Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Grunker]

I agree with your overall sentiment but as far as implementation goes this game like most other seems to reward evil more mechanics wise - the two craftsmen being one example.

Evils get a lot of cool stuff, other alignments get a lot of cool stuff as well, and Goods get biggest chunk of plot stuff but that would be spoilers.

Evils get a lot less XP for one if you select CE often for example.

That last bit is true I suppose

 

[Grunker]

More dumb questions: do magic quivers work with crossbows?

 

[Wolfe]

Well.. I've finished it. Steam says 173 hours, in-game says 135, I know I've started playing on the 19th of January. As I was going through the ending slides it hit me just how many things I've done, choices I've made, events I've gone through. After all, the adventure took place over 4 years and when a companion's story ends with them settling down and having a child that the PC will be the patron of, I can see that happening before my eyes, because that companion had been at my PC's side for hundreds of days and that created a real bond.

I really liked that the companions were strongly integrated into the main storyline and C&C was done very well, not only in their quests but in the kingdom as well. I lost two of them and actually felt sad because both had a vital role in my party and were quite likeable. I thought the best out of all were Jubilost and Nok-Nok. I will remember them fondly.

Chapter 7 was quite fine after the shock of the previous chapter, I stopped having issues with the Wild Hunt. Even the curse wasn't a problem, you get rid of it fairly easy. I managed to get the romance ending but not the true ending, if you want that, research those damned curses! Nyrissa's story was quite bittersweet, I liked her character but I'll need to do some more thinking on it to fully appreciate it.

A friend of mine keeps complaining about the writing and says that it's generic and falls flat on its face. I didn't have any expectations coming in and I was pleasantly surprised. I suppose it's just consistently good. There are some high points when it comes to character arcs but they don't reach the greatness of the classics. That's fine. At the same time companions don't flaunt their sexuality in front of you like the ones in PoE or Bioware games do and characters aren't walking thesauruses. I see Kingmaker as a series of captivating classic D&D adventures and tropes, fighting against trolls, liches, curses, etc, and in my opinion the writing managed to convey exactly that and made me feel at home. It felt like I was on an adventure and I really liked its pacing, the way it was split into chapters and especially the fact that it took place during such a long period!

In terms of gameplay, it's addictive. I've probably spent 20 hours building, leveling and gearing up characters. It's one of the best systems I've seen and this is reflected in the fact that I was always swapping companions around because each one offered something fun in terms of abilities. This is the reason I might replay bits of it and even soon, to try out a custom companion party and see what I've missed out on. The game may be hard but when you actually learn its rules and systems and build your PC into a demigod by the end of the game, now that's satisfaction.

I wish the map and enemy variety were better, as well as distribution of certain weapon types throughout the game. Some weapons are simply missing from the mid-game. I've visited the same 2-3 maps at least a dozen times. Those are some real issues but I wouldn't call them dealbreakers.

It's clearly such an ambitious game, it may be the longest CRPG out there? There was always some content to do with the exception of chapter 6, which was spent finishing building the kingdom.

I'm so glad I've waited 4 months before diving in. I could count the number of bugs I've noticed on the fingers of my hands (RIP, Amiri) and loading screens were not an issue. Once the Owlcats finish dealing with bugs, I hope they have a good look at redesigning chapter 6. For the first two days I spent there I thought it may ultimately spoil my impression of the game. Fortunately, it did not.

 

[Jarpie]

Craftsmen are wildly inconsistent lol. Sometimes they give you some shitty +1 weapon, sometimes they give you stuff like this, which isn't even a mastercraft

Spoiler

Chapter 2 got 'Opressor': +4 (most of my weapons are +2, I got a single +3) Bastard Sword that grants +6 enhancement bonus to Charisma and +2 Luck bonus on Will saves. Not only does it provide Valerie with a completely insane Cha boost for her level, it frees up her helmet slot too O_o

That'd be a killer for my eldritch scion.

 

[Incendax]

Have Owlcat implemented that weakness?

Someone reported that Mandragora do lose their Fast Healing and become Slowed if you fight them at night, but this does not apply to the ones in HATEOT for obvious reasons.

Is there a way

Spoiler

To keep a craftsman in Varrask's quest without being chaotic evil? Or is that quest literally a choice between chaotic evil and items or anything else and nothing?

Spoiler

If you attack the woman in the Secluded Lodge before asking her ANY questions, it does not count as an evil action. You essentially trust Varrask's story and treat her like a bandit.

 

[Thonius]

Well.. I've finished it. Steam says 173 hours, in-game says 135, I know I've started playing on the 19th of January. As I was going through the ending slides it hit me just how many things I've done, choices I've made, events I've gone through. After all, the adventure took place over 4 years and when a companion's story ends with them settling down and having a child that the PC will be the patron of, I can see that happening before my eyes, because that companion had been at my PC's side for hundreds of days and that created a real bond.

I really liked that the companions were strongly integrated into the main storyline and C&C was done very well, not only in their quests but in the kingdom as well. I lost two of them and actually felt sad because both had a vital role in my party and were quite likeable. I thought the best out of all were Jubilost and Nok-Nok. I will remember them fondly.

Chapter 7 was quite fine after the shock of the previous chapter, I stopped having issues with the Wild Hunt. Even the curse wasn't a problem, you get rid of it fairly easy. I managed to get the romance ending but not the true ending, if you want that, research those damned curses! Nyrissa's story was quite bittersweet, I liked her character but I'll need to do some more thinking on it to fully appreciate it.

A friend of mine keeps complaining about the writing and says that it's generic and falls flat on its face. I didn't have any expectations coming in and I was pleasantly surprised. I suppose it's just consistently good. There are some high points when it comes to character arcs but they don't reach the greatness of the classics. That's fine. At the same time companions don't flaunt their sexuality in front of you like the ones in PoE or Bioware games do and characters aren't walking thesauruses. I see Kingmaker as a series of captivating classic D&D adventures and tropes, fighting against trolls, liches, curses, etc, and in my opinion the writing managed to convey exactly that and made me feel at home. It felt like I was on an adventure and I really liked its pacing, the way it was split into chapters and especially the fact that it took place during such a long period!

In terms of gameplay, it's addictive. I've probably spent 20 hours building, leveling and gearing up characters. It's one of the best systems I've seen and this is reflected in the fact that I was always swapping companions around because each one offered something fun in terms of abilities. This is the reason I might replay bits of it and even soon, to try out a custom companion party and see what I've missed out on. The game may be hard but when you actually learn its rules and systems and build your PC into a demigod by the end of the game, now that's satisfaction.

I wish the map and enemy variety were better, as well as distribution of certain weapon types throughout the game. Some weapons are simply missing from the mid-game. I've visited the same 2-3 maps at least a dozen times. Those are some real issues but I wouldn't call them dealbreakers.

It's clearly such an ambitious game, it may be the longest CRPG out there? There was always some content to do with the exception of chapter 6, which was spent finishing building the kingdom.

I'm so glad I've waited 4 months before diving in. I could count the number of bugs I've noticed on the fingers of my hands (RIP, Amiri) and loading screens were not an issue. Once the Owlcats finish dealing with bugs, I hope they have a good look at redesigning chapter 6. For the first two days I spent there I thought it may ultimately spoil my impression of the game. Fortunately, it did not.

Now go to steam a write a review. And maybe just maybe we will get Pathfinder 2...

 

[Jarpie]

Do you guys remember or can you check what level you were while doing the Varnhold Vanishing stuff? I'm just doing the quests for barbarians and hit the level 12, feels like it's a bit too high.

 

[Haplo]

They're in multiple parts and unlock as you progress through the game. But honestly they don't do much, they're more for a super-achivo/ending slide for which you need to upgrade every region. First you need to focus on getting stats to X and make your advisors as good at shooting down bad cards as you can (and unlock extra advisors), which would also bring you more artisan items.

Someone data mined that some region upgrades unlock artisan item tiers (there are 6 tiers and each artisan has specific conditions to unlock them).
Might explain why Sahiya seems to bring better stuff sooner - I tend to do Bronzeshield fortress restoration early.

 

[Haplo]

Do you guys remember or can you check what level you were while doing the Varnhold Vanishing stuff? I'm just doing the quests for barbarians and hit the level 12, feels like it's a bit too high.

Hit level 13 near the end of VV, so that sounds about right.

Of course I did gain almost a full level after killing the Lonely Barrow lich.

 

[Wolfe]

I forgot to mention a couple of things.

The game does atmosphere pretty well, especially in dungeons and the First World. I was always on edge, slowly peeking at the edge of the fog to see what awaits.

I loved Vancian casting and the resting mechanic. They make spells feel valuable and force the player to manage them well as resources. Battles where you're barely scraping by with the last of your abilities are the best and then you feel like you've earned your rest. But even that has to be properly managed in order to respect the (sensible) quest time limits. I've never had an issue with those.

The AI is garbage, unfortunately. For 90% of the game I've played on Hard difficulty and I'm tired of games where all that does is pad the enemy stats. The encounter design isn't great to start with, I can't say there were many memorable fights with interesting setpieces and positioning. The AI is so bad that when an enemy decides to cast a spell on an out-of-range party member, they will chase them to the ends of the earth in order to deliver that spell. Yes, that is how Vordakai chased Linzi to the entrance of the second level of his tomb, meanwhile my melees were hammering him down. Enemy melee units stick like glue to the first target they set their eyes upon, which is why having a tank is essential..

 

[ArchAngel]

The AI is garbage, unfortunately. For 90% of the game I've played on Hard difficulty and I'm tired of games where all that does is pad the enemy stats. The encounter design isn't great to start with, I can't say there were many memorable fights with interesting setpieces and positioning. The AI is so bad that when an enemy decides to cast a spell on an out-of-range party member, they will chase them to the ends of the earth in order to deliver that spell. Yes, that is how Vordakai chased Linzi to the entrance of the second level of his tomb, meanwhile my melees were hammering him down. Enemy melee units stick like glue to the first target they set their eyes upon, which is why having a tank is essential..

I have been playing my solo druid for last few days and often enemies decide to go around my animal tank and attack my druid in the back..

 

[Grunker]

How do you actually

Spoiler

use the active of Gear's Rule? When I equip I don't get a new active on the power bar?

 

[Grunker]

The AI is garbage, unfortunately. For 90% of the game I've played on Hard difficulty and I'm tired of games where all that does is pad the enemy stats. The encounter design isn't great to start with, I can't say there were many memorable fights with interesting setpieces and positioning. The AI is so bad that when an enemy decides to cast a spell on an out-of-range party member, they will chase them to the ends of the earth in order to deliver that spell. Yes, that is how Vordakai chased Linzi to the entrance of the second level of his tomb, meanwhile my melees were hammering him down. Enemy melee units stick like glue to the first target they set their eyes upon, which is why having a tank is essential..

I have been playing my solo druid for last few days and often enemies decide to go around my animal tank and attack my druid in the back..

I have yet to encounter a single enemy that voluntarily takes attack of opportunities even though it would be highly beneficial for them, and I haven't met any that use Mobility either. UNLESS they as stated target them with a spell or attack and I get out of range.

It's more or less the only reason Valerie as a full tank does anything, excluding Dazzling Display + Thug which is nutters.

 

[ArchAngel]

The AI is garbage, unfortunately. For 90% of the game I've played on Hard difficulty and I'm tired of games where all that does is pad the enemy stats. The encounter design isn't great to start with, I can't say there were many memorable fights with interesting setpieces and positioning. The AI is so bad that when an enemy decides to cast a spell on an out-of-range party member, they will chase them to the ends of the earth in order to deliver that spell. Yes, that is how Vordakai chased Linzi to the entrance of the second level of his tomb, meanwhile my melees were hammering him down. Enemy melee units stick like glue to the first target they set their eyes upon, which is why having a tank is essential..

I have been playing my solo druid for last few days and often enemies decide to go around my animal tank and attack my druid in the back..

I have yet to encounter a single enemy that voluntarily takes attack of opportunities even though it would be highly beneficial for them, and I haven't met any that use Mobility either. UNLESS they as stated target them with a spell or attack and I get out of range.

It's more or less the only reason Valerie as a full tank does anything, excluding Dazzling Display + Thug which is nutters.

Just moving around targets does not cause AoO just like how it does not in PnP (well not when you are moving 5 foot steps). My Druid stands behind in Huge Air Elemental forms and attacks with reach. Enemies then move past the pet and stand between the pet and my Druid.

 

[Grunker]

How is that relevant to the point being made by Wolf? The point is that if you put Valerie in contact with someone that's it: they're bound harder than even an engaged enemy in PoE. In a full party this effectively means (at least as far as I'm currently) that the only encounters that pressure your back line are archers or having enemies spawn directly on top of them (as will often happen with spiders). Besides that it's entirely correct that tanks in this game have supertaunt.

For all the game's strengths, AI certainly isn't one of them. An SCS treatment would be sick.

 

[Grunker]

It's actually even worse, because enemies can't even appraise the AC of people who melee engage them either. So if you put Valerie on them first, they're going to attack her, even if 1 second later AC15 Amiri stands besides them. Thus you get enemies missing constantly against Valerie who doesn't do much damage herself, yet ignoring Amiri even though she's in range and would crumble after one round of full attacks.

EDIT: For the same reason, my default formation is:

---.---
-------
--.-.--
.--.--.

Since as long as the enemies see my frontliner first, the rest of my crew can most often do whatever the hell they want.

 

[ArchAngel]

How is that relevant to the point being made by Wolf? The point is that if you put Valerie in contact with someone that's it: they're bound harder than even an engaged enemy in PoE. In a full party this effectively means (at least as far as I'm currently) that the only encounters that pressure your back line are archers or having enemies spawn directly on top of them (as will often happen with spiders). Besides that it's entirely correct that tanks in this game have supertaunt.

For all the game's strengths, AI certainly isn't one of them. An SCS treatment would be sick.

I just proved that AI does change targets. We just don't know the exact conditions.

 

[Wolfe]

Well, I did come across some enemies which re-targeted sometimes. Ferocious Devourers (I think they're called), Ghostly Guards and even Wild Hunt scouts. My criticism applies for maybe 95% of enemies.

Off-topic question, what are the CRPGs with the best encounter design?

 

[Grunker]

How is that relevant to the point being made by Wolf? The point is that if you put Valerie in contact with someone that's it: they're bound harder than even an engaged enemy in PoE. In a full party this effectively means (at least as far as I'm currently) that the only encounters that pressure your back line are archers or having enemies spawn directly on top of them (as will often happen with spiders). Besides that it's entirely correct that tanks in this game have supertaunt.

For all the game's strengths, AI certainly isn't one of them. An SCS treatment would be sick.

I just proved that AI does change targets. We just don't know the exact conditions.

Oh yes your example of an enemy who retargets from an animal companion to the caster totally dismissed the very valid criticism that in most scenarios the AI doesn't even do simple retargeting from one character to another even though both are standing on top of them and it would would be vastly superior because one has AC95 and one has AC10.

Well, I did come across some enemies which re-targeted sometimes. Ferocious Devourers (I think they're called), Ghostly Guards and even Wild Hunt scouts. My criticism applies for maybe 95% of enemies.

Off-topic question, what are the CRPGs with the best encounter design?

Are we talking in general (average quality of encounter design throughout) or highest high notes?

For me White March wins in both categories but BG2, IWD, some GoldBox games, ToEE, Wiz8 and KotC all have a lot of high notes.

EDIT: SCS of course is king of kings

 

[razvedchiki]

sword coast strategems for kingmaker when?

 

[Daidre]

It's actually even worse, because enemies can't even appraise the AC of people who melee engage them either. So if you put Valerie on them first, they're going to attack her, even if 1 second later AC15 Amiri stands besides them. Thus you get enemies missing constantly against Valerie who doesn't do much damage herself, yet ignoring Amiri even though she's in range and would crumble after one round of full attacks.

I do not know if it is difficulty dependant but enemy melee definitely change targets after ~3 rounds of missing. They are not very smart about it and could change between 2 high-AC characters back and forth but with Valerie tanking I notice this behavior quite often.
Actually, in PoE 1&2 target switch was 100% present only on higher difficulties.

 

[Grunker]

It's actually even worse, because enemies can't even appraise the AC of people who melee engage them either. So if you put Valerie on them first, they're going to attack her, even if 1 second later AC15 Amiri stands besides them. Thus you get enemies missing constantly against Valerie who doesn't do much damage herself, yet ignoring Amiri even though she's in range and would crumble after one round of full attacks.

I do not know if it is difficulty dependant but enemy melee definitely change targets after ~3 rounds of missing. They are not very smart about it and could change between 2 high-AC characters back and forth but with Valerie tanking I notice this behavior quite often.

I'm playing on challenging (well, challenging+) and looking over the difficulty settings, none of them mention AI. If there was an isolated AI setting I definetely would have maxed it. What difficulty are you playing on? Because I have very rarely seen enemies switch from Valerie.

 

[Daidre]

I usually playing ch1 on Hard and everything after on Unfair.

 

[Grunker]

I believe there is even a tip mentionining something along the lines of "make sure your tank initiates combat first, to protect your other characters!" or something to that effect.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Just press the awesome button.

After getting the metakinesis upgrade at lvl19 (-1 burn on maximized) maximized, empowered composite magma/mud deadly earth blasts cost no burn. None.