My first foray into Obsidian games.

[Ion Flux]

So I finally picked up KOTOR2 and NWN2/MoTB. I started with KOTOR2 and once I got past the somewhat weak beginning and forced myself to ignore consolized interface (obviously the same as KOTOR1), I really liked it. It suffers from a lot of the same problems as KOTOR1 but the characters, especially Kreia (!), are generally a lot more interesting. I haven't made it to the end where everything falls apart yet, but I kind of know what to expect so it won't be as disappointing.

NW2 is a very different story. It seemed dumbed-down and pretty generic story/character-wise at the beginning, and then proceeded to get worse. Neeshka? Really? These are the same people who created Annah from PS:T. What the hell happened? I know this has been mentioned here before several times how generally inferior NWN2 is, but I'm really perplexed about what actually happened here. Was Obsidian just really trying hard to target the mainstream? Was NWN2 was more of a commercial success than PS:T?

(edited for grammar)

 

[Wyrmlord]

"Was NWN2 more of a commercial success than PS:T?"

We can't really compare. Obviously NWN2 sold more copies (between a million and two compared to PS:T's 400K at time of release), but PS:T was from a different time, and was obviously cheaper to make.

Commercial success involves profit margins as well, so it is possible that PS:T can be considered more successful than NWN2, since NWN2 was undoubtedly an expensive game, and needs to sell more copies to cover the cost.

That, and the number of gamers has increased, so PS:T may have had a relatively higher market share. And yet, in terms of absolute figures, PS:T is behind, so NWN2 could still be said to have been a bigger commercial success. It's difficult to say.

As for targetting the mainstream? Arguably, Torment is just as much a mainstream title, because it had high production values for it, with a reputed composer and well-established voice actors involved in the game. It was an Infinity Engine game, and was backed on the success of Baldur's Gate, and used the D&D license. Maybe compared to other mainstream titles, it was...less mainstream, but there are games much less noticed and with lower level of production than Torment.

 

[Ion Flux]

I guess you're right. It really is an apples and oranges comparison. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the diffences in NPC quality and the easiest explanation is crap = $.

 

[SimpleComplexity]

"These are the same people who created Annah from PS:T.

No they are not and if they are they have changed so they really are not.

You should skip the NWN2 OC and start to play MotB, the Codex says its much better than the OC. I have only played a little bit of MotB and i can`t agree on the "much better" part yet. I agree that there is lot less crap but there`s still some crap left.

 

[Starwars]

I also wondered about that. One explanation is that I think NWN2 had another lead guy on it for the most part of development (who is now working on Dragon Age for Bioware), I don't know if it's his story so to speak. It really "lacks teeth" as far as story and setting goes, and gameplay wise it was first and foremost badly designed. I think the rules work and the engine, while far from optimal, is definetely capable of challenging combat. But NWN2 doesn't have it.

But it seems to have done well sales wise. Well enough to warrant two expansions so far, continued patching support and the creation of the adventure module program (though I wonder how sales for that will be with the horrible way Atari has treated it).
I assume it's also a game that keeps on selling fairly decently since it's still "active".

I would definetely assume that NWN2 has sold more than PS:T, but like Wyrmlord pointed out, it's likely more money went into its production as well.

 

[Ion Flux]

"These are the same people who created Annah from PS:T.

No they are not and if they are they have changed so they really are not.

From mobygames.com:

Planescape: Torment

Lead Designer: Chris Avellone

NWN2

Creative Director: Chris Avellone

Avellone was the creative force behind PS:T, so again, this is what I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around.

 

[SimpleComplexity]

I don`t see any big difficulty there. Have ever been a fan of a music band and thought they make the best albums and then suddenly these same people started to suck at making music? It happens quite often, i guess the same applies to the game industry. Otherwise i don`t have any real explanation for that.

 

[butsomuch]

You don't know what "Creative Director at Obsidian" means. It means the guy who oversees Obsidian's all projects. His role in a single project changes from senior designer to lead designer or creative lead or additional design, etc..

MCA's LinkedIn profile

...Co-founder and Creative Director of Obsidian Entertainment, which is a hell of an awesome thing. I didn't realize there were jobs like this, and I'm upset at my high school career counselor about this...

...RPG titles I've worked on include:

Fallout 2 (Level Designer)
Planescape: Torment (Lead Designer)
Icewind Dale 1 (Level Designer)
Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter (Level Designer)
Icewind Dale 2 (Level Designer)
Dark Alliance 1 (Senior Designer)
Baldur's Gate 3 (cancelled, Senior Designer)
Fallout 3 (cancelled, Co-Lead Designer)
Champions of Norrath (Level Designer and Script Doctor)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (Lead Designer)
Neverwinter Nights 2 (Senior Designer)
Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (Senior Designer)
Aliens (Creative Lead Designer)
Alpha Protocol (Lead Designer)...

He has always been the creative director from KotOR2 to Aliens RPG, Alpha Protocol and NWN2: SoZ. He always will be unless he leaves the company.

 

[Korgan]

Avellone's games: PST - KOTOR2 - MoTB. NWN2's OC simply doesn't cut it. Maybe he wasn't given free rein, maybe he had a lot of shitty ideas - either way it's average. Stick with those three.

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

Avellone's games: PST - KOTOR2

That's it, the end.

 

[Ion Flux]

You don't know what "Creative Director at Obsidian" means. It means the guy who oversees Obsidian's all projects. His role in a single project changes from senior designer to lead designer or creative lead or additional design, etc..

...

He has always been the creative director from KotOR2 to Aliens RPG, Alpha Protocol and NWN2: SoZ. He always will be unless he leaves the company.

This obviously makes sense, but you'd think as "Creative Director" he might have the power to say something like, "Geez, that Neeshka character needs a little work." Then again, maybe he did. Maybe she was actually worse at one point.

 

[Relayer71]

Neeshka? Really? "

I actually liked her. Yes, she's a whiny little bitch but that's what I liked and the bickering between her and Kelgar was hilarious. She just had a lot of personality as did other NWN2 characters which is more than I can say for ANY character in NWN 1.

Same with the KOTORs - the KOTOR2 characters were more interesting than those in KOTOR and had a bit more depth and dimension.

Chalk it up to better writing (and perhaps voice acting).

 

[Lumpy]

Actually, MCA wrote NWN2's companions as far as I know. He made up for it with Gann and Kaelyn in MotB - make sure you take them on the first playthrough, as they're the most interesting.
WTF are you doing playing the OC anyway? MotB is way better - equivalent in quality to PS:T in my opinion.

 

[Relayer71]

As for comparing PS:T and NWN2: these games are nearly 10 years apart. Just like with recording artists, you just can't keep making the same album over and over again.

Artists grow and/or change over time and their work usually reflects (to some degree) whatever influences them. For better or worse.

Did we want a carbon copy of Annah? No.

And back to the recording artist comparisons: for one thing, PS:T is like that masterpiece album that artists rarely get to repeat in their careers. SUre, they may make some very good albums after but they never reach that height again.

 

[Korgan]

Avellone's games: PST - KOTOR2

That's it, the end.

Wut? What's wrong with MoTB's story and design? I loved them, especially how the idea of the Wall challenges conventional D&D morality. I haven't yet got to the end, but a guide says that you have to kill a guy with an Amulet of Pure Good if you choose to attack the city and save the innocent souls there. How awesome is that?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Avellone's games: PST - KOTOR2

That's it, the end.

Wut? What's wrong with MoTB's story and design? I loved them, especially how the idea of the Wall challenges conventional D&D morality. I haven't yet got to the end, but a guide says that you have to kill a guy with an Amulet of Pure Good if you choose to attack the city and save the innocent souls there. How awesome is that?

Avellone only wrote Gann and, IIRC, Okku for that game. MotB was more of a collaboration of many writers overall.

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

MotB is Ziets' baby, first and foremost.

 

[Xard]

So I finally picked up KOTOR2 and NWN2/MoTB. I started with KOTOR2 and once I got past the somewhat weak beginning and forced myself to ignore consolized interface (obviously the same as KOTOR1), I really liked it. It suffers from a lot of the same problems as KOTOR1 but the characters, especially Kreia (!), are generally a lot more interesting. I haven't made it to end where everything falls apart yet, but I kind of know what to expect so it won't be as disappointing.

Kotor 2 is fantastic game and so far only one to reach some of PS:T's heights when it comes to writing(Bloodlines did too regularly tbh). There's so much in all your cast members you can't possibly find all out in first playthrough. After many subsequent playthroughs I'd put Kreia above every other game character I've encountered and Handmaiden, Atris, Hk-47 (in K2, not in K1), Goto and Atton comfortably sit along with Annah, Morte and co. Though Nordom, Morte and Annah are still Best Party Members ever. (plus Kaelyn)

There's only one bad character and that's Discipline. Blergh

KotOR 2 was ambitious project and failures in its gameplay can be directly attributed to A) too much ambition and not enough time and designers (well, still fared better than Troika did) and B) inherent flaws of K1

I'd say with rebalance etc. mods K2 combat is quite enjoyable, not in small part due to excellent animations for which I forgive much.

Anyway, OE tried to fix many flaws they saw in K1's gameplay, namely it's dumbed downess. There was too few abilities, items etc. customization in original so they made humongous amount of new force powers, feats, items etc. Interface was smoothed out and vastly improved (it was pain to go back to K1 after K2) and all party members was ment to be useful compared to K1 in which only jedis mattered. This last part is reason for many sections where you control NPC's which annoy some people to no end.

But resource limits made it impossible to balance the game properly and many improvements were done only halfway which didn't serve the game at all. Fighting became utterly broken with overpowered abilities and items, "stances" didn't work and enemies were idiotic.

But the inherinent K1 flaws were still the biggest reasons for failures of gameplay. Limited party hurt tactical possibilities, combat was wayy too easy etc.


I still love K2 for all else in the game though. And unlike - say - Arcanum gameplay is smooth enough for me to forgive the atrocious combat.

K2 had a lot potential. Too bad most of it was wasted.

NW2 is a very different story. It seemed dumbed-down and pretty generic story/character-wise at the beginning, and then proceeded to get worse.

Ferret Baudoin

Neeshka? Really? These are the same people who created Annah from PS:T. What the hell happened?

Ferret Baudoin

I know this has been mentioned here before several times how generally inferior NWN2 is, but I'm really perplexed about what actually happened here.

Ferret Baudoin

Was Obsidian just really trying hard to target the mainstream?

All BIS/OE game have tried to target some ambigious thing called "mainstream"

Also, Ferret Baudoin

Was NWN2 was more of a commercial success than PS:T?

NWN2 was about as big hit it could be. It sold shitloads - enough to warrant two exp packs and if SoZ'll do well propably third.

Avellone's games: PST - KOTOR2

That's it, the end.

Wut? What's wrong with MoTB's story and design? I loved them, especially how the idea of the Wall challenges conventional D&D morality. I haven't yet got to the end, but a guide says that you have to kill a guy with an Amulet of Pure Good if you choose to attack the city and save the innocent souls there. How awesome is that?

Avellone only wrote Gann and, IIRC, Okku for that game. MotB was more of a collaboration of many writers overall.

Avellone wrote Gann and Kaelyn (my all-time favourite party NPC minus Morte)

 

[Ion Flux]

WTF are you doing playing the OC anyway? MotB is way better - equivalent in quality to PS:T in my opinion.

I have a hard time just taking people's word on things, even the Codex Hivemind (tm). I'm sure you guys are all correct and everything, but if I don't play it myself, I'll never know for sure.

 

[Lumpy]

Avellone's games: PST - KOTOR2

That's it, the end.

Wut? What's wrong with MoTB's story and design? I loved them, especially how the idea of the Wall challenges conventional D&D morality. I haven't yet got to the end, but a guide says that you have to kill a guy with an Amulet of Pure Good if you choose to attack the city and save the innocent souls there. How awesome is that?

Yup. And if you choose to defend the city, you have to kill about a dozen of Good celestials.

 

[fastpunk]

Kaelyn's such an avellonian character. I thought people would catch on to that.

 

[Ion Flux]

Ferret Baudoin is the root of all evil.

Okay. What other stuff did he work on?

 

[Zomg]

Lead designer of lung cancer

 

[Xard]

Ferret Baudoin is the root of all evil.

Okay. What other stuff did he work on?

Was designer on Kotor 2 and Mechwarrios + some stuff before getting position of Lead Designer on NWN2

Anyway, I've come to view Ferret Baudoin as Todd Howard of OE.

NWN2 failed because of A) just like K2 due to overambition (check out that Sawyer codex interview and you know what I mean) and wanting to get too much shit in and B) bunch of fucking horrible design decisions.


A is common fault to OE which plagued both titles up to MotB (though SoZ, Aliens RPG and AP should all be awesome <3 ), but I put blame on B mostly to Ferret Baudoin because he was lead designer.


He came up with the basic story (and Avellone then gave meat around the bones)

He came up with ridiculous linearity

He came up with forced party members

He came up with idea of transferring Kotors "no-death lol" system over to NWN franchise

He also fucking sucked at lead designing and leading huge project (see Sawyer's interview and the part concerning state of NWN2 when he came in) succesfully

He had to be replaced (and left to Bio, thank goodness) and left mess of a game for J.E to clean up to proper title


I can't help but wonder how awesome NWN2 could've been if J.E had been lead from the start


Then again I think codexians are way too hard on OC, it's not that bad.

 

[Kaiserin]

I'm not certain how 'the wall' challenges conventional D&D morality when it's been a part of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting for over a decade. The cosmology that most of the settings provide is actually very interesting, the issue is that you have small minded and large assed comic book nerds applying it.