they just weren't much fun for me. The character development systems in both games were simplistic and uninteresting. Tactics? Nope. Oh, except "buff up the entire party to the max before entering combat" - a very annoying aspect BTW (because it means endless, repetitive casting of buff spells before each battle). Story line and quests were utterly generic in Avernum. Really, as if they were produced by the fantasy RPG cookie cutter quest and story machine. You know the "kill some big rats in the cellar" type stuff. Geneforge's theme is less generic, in fact it is unique, but it did not grab me either. Before I eventually quit nothing had happened except reading through a story line which somehow reminded me of a JRPG (that's not a compliment) and various episodes of boring combat. I found the character development system to be uninteresting, too.

You've played part of two games and AV4 is one of the weaker ones. I agree that the combat is simple (though AV5 is improved) but you've dismissed Geneforge too readily. If he were looking for a strat RPG, I'd definitely say "pass" but neither Arcanum nor PS:T have combat worth even discussing, so sometimes there is more to an RPG than the combat weaknesses.

 

[Higher Game]

Vogel's combat situations are better described as strategic, not tactical. Your results in combat are mostly a result of how you built your character long term and buffed short term. Stuff like terrain, aiming at weak points, and so on are simply not to be found, since his games are more RPG than turn based tactics. So, combat itself is simplistic, but planning for it is not. Your tastes will determine how much you like it.

 

[Jasede]

Try Geneforge 4 indeed. If you find to like it, you open up a wonderful world of open-ended RPGs with many choices and a large, decently (but -not- well) written gameworld. The writing is best described as sufficient; is however praised to high heavens here because people are starved for an old-fashioned RPG that also has many choices and consequences to your character, something where Spiderweb games do deliver.

That said, I never managed to like them, and I enjoy Dark Hearts of Uukrul, Darklands, Wizardry (all) and all the great dungeon crawlers; the graphics are just too stressfully awful for me and the writing, while fair enough, isn't nearly as good enough to keep me interested in Vogel's worlds.

To conclude, if you warm up to the awful graphics and the bad interface and clunky controls and mediocre-to-decent writing (your mileage may vary concerning the writing, depending on your standards and tolerance) you'll find really great games. But if you don't, maybe it's time to replay Wizardry 6 to 8 and FINALLY give that Diamond Ring from 6 to Bela in 8 and be amazed that the developers actually put in something for this event. I wish there were more games like these.

 

[Higher Game]

I appreciate that Vogel's games are independently good and don't use character transfer. He even said in an interview once that he doesn't expect people to play every one of his games, which probably explains some of the boring story characteristics. He doesn't want you to have to play several games just to understand the next one, so he keeps things really simple to summarize, and so on. You have to take them individually, not as a group. Hell, that's why many recommend playing his latest, in the same way that many strategy gamers usually play the most recent game in a series, like Civilization. They're all really similar, except the latest is usually more fleshed out, although Avernum 4 is admittedly a little weak.

 

[MaskedMartyr]

Avernum 3 is definitely the best one out of the series that I've played. The first 3 games give off an ultima vibe for me, and A3 has the most choices & consequences, on that's particularly big (enormous cities with a ton of dialogue/content/etc. can be destroyed if you neglect the main quest for too long). Plus it offers the most unique perspective of being the first Avernite to get to the surface and everyone reacts accordingly.

 

[mondblut]

That Spiderweb game is very good. Too bad it is marketed as 20 different games.

 

[Aikanaro]

I love to obsess over diffrent ways to build my party/characterand loathe having "leveling up" an automatic or non-interactive process (I.E. Your Mage gained a lvl. HP up. MP up. Gained spell: FIREBALL)

Creations are highly expendable, so there's a lot of building/rebuilding parties. The combat as a whole isn't that good, but it's not horrible either. Leveling up isn't automatic, and you have to go and find new spells and such yourself.

You might as well start with the first game though. It makes a lot more sense to play them in order - playing 4 without having played 2 wouldn't be as interesting, IMO. 1, 2, and 4 are all roughly the same quality anyway.

 

[Dhruin]

Yeah, but when the OP can't decide if he likes the demo and a chunk of the posters in the thread think all his games are the same (or whatever the complaint is), what are the chances of playing every game through to completion? Just start with the latest.

 

[Korgan]

Vogel's games can be a little extreme, if you know what I mean.

 

[JarlFrank]

You sure like the word EXTREME, Korgan.

P.S. I only got a few weeks left till summer holidays, so I'd be ready for a little game of Don't Rest Your Head pretty soon