Preview Karma and using action points in Fallout 3

[Naked Ninja]

The whole Radiant AI thing (people stare at walls)

They sit around and stare a lot less than Morrowind and much less than the original Fallout. Oh, sorry, that was a low blow.

the setting the dog on fire episode (which was mostly scripted and not Radiant at all)

Can you tell me exactly which parts of that were scripted? Cause that type of over-reaction is exactly what I expect from AI. Personally, I'm glad they removed that, it was ridiculous.

the better writing that was promised in Oblivion (it was promised to be better than Morrowind)

You need to learn the difference between lying and "attempting but failing". They got closer to dialogue trees with Oblivion, which many people felt was a step up from the HTML like topics system of MW. So maybe they thought it was better. Blimey, what a radical notion!

You even admitted yourself in this thread that "the door thing sounds negative".

...but that the dialogue thing sounds positive. Don't quote only half of my statement to make it seem like I agree with you but am arguing for nothing, please.

Speaking of someone who's trying too hard... That's called an example.

No, it isn't. Dialogue really does mean more to me than a gimmicky gun. Or th fact that a gun shoots a "mini-nuclear explosion". Surprisingly, if I am willing to accept that there is a gun capable of shooting "mini" nuclear explosion I can also accept that said explosions might have little or no radiation. Science fiction, yes? Maybe it's cold fusion or some such shit. This game also has ray guns does it not?

Music has been criticised by several reviews

Oh noes!

the open-ness of the world has been questioned

Well, that will certainly be how I'll be judging F3 :

- Good dialogue : Check
- Good C&C : Check
- Open World : FAIL

THIS GAEM SUXS I WANT MONEY BACK!

I don't care if the world isn't considered open by people expecting TES like free-roaming.

the entire setting has been mentioned as being a poor imitation of the original Fallouts

Which is certainly not what you want from a beloved game's sequel, sure. I understand your frustration. But if the dialogue actually turns out to have some good roleplay, I'm going to give them credit for it, is that ok with the Fallout Fan Club? You're all trying too hard to find the negatives while acting like it takes a genius to implement dialogue trees with skill checks attached. No. They didn't do it for Oblivion, doesn't mean they can't do it.

You liked Morrowind's dialogue?

It was ok. It wasn't so much dialogue back-and-forth as information probing but it wasn't bad. Combined with the interesting setting I enjoyed it.

Love your style, NN.

I know you do matey.

i c wut u did thar

Do you?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ghzIeZtSyJs

And the excuse "others do it" isn't really good.

Really nice video. I LOVED Bloodlines, what a great game.

How about this trailer :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-EI6pVtuYqw

Almost no dialogue, main focus is "Holy crap we're using the Source Engine!!!" and low angle shots of characters walking to show off the pretty graphics.

Hmmm. It's almost like...like its a trailer only showing one aspect of a multi-aspect game. But...that idea...its too radical! No, the only possibility is that by the time of the first video they had ONLY implemented low camera angle shots of characters walking and a single dialogue and THEN LATER they added all the rest of the skill checks and stuff in by the time they made the next video! Yes, that is the only possibility! Because otherwise, what with them knowing that they were making an RPG, their trailers would all have been about showing skill checks and dialogue, amirite?

Get a grip. I'll be damn surprised if this is all or even most of what Bethesda will demo in the month or two leading up to the release.

 

[Black]

Do you?

Yeah, you were comparing a tech demo for devs etc to a game trailer for consumers. Funny shit.

Really nice video. I LOVED Bloodlines, what a great game.

How about this trailer :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-EI6pVtuYqw

Almost no dialogue, main focus is "Holy crap we're using the Source Engine!!!" and low angle shots of characters walking to show off the pretty graphics.

Nice try, no dice. Completely missed the point. Because while there is a trailer that shows almost nothing, there are also many other trailers that show various things- character creation, dialogue, environment etc. And what has beth shown, few months before FO3 release? Combat, lockpicking minigame, combat, hacking minigame, combat, vats, combat, nukular exploshuns, combat and flying teddy bears.

Enlighten me- who forbade bethesda to make more than one trailer? Who forbade them to show dialogue? Who forbade them to actually show anything besides combat?

 

[Jaesun]

Hmm I am actually surprised that in that dialog picture, there isn't a picture of Vault Boy smiling and an arrow pointing to one of the lines and text "This is the NICE Option!". And another one with a frowning Vault Boy "This is the MEAN option!".

Maybe that is what they are working on now.

 

[Claw]

so action points only matter when using VATS?

If it's a real time twitch-reflex combat system, will stats even matter?

Sigh, didn't you pay any attention to the previews? Skills will affect mainly damage and, to a lesser degree, spead with ranged weapons.

I'll wait and see the actual implementation before passing final judgment but this is certainly a ray of hope.

Fuck hope. You know the saying "hope dies last"? You know what it means? It means that hope dies.
I prefer a painful end over endless pain. Let it die.

Enlighten me- who forbade bethesda to make more than one trailer? Who forbade them to show dialogue? Who forbade them to actually show anything besides combat?

Noone. They did make more than one trailer. They just don't show dialogue in any of them.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Yeah, you were comparing a tech demo for devs etc to a game trailer for consumers. Funny shit.

Whoever made that demo video sure thought his viewers were more interested in seeing flame thrower action than dialogue though, didn't he?

Nice try, no dice. Completely missed the point. Because while there is a trailer that shows almost nothing, there are also many other trailers that show various things- character creation, dialogue, environment etc. And what has beth shown, few months before FO3 release? Combat, lockpicking minigame, combat, hacking minigame, combat, vats, combat, nukular exploshuns, combat and flying teddy bears.

Enlighten me- who forbade bethesda to make more than one trailer? Who forbade them to show dialogue? Who forbade them to actually show anything besides combat?

No, it's you who've missed the point friend. First video in what is almost certainly going to be a series of them leading up to the release. I'm willing to bet they will dole out a little more info every so often as the time draws nearer. They aren't "forbidden" from showing dialogue, don't be silly. But this video they have shown is plainly about VATS combat. I wouldn't be surprised if we see "environments" and "dialogues/quests/NPCs" in future vids.

Like I said, you're holding up the very first piece of real media released about this game against what, the entire stable of media that was released for Bloodlines? Great comparison. Lets come back in 2 months and see if the content demo'd in all the released vids at that point isn't broader in scope, shall we?

 

[The Lawnmower]

I don't think Bethesda seem to grasp a lot of things.

One of those things is that Fallout is a post-apocalyptic future from the perspective of the 50's. They've only given a slight nod to the original fallout (by including pipboy) but mostly disregarded this in its design.

For example: the vault suit was made out of a tight spandexish material. Now it appears to be a loose jump suit type thing. This is a relatively minor thing, but it shows their disregard for the style of the original, which was one of the excellent things about it.

Oblivion was horrible. This game is going to be horrible. They have taken nothing good from Fallout, and the things they have taken are extremely weak (like the humour) and half-arsed (like 'v.a.t.s.').


Also, the animations absolutely suck. One of the cool things about fallout was the way you could satifyingly blow chunks out of enemies (or explode them, in the case of rats) when you killed them with Bloody Mess. In the demo for FO3 it just looks retarded.

 

[Naked Ninja]

They did make more than one trailer

Really? So all those trailers aren't just slightly different points along a single "run through some streets and shoot some guys" section?

I think not. It's basically multiple takes on the same small section of the game.

 

[Murk]

Sigh, didn't you pay any attention to the previews? Skills will affect mainly damage and, to a lesser degree, spead with ranged weapons.

Hell no i didn't, there's like ten per day and they're all the same. a blowjob followed by ball jiggling

 

[FrancoTAU]

Naked Ninja should get a Devil's Advocate tag. It seems like every couple weeks, he decides to take the lone unpopular view on something and argue it.

 

[Erzherzog]

To be honest, this is one of the better Codex discussions in a while.

 

[Gragt]

I even remember Torment having an action oriented trailer (looked good though). NN has a point about it.

And it's good he discusses it, especially the way he does it, you always need people like that.

 

[Claw]

Screw dialogs. I'm still waiting for the dynamic soft shadows on ribcages and other miscellaneous items that was promised (and demo'd) in Oblivion.

Buy Gothic 3 then.

Didn't Fallout had a demo? It looks a much better example than Baldurs Gate or Bloodlines. Does anyone remember it it was possible to try different skills and quest approaches?

I remember the demo pretty well. It played in a modified version of the first junktown map, with some Raider-like types added I believe.
I don't recall any explicit quests, but you could sneak around, pick pockets, lockpick several containers and of course kill some dudes.
I'll be honest, I loved the death animations, particularly shredding opponents with burst fire.

Really?

Yes.

So all those trailers aren't just slightly different points along a single "run through some streets and shoot some guys" section?

Sorry, you're wrong. They mostly are just that.

It's basically multiple takes on the same small section of the game.

Well, some contain footage of combat with super mutants, which I haven't seen in any of the "E3 demo" videos, so that's at least a slightly different part of the game, although it may be just a few yards from that location.

 

[Black]

Whoever made that demo video sure thought his viewers were more interested in seeing flame thrower action than dialogue though, didn't he?

Whoever made that demo video sure knew it's not for advertisement. Honestly, why do you keep comparing a tech demo of an early alpha version to a trailer of nearly finished game, used for marketing purposes?

No, it's you who've missed the point friend. First video in what is almost certainly going to be a series of them leading up to the release. I'm willing to bet they will dole out a little more info every so often as the time draws nearer. They aren't "forbidden" from showing dialogue, don't be silly. But this video they have shown is plainly about VATS combat. I wouldn't be surprised if we see "environments" and "dialogues/quests/NPCs" in future vids.

We already have a series of videos. First was teaser trailer, now we have had a couple of hands-ons. And none of them actually shows dialogue. Of course we WILL see vids with dialogue. But when? And how much? Because consumers have wanted to know how dialogue looks like for a long, long time. Even on TES forums.

Like I said, you're holding up the very first piece of real media released about this game

Oh, but it's not the first piece.

 

[Rhombus]

Will doors and items be marked in green when opening/taking them will make your karma go up?

 

[elander_]

Found the demo and played it in win95 compatibility mode.
http://www.svatopluk.com/fallout/download/demo.stm

There's a quest to rid the small town of two gangs (optimal ending) but if you can rid them of just one is still ok. The one you will keep in power is up to you and you don't have to fight at all (if you pick the stronger gang). As usual with Fallout quests if you try to be too smart you will get punished. It's not a shiny example of c&c but it lets us try other skills besides combat like sneaking and picking. The writing and the small gags remind me immediately of Fallout.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

If is has good dialogues with choices and consequences then do you really give a fuck about some minor quirk like being able to kill people with high velocity stuffed animals? Holy nitpicking batman!

See, here's the thing about this argument and Fallout 3....you're basically ignoring the bad, and singling out only the good elements and saying it will be good. See, I don't exactly think Fallout 3 is going to be the role-playing anti-christ, but based on what we've seen, any good elements of role-playing are going to be buried under mounds of crap filler. And that's what basically validates all this "nit-picking". Because the stuff we're "nit-picking" is probably the stuff we'll be encountering in gameplay more than good RPG elements.

Think of it this way, Arcanum was a really great role-playing game, but the terrible combat,and the abundance of it in certain areas really brought the game down. But it was good on-balance, because most of the time, I was engaged in the good content, the interesting content, the content I bargained for. Same deal with Bloodlines for the majority of the game, it's good for the most part, and I'm doing all the fun role-playing, and stuff like the sewers are a scant minority as far as content goes.

See, that's what leads into my personal problem with Fallout 3; that I won't be doing fun role-playing stuff the majority of the game. In fact, it seems like a minority. Chances are, I will be slogging through boring combat, minigames, and dungeon crawls most of the time, with role-playing the proverbial "carrot dangled in front of the dog's nose"....and the player's the dog. I don't like that. I generally don't very much enjoy games where I have to "work" by slogging through boring sections to get to the "good stuff". It's why I don't generally enjoy jRPGs, it's why I hacked (cheating style, not sword style) my way through the NWN OC, it's why I dropped KOTOR halfway through for 7 months before completing it, it's why I couldn't stomach more than an hour or two of Jade Empire, it's why after a few hours in Oblivion I made a mad dash to find any content of redeeming value. I, ideally, like my games to be inherently fun and interesting, not boring on-balance. Fallout 3 doesn't look to provide much of interest. Why you ask?

-Setting is pretty dodgy. For every "Oh,that's cool, Mr.Handy in 3d!" or "Oh wow, that's an interesting new element integrated into the setting by Bethesda" I'm likely going to be shaking my head in dismay at some idiocy.

-Humor seems dodgy as well. Some things like the "Local Cult" sign, the "Perfect Life", and such are generally funny. Other things are forced and stupid, like the fatman, the "Let us in motherfuckers", and many more I'm sure more hardcore followers than I would love to rattle off by the dozen.

-Combat looks like crap. Same dumb Oblivion enemies, but now focused on ranged combat. And if you played Oblivion, you'd know that ranged combat in that game felt more primitive than Doom. Plus, by the previews and interviews with mentions of mandatory "dungeons" and encounters, baring a stealth character, it seems like I'll be forced into a lot of it. And Oblivion's stealth was no fun either....

-Dialogue and plot quality...we don't know. Still, even if it's spectacular, it's going to be drowned out by all the dull or awful features filling up gameplay time.

-Minigames...terrible creatures, I avoid them whenever I can.

-Role-playing looks to be a mixed bag. The heavy Karma element looks bad, but the mention of perks and skills allowing quest options seems nice. Still, if I'm only doing stuff like that for small amounts of time and spending more time doing stuff like clearing out the Dwemer Ruins.....I mean Super Duper Mart for a person in Balmora....I mean Megaton....how much does this matter?

To put it bluntly, why shouldn't I complain about the features that are most likely going to be the ones forced on me the most? To go back to the Arcanum analogy, would anyone have enjoyed that game nearly as much if one had to slog through 5 Black Mountain Clan Mines to each Tarant?

 

[Bradylama]

Naked Ninja there is a fine line between Devil's Advocacy and Insipid Contrarianism, yet you have without fail found something wrong with codexian posts in just about all of these threads. Not that there isn't plenty to criticize, but that you without fail default into apologetics.

Your posting is as predictable as the sun rise. Please stop if you're not up to the task.

 

[Zomg]

There's nothing wrong with contrarianism, but NN is unpleasant in that he seems to mostly contrare Eastern Europeans that make fine points in English like Einsatzgruppen made fine points in their granddad's head, and at excruciating length.

 

[MetalCraze]

One of the magazines already wrote that conversations with people are on a par with Oblivion - and that magazine kept pretty down to earth tone - neutral tone. Wired also wrote something that the writing is poor.
Yet NN managed to single out only "zomg there are so many C&C and quality dialogues" from magazines where everything else is either a ball-licking or a praise of even the most stupidest things. So yeah you gotta believe them.
Also didn't the same magazines write how many C&C are there in Oblivion's quests?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I agree with you but am arguing for nothing

You are¹. You're like a rabid little yapping puppy upset that some guys want to talk about the flaws and rather than actually talking about the positive stuff, start attacking the guys who dare speak about the negative stuff.

If you want to say "This sounds awsum guys!" and wet your pants, nobody's stopping you. You're entitled to your opinion about "how much Bethesda will have improved this time, honest". Why complain about people who are talking about the negative stuff though? What do you want us to do, add disclaimers every time we post that some things might actually be improvements, even if the vast majority of stuff isn't?

¹Quotes taken out of context are fun!

No, it isn't. Dialogue really does mean more to me than a gimmicky gun.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/han ... allou.html

Unfortunately, as my half an hour with the game a few moments ago demonstrated, all the external pieces are there, but the charm that made the series such a classic is almost entirely lacking.

The key problem with the game though is in the writing. It really feels like someone wrote a fanfic based on the Fallout universe and somehow got the funding to create a game based on it. Though the story and characters are suitably gritty and conflicted, none of them are terribly likeable and the entire thing simply feels like it's trying too hard to adhere to the tenets of its predecessors.

Yep. The dialogue's been criticised too. It's "the key problem with the game". So, what redeeming features are there for us to be positive about now? The graphics?

 

[Longshanks]

Skill checks in dialogue are a step in the right direction beyond Oblivion, but being told again (this is far from new info) that they're in is nothing to get excited over (unless you're really straining to find a small bit of positive in the crap-load of negative). It was always expected, many RPGs do it, many of them are terrible. NWN2 and Lionheart had many dialogue skill checks, and decently written dialogue. The quality of Fallout 3's dialogue and roleplaying in same, can not really be judged until after release. There is no point in celebrating such a very small improvement over Oblivion, I'm looking for a good RPG/game, not one that's better than Oblivion, there's thousands of those.

As with Edward_Murrow, even fairly good dialogue and C&C will not be enough to save Fallout 3 from here. It's going to have to surpass Bloodlines in both respects, to be worth playing. The open, continous world, the many dungeons, the many small insignificant quests, the terrible use of Karma, over the top crappy-looking gore, the unending list of inanity (fatman, exploding nuclear cars, killer teddy bears, drinking toilet water, corpse eating, bobble-head collecting, mesmatron, rock-it launcher, find daddy plot, moronic Megaton quest, home decorating, GTA-like hair styling...)

 

[Suchy]

it's so retardet that it's just sad.
[/skyway]


No seriously... on that "dialogue" screenshot, there's a TOPIC LIST on the right! What the fuck?

Player: Jericho
NPC: Have you heard the news? Someone solved the radcrab problem in Jericho.

 

[MetalCraze]

I believe Jericho is a NPC name
and behind him is a Megaton's nuke. Beth can't avoid adding retardation even on such screenshots.

 

[Archaeon]

Nekkid Ninja, you silly little fanboi, know your place! (hint: it's on the beth forums )

 

[Suchy]

I believe Jericho is a NPC name

If it's just a name and not the topic list, then ok. Neverthless I can't really see those multiple and meaningful dialogue choices.