People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

[Grauken]

Yes, most of these stories could work with women just as well (don't know Your Friends and Neighbors, American Pastoral, though).

 

[MRY]

Yes, most of these stories could work with women just as well (don't know Your Friends and Neighbors, American Pastoral, though).

Sorry, but no. This really sounds like a very modern interpretation

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We'll have to just live and let live on this one.

 

[Grotesque]

to think, we used to take hiver posts for granted. now, in these dark times, they're like rays of light.

Is Mr. Hiver the same retard named Hiver from a while back?

 

[Mr. Hiver]

It seems like you've misunderstood what "painted over (and peeling back from)" means here.

I neither missed that or misunderstood it.
If that was your point then you would have sticked to that, instead of barely mentioning it and then expanding on that other irrelevant nonsense.

Its the very core of the character and the story - over which other features are painted over and peeled from, subverted and deconstructed and so explored. Including the gender and all gender connected stuff which doesnt really play and big crucial role in the game story or the setting by default.

The rest of your post really just boils down to your view that an author can swap the gender of a character and it makes no difference because neither traits nor relationships are shaped in any respect by gender.

Wrong again. And a strawman. Do the hrklyush again.

The gender matters, but not as much as you think it does and certainly not as much as quality characterization and writing - with further interaction with core mechanics, setting and gameplay.
As i already literally said. TNO did not attract and influence others by being a walking dick. Although he presumably had one... which was functioning... but better not to think about that at all.

TNO as written is definitely a male, which then presents that angle to the core story and themes that are explored, but being a male is not crucial for that.

I am surprised that you think nothing about TNO or his relationship with other characters in the game was intended to reflect TNO being male

But thats not what i think. Thats what you think i think - distorted by your incorrect opinions. Based on .... ughh, its that portal again!

Humans are primarily humans, which then differ through various other features such as gender. But gender is not a primary feature of any of us, although some idiots may think so but thats dunning kruger for you, nor does it preclude investigating any of the PsT core themes and issues any which way character is built. Some adjustments is all it would take.

Skall

you seem to imply that no real changes would be necessary (aside from logistics like pronouns, I presume). I guess my position is more in the middle: some changes would be required.

I do not imply any such thing. And i literally say so. Some changes would need to be made, of course. But not to any of the actual core themes and subjects or events. And of course i believe Chris would be able to do so in great ways.

After all, he made me like the experience of relieving "my own" birth, in detail.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I would have thought that the idea that PS:T is about a male character with male flaws engaged in male relationships would be fairly uncontroversial.

Sorry, but no. This really sounds like a very modern interpretation, independent of what your politics are. When it came out most people didn't view it from a gendered viewpoint, just a human one

We did? The vast majority of people who played Planescape: Torment when it came out were young men, so I'm not sure this tells us anything other than that most people assume their experiences and worldview are universal. I know that most of the girls I recommended the game to found parts of it cringe inducing, even when they liked it.

Maybe it depends on what you think the most important parts of the story are. But, for example, I don't think anyone could honestly claim that TNO's relationship with Morte would work with a female protagonist. And even if you gender swap Deionarra, that scene in the sensory stone takes on different connotations if TNO is female--it would have more of a black widow vibe. How about a female nameless one and Mr. Ravel Puzzlewell? You're telling me that, "we were romantically involved, you wanted to be immortal, I made it happen but accidentally took away all of your memories," doesn't have different connotations with a female protagonist? Because my response would've been something like, "man, that was one abusive relationship," which is not how I reacted to Ravel in the PS:T we actually got.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I would have thought that the idea that PS:T is about a male character with male flaws engaged in male relationships would be fairly uncontroversial.

Sorry, but no. This really sounds like a very modern interpretation, independent of what your politics are. When it came out most people didn't view it from a gendered viewpoint, just a human one

We did? The vast majority of people who played Planescape: Torment when it came out were young men, so I'm not sure this tells us anything other than that most people assume their experiences and worldview are universal. I know that most of the girls I recommended the game to found parts of it cringe inducing, even when they liked it.

Maybe it depends on what you think the most important parts of the story are. But, for example, I don't think anyone could honestly claim that TNO's relationship with Morte would work with a female protagonist. And even if you gender swap Deionarra, that scene in the sensory stone takes on different connotations if TNO is female--it would have more of a black widow vibe. How about a female nameless one and Mr. Ravel Puzzlewell? You're telling me that, "we were romantically involved, you wanted to be immortal, I made it happen but accidentally took away all of your memories," doesn't have different connotations with a female protagonist? Because my response would've been something like, "man, that was one abusive relationship," which is not how I reacted to Ravel in the PS:T we actually got.

Morte would be trying to fuck you the whole game.

 

[Grauken]

Man, I must have missed all the essays on PST as a male power fantasy when it came out

 

[MRY]

“What can change the nature of a person?”

 

[Grauken]

Lots of money, power also works

 

[Prime Junta]

“What can change the nature of a person?”

I think a gender-swapped TNO would have been entirely workable. It would have created a certain tension with some elements of her past, but not in a bad way.

 

[Spectacle]

“What can change the nature of a person?”

These days, you can get a full respec at most taverns for a modest amount of coin.

 

[ScrotumBroth]

These days, you can get a full respec at most taverns for a modest amount of coin.

Less troublesome than dying and resurrecting.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Even the basic arc -- a person thinks that if he only has more power he can fix problems,

Thats what one of the past incarnations thought. Not this TNO. This one starts from not knowing anything at all and runs into consequences of that incarnation and other past deeds long before he or the player can form such a simplistic opinion in any form stronger then the usual gaming/rpg behavior of increasing skills and finding better items - which is immediately subverted too.

only to discover that the accumulation of power creates ever-greater problems requiring ever-greater moral compromises -- is an arc that is almost always told about men.

Seems it would work perfectly for any such quasi-feminist idea, which are often expressed, although i dont think Chris would singularly focus on that angle. As he didnt in the case of the male TNO either, except as consequences of the past and memories of other lives.
Also, "almost always told about men" is irrelevant as a reason for anything.

“What can change the nature of a person?”

Apparently many things, except nothing can change a nature of a male, a "babe" and a grandma. If you are one of those - thats it buddeh. You are locked into those two dimensional mazes for eternity.
In other words, you can rip mortality from your flesh, reincarnate a thousand times - but you cant change your dick. Not even Ravel can figure that one out. The internet or any amount of belief.
Or Chris Avellone unleashed upon the planes.


Skall

As you've said, a lot of its core elements (e.g., the fear of death/desire for immortality) are more universally human concepts rather than gendered ones.

I think those can be assigned only to the original TNO, before he made the deal with Ravel. With our TNO we are immediately thrown into a different, even deeper game, where death is seemingly not an issue itself but trying to escape consequences of immortality and figure out what can change our nature. As well as "is the immortality worth it" considering the cost of not just creating shades and torment we create and feel, but the fact you lose "yourself" in numerous incarnations. Neither of those were strong considerations in the gameplay unfortunately, (although i can just imagine the screams of players losing progress, journal entries, levels, items and skills... ), but they were crucial in the narrative.

Grauken agris Bohr

Spoiler

One other thing to consider, if this hypothetical option was done - it wouldn't change who male TNO is. That character would remain the same as he is.
Nothing would be lost. Nor would he be a tranny or whatever. There would just be another version of TNO too. Its the magic of the vidya gaems.

But that other option isnt automatically good just by itself. It could end up badly, wrong, uninspired, cheap. etc - the pudding is in the execution.
And only if that would be good - would that option be actually a good thing to have.

Anyway, itll be interesting to see what Chris says about it.

 

[Shadenuat]

Can't think of any wRPGs, though I doubt that would be true if Chris had been allowed to run with the female-protagonist Last Rites, since many would have followed in his lead (as they did with the male-protagonist PS:T).

Huh, I thought KOTOR2 was the female MCA game. You get better experience and I think even some content if you play as female. And Kreia being buddy with female Meera Sulik makes all kinds of sense, like a twisted mother/daughter/teacher relationship.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

That female PC is a BS Lucas Arts invention. Kreia is obviously Ravel analogue, one in the pattern, and the PC is the Nameless one. Gender of the PC is immaterial in that relation.

 

[Shadenuat]

Is it? I may not remember correctly, but the restored content heavily implies on PC being female as a "default" choice. And then it was made canonical in the whatchacallit, err, the old SW expanded universe.

Roguey you tell us

 

[Roguey]

Is it? I may not remember correctly, but the restored content heavily implies on PC being female as a "default" choice. And then it was made canonical in the whatchacallit, err, the old SW expanded universe.

Roguey you tell us

Handmaiden's a better character than Disciple. Revan's the one that makes more sense as female, since she's wearing female mandalorian armor in the flashbacks.

 

[Latro]

I think what's actually perturbing about the "TNO was almost female" revelation is that it undermines MCA as the writing demigod who intentionally penned TNO as the flawed male protagonist that he is

that makes MCA look way better in my eyes, he was able to pen an enduring character "on the fly" during a turbulent design change

 

[Shadenuat]

Wasn't it MCA who said something like "Sex is great, I love sex" although he is "not great writing about love and romance". It seems like a honest and simple point and Planescape having both babes and humor (Morte) and twisted depressive romance would be normal.

 

[Chris Avellone]

To answer MRY's point in more detail, a number of projects hadn't survived past pitch phase at Interplay (including a bunch of Forgotten Realms projects), and others were in jeopardy (Doomguard, although I think that would have been a good Planescape project, and clones of King's Field I don't think would have been poorly received at the time).

We also recognized (team-wise) that perhaps what we were proposing might be viewed as too strange/inaccessible and grimdark, so we added some elements we thought might make it more accessible for marketing to get their sign-off. So I went through each bulletpoint and tried to think about how stupid it sounded to someone who might (genuinely) not care about the proposal and be focused on more superficial elements - I find that's one of the best ways to encourage a positive reception; you tear/demean your own ideas down first (but the trick is, you keep the ideas intact, you just provide a counter-irreverent perspective), and the person arguing the issue is left with nothing except, "it seems like they're aware of my viewpoint."

What was unusual was while marketing may have been placated, Fargo appreciated more the spirit of Morte vs. his actual text, and Fargo was actually more focused on the details of the spell system, for example (changing scents on opponents so dogs, animals, and rats swarm someone they perceived as a friend). His concern, pragmatically, wasn't in the overall design, but if we could do everything the design doc promised, which I argue was a legitimate concern and ended up being true: we certainly didn't do everything that was promised, so he was right to ask those questions based on his experience. That said, once he threw in his support, everyone else was pretty cool/quiet on the issue, which made me realize maybe I should have pre-showed it to Fargo first (although I don't think this would have solved everything, based on problems with F2, where non-Fargo folks still interfered, perhaps more-so b/c Fargo was involved more directly).

It may have been said elsewhere in the thread, but had we more resources, I would have designed more of a game like KOTOR2 if we didn't have a serious character model budget (KOTOR2 is less about gender and more about the fundamental problem in the galaxy at large). We did know that resource limitation before doing the Planescape vision doc, however, so the doc was tailored in that direction and Wizards/TSR certainly wasn't at a point where they wanted anything more than traditional sensibilities in their games (this went all the way up to Mask of the Betrayer and beyond, but if you want to work with a license, you respect its parameters). When we explained the story to them, their concern (inc. Monte Cook) wasn't about sexuality/gender, it was about making sure that Sigil and the Planes were shown as a diverse set of peoples. That may have been his only comment, actually.

Also, MRY, I do regret we never had the chance to interact more on TTON; beyond doing reviews of story, Erritis writing, Sagus Cliffs review and suggestions for faction quests, I am disappointed we didn't have a chance to share more design elements. Next time, I say. : )

EDIT: Also, if someone could walk me through how to call a specific user name in a quote (MRY), I'd appreciate it. Yes, I'm old.

EDIT 2: Thanks to everyone for the help on Edit 1. : )

 

[Darth Roxor]

EDIT: Also, if someone could walk me through how to call a specific user name in a quote (MRY), I'd appreciate it. Yes, I'm old.

@[username]

Chris Avellone

 

[Cyberarmy]

Also, if someone could walk me through how to call a specific user name in a quote (MRY), I'd appreciate it. Yes, I'm old.

put @ in front of any name you want to summon your highness.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Wasn't it MCA who said something like "Sex is great, I love sex" although he is "not great writing about love and romance". It seems like a honest and simple point and Planescape having both babes and humor (Morte) and twisted depressive romance would be normal.

People are making the mistake of viewing this through 2018 eyes. We're talking about a time when Disney - fucking Disney!!! - sold teenage starlets (Brittany 16 yrs old, Christina 15 yrs old) as sexy schoolgirls with no thought of moral backlash or subtlety, all the backing dancers in skimpy torn schoolgirl uniforms, top of the pop charts and the only outrage was how shit their music was.

Spoiler

Of course, some might say that's just the US's weird combination of prudishness + sex-obsession playing out in different ways, from 1950s puritanism to Jerry Springer & media collectively becoming the paedo uncle to a generation of teenage pop stars (and the same publications then making the story about how stupid/crazy/slutty Brittany etc are, rather than about the media exploiting a bunch of teenage girls and laughing at them for growing up exactly as fucked up as you'd expect from that shit), and now it's back full circle for another round at "the puritanism of the born-again prostitute", where their bad life choices get made into everyone else's moral failings until the pendulum swings and they start calling us prudes again..

 

[screeg]

Feel like the Hiver/MRY disagreement stems from evaluating the game in entirely different contexts. MRY is looking at PST from the perspective of literary tradition going back centuries (millennia really), featuring almost exclusively male protagonists in pretty much exclusively male situations. I agree that this analysis is uncontroversial, if you're looking at the narrative in that context, and if you accept there is a literary history and it influences writing.

Hiver is deconstructing the game at face value, as if the narrative sprang into being wholly formed from a turn-of-the-century mind completely uninfluenced by anything that had ever come before. The story was written for a male character. Whether or not you *could* swap out a female character is irrelevant. The fact that the character doesn't have sex with NPCs isn't the point.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Thats Mr. Hiver for you peon.

I at the very least have some common sense and decency not to strawman what others are thinking, as if im telepathic and then argue against that.
Besides that your whole argument is stupid appeal to "millenia of literally tradition" fallacy through which you attempt to imply i am somehow against "it" - while also trying to establish that PsT writing was specific adherence to that "millenia of literally tradition" which is laughably idiotic for several reasons, most obvious one being that there isnt any such thing as singular specific "literally tradition".

Im going to kindly urge you not to twist my words or try to put your own into my mouth, else further replies will be much harsher.