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1eyedking Planescape: Torment doesn't have good writing (Part 2)

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I don't see why not. The fact there are things that cannot be proven or objectively defined in a discursive manner doesn't mean they cannot be discussed. I don't have to be able to "prove" a certain truth to you to express it, and the fact said truth cannot be proven discursively doesn't mean it isn't worth expressing, for knowledge of this kind is inward anyway, and by uttering said truth one can generate an inward realization in the listener. This is the basis of all ancient wisdom or "philosophy" (in the older sense of the word). In the Gospel of John, we are told that "in the beginning was the Word (Logos), and that the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is a metaphysical proposition. Nothing in this statement is "proven" discursively, but St. John still expected you to understand what he meant.

This is how all knowledge of an invisible kind is passed along.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with all this. My only point was regarding the futility of trying to convince Safov otherwise. Also, it's much easier to discuss things such as the Bible without having to prove them discursively because they can be and have been proven in countless other ways throughout history. It's a little less easy to do that with something like PS:T. Either way, ignore my first post, As I'm about to argue with this retard despite it.
You're not listening. There are common standards we can use to judge the quality of writing, but you can also use a different set of standards from the norm.

Planescape fails all the standards society has defined for what constitutes good writing. I suppose if you use some different set of standards, you could make the case it has good writing. I'm not doing that however.
Planescape, by societies standard of what constitutes good writing, has bad writing.
The level of narcissism is so fucking ridiculous here. PS:T is widely acclaimed as one of the best written games ever, and has received praise from countless critics, gamers, and writers (some of which you said you respected). And yet, you have the audacity to claim that something with such widespread praise is bad. Your claiming that PS:T is bad according to societies standards of writing when its writing has been widely praised by all accounts throughout society. Your argument literally doesn't have a fucking leg to stand on, and is based entirely on your shit opinnion.
 

Lyric Suite

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Yes, society does have standards for what constitutes good writing. You admitted this yourself when you claimed 'objectively good writing' exists.

I did no such thing, because in my definition of things the "objective" quality in question is not something that is defined externally. Your argument here is that unless something can be examined physically or discursively, it cannot be defined "objective". This is rationalism pure and simple, because you are claiming objectivity lies only within the confines of reason or some kind of strict rational empiricism.

That, to me, is the root cause of the "everything is subjective lul" retardation which is the primary source of everything being shit.
 

roll-a-die

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Yes, society does have standards for what constitutes good writing. You admitted this yourself when you claimed 'objectively good writing' exists.

Someone made an interesting argument in the last thread that Planescape is bad, but it's bad in the same way punk rock is. Punk music, by societies standard of what constitutes good music, is bad music. Planescape, by societies standard of what constitutes good writing, has bad writing. The only difference is that I like Punk Rock and hate Planescape.
First: Fuck off. Who let you decide what society said about something. Are you fucking society or something? Are you able to collectively catalog everyone in the nebulous concept that is society. And collate every opinion to form a magical chart in your god damn head, that says, "This is what is good?" If no. Then you cannot make statements like that. If yes, please provide proof and demostrate that knowledge you have grasped from the nebulous clave of "society"

Second: Take a look at your sentence and compare it too what Lyric has said. And you'll find that this is supporting what they have said.

Next: Take a loot at the societal outlook on Planescape Torment, before you make claims of society deciding it is bad writing.

Finally, please stop being such an obvious troll.
 
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Safav Hamon

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PS:T is widely acclaimed as one of the best written games ever.

Widely acclaimed, yet vastly overrated.

The demographic that finds this shit remotely compelling was pointed out by my friend at the top

It is praised so much because people were semi-suicidal angsty teens or young adults on their quarter life crisis when they played it and it resonated with them in spite of its mediocrity
 
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Safav Hamon

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Second: Take a look at your sentence and compare it too what Lyric has said. And you'll find that this is supporting what they have said.
.

Lyric is claiming that objectively good writing exists and is defined subjectively by himself. Which is stupid.

I'm claiming objectivity good writing doesn't exist, because there's no objective standard for what is considered good writing. There's only the standard used by the majority of educated society, and going by that standard Planescape has garbage writing.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
PS:T is widely acclaimed as one of the best written games ever.

Widely acclaimed, yet vastly overrated.

The demographic that finds this shit remotely compelling was pointed out by my friend at the top

It is praised so much because people were semi-suicidal angsty teens or young adults on their quarter life crisis when they played it and it resonated with them in spite of its mediocrity
Lol alright. Your entire argument is that PS:T has shit writing based on societies standards of what constitutes good writing; except that for all intensive purposes, PS:T is widely praised by society as a game with good writing. In other words, you don't have an argument, and you're a retard. I'm done.

Oh, and the combat in PS:T wasn't really that bad either; people that bitch about it can fuck off too.
 
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Safav Hamon

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Planescape is not widely praised by society. It's widely praised by angsty 14 year old nerds, that have overhyped it well into adulthood.

Oh, and the combat in PS:T wasn't really that bad either; people that bitch about it can fuck off too.

I challenge you to make a thread about it. See how well that goes.
 

FeelTheRads

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He is right, there, though. Fallout 3 on the other hand is widely praised by society. It won awards for its writing. Which means Fallout 3 has good writing.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
He is right, there, though. Fallout 3 on the other hand is widely praised by society. It won awards for its writing. Which means Fallout 3 has good writing.
I never said his metric for determining whether or not a game had good writing was a good one. Societies standards are his metric not mine.

Edit: My mistake, I'm a retard.
 
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FeelTheRads

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Thanks, but that reply was directed at his post right above mine. "Planescape is not widely praised by society." -> "He is right, there, though."
 
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roll-a-die

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Second: Take a look at your sentence and compare it too what Lyric has said. And you'll find that this is supporting what they have said.
.

Lyric is claiming that objectively good writing exists and is defined subjectively by himself. Which is stupid.

I'm claiming objectivity good writing doesn't exist, because there's no objective standard for what is considered good writing. There's only the standard used by the majority of educated society, and going by that standard Planescape has garbage writing.
The majority of educated society(With regards to the amount of people with tertiary education, not the percentage within a country) is currently over about a hemisphere east of where you seem to think it is, what does their society say is good writing?

Ever actually read Heike Monogatari? What about Jewang ungi, Hong lou meng, or the fragmentary Epic of Gilgamesh?

Also as a secondary note, can you give examples of within the genre of video games, better writing? Both in regards to worldbuilding and regards to dialogue?

And don't give the excuse of "All Video Games have bad writing."

Next give some examples of things you find even equivelant, even within the genre, because clearly if Torments writing is being said to be disingenuously good, you could provide people who have at least done AS well as Planescape Torment?
 
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Safav Hamon

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Also as a secondary note, can you give examples of within the genre of video games, better writing? Both in regards to worldbuilding and regards to dialogue?

I already discussed this on the last page. Most games have better writing, because Planescape's is such garbage.

Specific examples I gave were Arcanum, Mask of the Betrayer, and Betrayal at Krondor. Fallout: New Vegas has the best writing in the medium, in my opinion.

Next give some examples of things you find even equivelant, even within the genre, because clearly if Torments writing is being said to be disingenuously good, you could provide people who have at least done AS well as Planescape Torment?

I can't think of anything in the genre equivalent to Planescape's writing. It has the most pretentious writing I've ever seen in a videogame. Pillars of Eternity 1 comes close.
 
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Safav Hamon

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Oh, David Cage! His writing is as pretentious as Planescape: Torment. His games are critically acclaimed too.
 

roll-a-die

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Also as a secondary note, can you give examples of within the genre of video games, better writing? Both in regards to worldbuilding and regards to dialogue?

I already discussed this on the last page. Most games have better writing, because Planescape's is such garbage.

Specific examples I gave were Arcanum, Mask of the Betrayer, and Betrayal at Krondor. Fallout: New Vegas has the best writing in the medium, in my opinion.
The best writing in the medium you say?

I'd argue it as having writing that is mediocre workman-like, and it's the implementation with the gameplay that makes the writing salvageable, but that's a case of personal tastes.

It sounds like what you are saying is not, "Torments writing is bad."

But instead, "I found Torments writing boring, and therefore everyone should consider it bad."

By the way, Mask of the Betrayer has almost all of the same "problems" you've listed for Torment. And I am wondering whether you've actually played beyond the first 3 hours of any of the games you've listed.

Also Arcanum, suffers from a general pointlessness in it's writing. It's meandering pace and wasting of words is insanely bad, especially when you get to the middle sections of the game.
 

Darth Canoli

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To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Planescape: Torment. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical psychics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also TNO's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike PS:T truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in TNO's existential catchphrase "Sounds like Oblivion. Why would anyone want that?," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Tattoo of Annah. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

On the other hand, idiots* and bigots rule the world.

"When ignorance is bliss, is it folly to be wise ?" S.

Edit : (*)
Search for middle east countries for bigots; Iran, Emirates, et ceterae; and Northern America for retards like Bush jr, Trump or even North Korea and so on ...

The 'dumbfuck' tag will be well deserved in your case~ I vote Yes.

I'd brofist this 1 million times if i could.
 
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laclongquan

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Summary of the responses in the last thread:

  • Yes the writing style is very amateurish
No. It's well done. In term of game writings, it's the best. In comparison to fantasy-genre novel writings, it's of the top 20 class.
  • Yes it tries way too hard to be deep and philosophical with little success
I dont know about "try". I know it succeed in being "deep" and "philosophical". It's not pretentious though, which is why people think it "tries". Generally, when something deep and philosophical is not pretentious, it make shallow guys think it fail, ie "try".
  • Yes it's extremely verbose and requires several editing passes to trim down redundancy
  • Yes it come across as pretentious and preachy at times
  • You are an idiot for saying any of this means it has bad writing
New Arguments

  • No, the characters aren't intelligent. They are blatant in how they subvert tropes. Their personalities have little depth beyond their basic attributes, and their psuedo-philosophical beliefs never adequately supported.
What do you mean the characters aren't intelligent? This is one point I dont think what you said mean what you intend to mean. They act in the way they are supposed to act based on the setting for their story. Take Dakkon for example. What he figured out about Zerth being an illithid-influenced at the end is wrongheaded based on Zerth's teachings in the circle of zerthimon.... until you figured out that the hidden teachings is the First Practical Reincanation putting in in order to influence Dakkon. A right-minded zerthzerai priest is not easy to control, but a priest that lost his belief in his model, his spiritual beacon, Zerth... well that's possible. Which is why many generations after the First, finally Dakkon got influenced enough to pronounce the oath Two Death As One, bind him even further onto The Nameless One's course.
  • No, the themes are not great. They are never expanded beyond a surface level, and are therefore very shallow. One of the trashiest parts of the writing is how Planescape keeps ramming its half-assed themes down your throat.
I will proudly wear the 'dumbfuck' tag if it means exposing this communities fanboyism and bad taste. Stop celebrating garbage writing in 'games' (if you can even call planescape that).
The 'dumbfuck' tag will be well deserved in your case~ I vote Yes.
 
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Safav Hamon

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Slightly less delusional, but still batshit insane. Have you even read more than 20 fantasy novels before?
 

pomenitul

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For a controversial argument to hit its mark, you must be willing to bear the burden of proof. Thus far you've done nothing but spew the same empty statements over and over again without even remotely seeking to provide a basis for your position. Start quoting – PS:T as well as those games and works of fiction you think it falls short of – and do so extensively and convincingly or GTFO like the asinine troll that you are.
 

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