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Incline What new iso cRPGs should be like

Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
I've been a lot more into open-world and action type RPGs lately, because among other reasons, they have just been a lot better than traditional tactical/map-based cRPGs recently. That will probably not change with the news of Larian making BG3. So I've been thinking today about what I would like to see from new isometric cRPGs that they aren't doing right now. Below is the stuff that I think is most obvious that would help this subgenre move forward:

- A massive world with many different climatic regions: mountains, deserts, tundras, jungles, plains, woods, steppes, etc. Ideally, these wouldn't just be cosmetic, but have real effects on your character/party, and require specific preparations to survive in them. In cold climate your party might need warm clothing over their armor, in a desert, they might need to take off heavy armor and maybe put on light reflective clothing. In a jungle, they might need insect repellent, in the mountains, special climbing equipment.

- Your party would have to carry food and water and other necessities with them (for example, ropes, crowbars/levers, spyglasses, medical supplies, hunting equipment, etc), and regularly refill those resources in natural, non-abstract ways. So refill food by shopping at food merchants, or hunting yourself with your party in your travels, refill water by stopping at rivers and doing it, and so on. Animals would have some simple AI causing them to run away at your party's approach, so the hunters would have to be skilled at stealth/traps/etc.

- This one is going to be controversial, and it's more experimental in nature, but I think it would be a good idea to remove mundane spell casting from the game. No more legions of casters running around and performing magic like breathing. This is what differentiates good fantasy (e.g. Lord of the Rings, ASOIAF, etc) from the cheap video game fantasy. In good fantasy, magic is a fantastical and rare force, and witnessing it is an experience in and of itself. In a typical RPG, magic is just another, dumber flavor of combat. I think it's ok to have a magician class in the game, but its role would be fairly different. It would be a special support class, performing rare and important magical rituals for non-combat related purposes.

- Similar to the point above, I think it's time to differentiate between combat and non-combat roles in the party. I am so sick and tired of every class being balanced around combat, which creates terrible and boring combat systems. Wizards, who are either just archers with special effects, or if they spec into cc, always break the balance. Rogues/assassins who "magically" utilize the most boring mechanics (e.g. backstab, vanish), and yet can one-shot enemies. Healers who are impossible to kill, etc. I don't think that you can create a truly deep and interesting combat system as long as you are trying to balance all these completely different things against each other (regular melee/ranged combat, magic, subterfuge, healing, etc).

So my approach would be different. I would keep the combat close to real life medieval stuff (melee fighting, archery/crossbows, slashing, thrusting, parrying, blocking, dodging, different types of movements, feints, defenses, etc). This would be much easier to expand into a lot of deep actions and interactions, and then you could have your specialized combatants be a part of your party, but then other roles would be there for non-combat stuff, and engage in combat as secondary, weaker participants. So you might have a thief who is there to scout, spot and disarm traps, steal things, and get to hard to reach places. This would be an essential role for the party's success, but in combat, he would just be an amateur in the back. The hunter is needed to provide the party with food, and can also double as an archer in combat. The healer/medic is needed to take care of various diseases/injuries in between combat, and also heal using conventional methods after fights, but again, they would not contribute much during combat. So the challenge would be to put together a party that can succeed both in combat and outside of it.

- Putting all the points above together, traveling between various cities/regions would be an adventure in itself. When you have finished questing around a particular city/settlement, and are ready to travel to the next one, you would have to make sure your party is staffed by the right people to get it through all the challenges on the way, that it's also equipped with everything that it needs to make it. You would have to consult the map of the world/continent to plan out your trip. For example, if you see mountains in the way, make sure at least one party member is skilled in climbing, that you have enough ropes and climbing steaks, and so on. Also, you would need to plan out your route in such a way as to always be close to rivers and waterways, so you can refill your dwindling water supply. When camping to rest, you would need to assign guards in shifts, and when fast forwarding, there would be a random chance that you get attacked by the locals, in which case, your guards would alert you, and a battle would commence. Different stats could influence this. Imagine how cool it would be to finally make it to the destination city, probably in tatters, with most of your supplies gone, and party injured and filthy.

- As far as the story direction, it would be great to stay away from whiny psedo-dramatic crap as in Pillars of Eternity and Baldur's Gate 2, but also away from constant humor as in Larian games. Just some realistic sounding plot with a lot of intrigue, mystery, and ideally, political tie-ins. Think stories more like Baldur's Gate 1, Age of Decadence, or the Witcher series. Something bad is happening, nobody knows exactly what, it's kinda scary, and you are sent to investigate/correct, but you are a bunch of nobodies, everyone treats you like shit until you start achieving stuff, and even then, everyone still mostly treats you like shit. Similarly to the Witcher series, I would also keep it relatively low-fantasy. Mostly human or other humanoid settlements, with monsters and other creatures being rarer and living on the outskirts of society. I think this helps to keep things more mature.

- For maps, I would prefer BG1's contiguous adjacent maps to the hub based structure of BG2, or the point of interest structure of NWN2/Kangmaker. But ideally make them even larger, say each map is 4 times the size of BG1's maps, so you can travel around it for a while, seeing different things. And the next map will continue with the same terrain as the previous one, until you see it change. But unlike BG1, a lot more interaction possible with the world. Have rope and climber? Climb that mountain. Or descend into well. Cut down tree to create a makeshift bridge. Maybe if you have a skilled carpenter in the party, put up a palisade quickly for your camp in a dangerous area, to help with defense. Hunt animals for meat (using stealth), then cook it and eat it to survive. Get water from streams. Cut branches into arrows. Climb a tall tree near a camp to get more time to respond to night attacks. If have the skills, maybe cut down wood and build a boat to sail downstream quicker. And a ton of other things.

- Intelligent puzzles. None of that find 4 mcguffins, put them together, activate lever bullshit. Maybe dungeons would have puzzles based on local lore. So it would help to have a scholar party member, who would have reading skill, and go through the manuscripts in the local library. Or also talk to the local intelligentsia. Or just puzzles based on logic and figuring stuff out, like in Ultima Underworld. I would make these optional though, for some optional extra loot, because some people might hate this sort of thing.
 

vortex

Fabulous Optimist
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
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Temple of Alvilmelkedic
I would like to see psionic class/skill tree.

- This one is going to be controversial, and it's more experimental in nature, but I think it would be a good idea to remove mundane spell casting from the game. No more legions of casters running around and performing magic like breathing. This is what differentiates good fantasy (e.g. Lord of the Rings, ASOIAF, etc) from the cheap video game fantasy. In good fantasy, magic is a fantastical and rare force, and witnessing it is an experience in and of itself. In a typical RPG, magic is just another, dumber flavor of combat. I think it's ok to have a magician class in the game, but its role would be fairly different. It would be a special support class, performing rare and important magical rituals for non-combat related purposes.

This is controversial. Some would love to play as wizard, priest etc. for combat purposes.


And the question is if BG3 will be TB, can Vancian system apply there ?
 
Last edited:

TheGrand547

Novice
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
1
Realism does not equal fun, it's an unpleasant trend that needs to die.
Completely agree, realism has never made a game better. Realism contextualized within the context of game mechanics can be fun, but on its own realism makes things frustrating and uninteresting.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Not really.

You’re extrapolating one comment to everything. Stuff like hunger stats has been done in RoA and the usual takeaway is that it’s tedious.

Your comment is an exaggeration of what Gregz was trying to say.

Also, you’re mother is half-elf which makes you part elf.


Come at me bro.
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
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Granbretan
If a system is tedious then improve it, if you want less tedium and more fun then say that, if you find management and preparation aspects unenjoyable that has nothing to do with the verisimillitude of a setting.

There's no such thing as a half Elf, Elves are a different species so we can't breed with them. Sicko.
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
7,523
I thought food/hunger was done perfectly well in Mount & Blade. You have to periodically resupply, and then people automatically consume your food over time. You can buy the food or raid enemy villages. You can buy lots at a time, but some of it will rot, and you have limited inventory space. It's simple, makes sense, and adds a layer of strategy.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
So basically you want Realms of Arkania.

Minus the shitty lego-brick-cities, with a significantly more fun combat system, minus the mundane magic and everything else I talked about above, and with the preparation/world interaction elements being much more interactive and fun (as opposed to highly abstract skill check rolls). Yes, something like that.
 

RaptorRex888

Learned
Joined
May 13, 2019
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259
Location
Vatican City
I agree with a lot of your points except food and survival elements, fuck off with that shit. There's hundreds of pages worth of that tedious garbage on Steam.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,787
Yeah, if you do food, you either do it right and end up with a survival game, or you do it superfluous like in the Eye of the Beholder games where you have a spell to create food, and its just pointless, minor busy work that doesn't add to the game. Can't think of any RPG where I ever enjoyed food or drink requirements
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Food and drinks has been done with great effect at Fallout New Vegas.

Mind you, balance the recipe effects and scarcity of materials is a stone cold bitch and going to need several updates just to fine-tune it.
 

Syme

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
325
I've played Realms of Arkania as well as modded Fallout, Skyrim, and JA2 with food systems enabled. After about 2 hours, when you're no longer starved for cash, all those systems are reduced to "reserve X amount of inventory space for the remainder of the game". There's no real challenge, there's just less bag space.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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Yeah, if you do food, you either do it right and end up with a survival game, or you do it superfluous like in the Eye of the Beholder games where you have a spell to create food, and its just pointless, minor busy work that doesn't add to the game. Can't think of any RPG where I ever enjoyed food or drink requirements
Dungeon Master in 1987 had separate food and water requirements, as well as stamina management and lighting with realistic darkness, all of which were conducive to dungeon exploration. The previous year, The Faery Tale Adventure also featured food requirements, as well as sleep requirements, and had a day/night cycle with realistic darkness. It's shameful that three decades later, almost no CRPGs implement these well.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,787
Yeah, if you do food, you either do it right and end up with a survival game, or you do it superfluous like in the Eye of the Beholder games where you have a spell to create food, and its just pointless, minor busy work that doesn't add to the game. Can't think of any RPG where I ever enjoyed food or drink requirements
Dungeon Master in 1987 had separate food and water requirements, as well as stamina management and lighting with realistic darkness, all of which were conducive to dungeon exploration. The previous year, The Faery Tale Adventure also featured food requirements, as well as sleep requirements, and had a day/night cycle with realistic darkness. It's shameful that three decades later, almost no CRPGs implement these well.

The lighting was well done and I don't remember any modern game that used it as well, at most we get something streamlined like what was there in Legend of Grimrock, but the food/water stuff I found pointless busy work like in most RT blobbers. Never played FTA and from what I've seen of it, there's no good reason to play it
 

Ranarama

Learned
Joined
Dec 7, 2016
Messages
604
Realism does not equal fun, it's an unpleasant trend that needs to die.

Indeed there should be no feature in games that bears any relation to reality at all, no swords, armour, guns, humans, planets, physics or anything made or thought of on earth.

Exactly. Arguments against previous comments don't need to interpret the replied to comment in a reasonable fashion. Furthermore, I agree with you that you're a massive fucking idiot.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
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Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,013
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So basically you want Realms of Arkania.

Minus the shitty lego-brick-cities, with a significantly more fun combat system, minus the mundane magic and everything else I talked about above, and with the preparation/world interaction elements being much more interactive and fun (as opposed to highly abstract skill check rolls). Yes, something like that.
More interactive and fun... minigames? That sounds like something you would say.
 

Ysaye

Arbiter
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
771
Location
Australia
I agree with the idea that we should go to large worlds that should be traversed - that is definitely something that Realms or Arkania did well that should be returned to the world of isometric RPGs.

I also agree that it would be good to see more orthogonal classes and less gaming "doubling up" - in general I think what I would like to see something more like (titles can change depending on the setting):

(1) "Defender" - stock standard hand to hand fighter, can develop high skill with weapons and armor
(2) "Hunter" - tracking, trap setting, long range fighting but weak in close range
(3) "Smith" - weapon equipment builder, restorer and enhancer, strong but no actual skill with weapons
(4) "Rogue" - Bluffs, diplomacy, disguises, pick pockets, somewhat weak in combat
(5) "Herbalist" - a healer, but relies on having enough herbs and equipment and healing happens out of combat, can also create poison for weapons, but very weak in combat
(5) "Sage" - Identify, interpret language / writing, mapping, knowledge areas, use special "magic" devices, very weak in combat but does have a meta-skill trait (which allows picking up non combat skills from other classes slowly).

Also agree about the plots / motivation - plots should move away from "save the world or yourself", but maybe more (back) to challenges/labours set by monarch, lords, priests/priestesses and/or others (perhaps giving completely contradictory objectives but that cumulate in a similar action for the player). Eg. a quest to get a two neighbouring countries to submit to the rule of your monarch (through any means possible) would be a very basic plot but from which a lot of things can branch off to provide the C&C that people always whinge about not getting. The intro with the monarch telling you your quest could also be quite ambiguous, even designed to set the player either up to not trust that character from the beginning, or to believe that your monarch is benevolent only to find out later that they are not quite as nice as one thinks.

I have no issue with food and water, weapon endurance etc. and stuff that "simulates" real life but it has to be done carefully and add to the game as others have said above.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
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Joined
Oct 5, 2010
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14,118
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New Vegas
- For maps, I would prefer BG1's contiguous adjacent maps to the hub based structure of BG2, or the point of interest structure of NWN2/Kangmaker. But ideally make them even larger, say each map is 4 times the size of BG1's maps, so you can travel around it for a while, seeing different things. And the next map will continue with the same terrain as the previous one, until you see it change. But unlike BG1, a lot more interaction possible with the world. Have rope and climber? Climb that mountain. Or descend into well. Cut down tree to create a makeshift bridge. Maybe if you have a skilled carpenter in the party, put up a palisade quickly for your camp in a dangerous area, to help with defense. Hunt animals for meat (using stealth), then cook it and eat it to survive. Get water from streams. Cut branches into arrows. Climb a tall tree near a camp to get more time to respond to night attacks. If have the skills, maybe cut down wood and build a boat to sail downstream quicker. And a ton of other things.

For as shitty as the games in general are I really like the approach to "open world" that Bioware used for Dragon Age Inquisition and Mass Effect Andromeda. Segmented into very different looking regions, but still large and open enough to feel like you can really explore and fart about. The problem with those games of course is that those regions are just pretty emptiness, there's nothing to do in them except for checking off quest markers and combat. I'd love to see the Baldur's Gate/Pillars of Eternity style with the bigger areas and more exploratory feel of these 3D games, but the issue is I'm not sure I trust any modern developer to fill them with something interesting to do.
 

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