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Eternity Did the PoE series fail commercially because it didn't use the D&D ruleset or was it something else?

MRY

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Kyl Von Kull I feel like that chart's assumption that every copy would sell for $45 is absurd and makes it hard to figure out the actual number of copies sold, which is too bad, because if the chart were accurate, it would mean AOD had outsold POE2. :)
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Well, bg2 changed the region in theory - but in practice Amn did not seem particularly different from BG.
Yes, totally agree, I was wondering if I should mention exactly this caveat.

There were at least a few people who were bothered by BG2's change of style (I love returning to this post): https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...gate-series-thread.80753/page-47#post-3726295

I do not remember the exact date (around 2004?) when my sister told me that her friend has Baldur's Gate II and I was shocked, beacuse I did not know that there was a sequel. I could not wait to play it and wanted to know more about it. She only told me that he did not like it as much as the first one, but I thought that it is impossible, a sequel to such a game cannot be bad. Later I got my own copy of BG2 and was really nervous when launching it for the first time, I wanted it to be such a great game as the first one, if not better.

The menu itself caught me by surprise, it had a very different feel to it. It was not a medieval fantasy of the frist game that I loved so much. It was weird and together with the music had a creepy atmoshpere. The art style was not my thing, but I had to give the game a chance, the menu cannot destroy the game for me. I created the character and I have found that I did not like how the weapons categories were split up to individual weapons. The cutscene with Irenicus played out and my thought was "Oh, in the first game the bad guy was a fighter, now it's time for a mage, I do not like mages.".

It actually was not the fact that Irenicus was a mage that took me back, but the fact that I already knew who the villain was. the magic of discovery suddenly disappeared. Then Imoen joined me and I thought that her portrait was terrible and ugly as the rest of those from BG2, why so many piercings and stuff in their hair? Even Keldorn's armor looked like a metal frisbee got stuck in his neck. I was getting more and move convinced that the artstyle was just ugly for me. It did not have the simplicity and clarity of the first game. The plate mail icon from BG2 will always be a turtle shell in my eyes and those silly paperdolls, just plain awful.

Anyhow I did not give up I was exploring the Irenicus's dungeon and I thought that it was not what I exactly imagined sequel to Baldur's Gate look like. I felt that I was playing a mix between a medieval fantasy with sci-fi with weird tubes and clones. The character animations were laughable as well, especially the streching and 2-handed sword knees-to-the-ground swing. I was in denial at first, I could not believe that this was how Baldur's Gate II looked. After many annoying parts I finally was able to exit the dungeon and got what I thought was just a middle finger from the game. Not the fact tha Irenicus took Imoen, or that I could not cast spells in the city, not even annoynig constant screaming from Minsc. It was the city itself. It was just plain ugly and illogical. I thought that the promenade is the worst looking location I have ever seen in a video game. Am I somewhere in Saudi Arabia? Where is the medieval city of Baldur's Gate?

I still gave the game a chance thinking it should get better later on, it is still a Baldur's Gate game. I do not like the games that start you off inside the big city, immediately I get lost and discouraged (Neverwinter Nights still not finished to this day). One thing that I really disliked about Athkatla is that how fake it feels. Almost every building is connect to some kind of quest. This is not a city, it is a quest-web and I felt like people were almost running at me and slaming their quests into my face. Talk about freedom. My first playthrough ended on the Graveyard District, where I saw a giant mural of a Pharaoh on the floor. This was too much for me, the scenery and atmosphere of the game was just not my thing and I did not care for Irenicus and Imoen, so I had no reason to continue.
I find myself disagreeing with his individual points, but my feelings about some of Deadfire's changes were exactly the same, word for word.
 

glass blackbird

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There were at least a few people who were bothered by BG2's change of style (I love returning to this post): https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...gate-series-thread.80753/page-47#post-3726295

I do not remember the exact date (around 2004?) when my sister told me that her friend has Baldur's Gate II and I was shocked, beacuse I did not know that there was a sequel. I could not wait to play it and wanted to know more about it. She only told me that he did not like it as much as the first one, but I thought that it is impossible, a sequel to such a game cannot be bad. Later I got my own copy of BG2 and was really nervous when launching it for the first time, I wanted it to be such a great game as the first one, if not better.

The menu itself caught me by surprise, it had a very different feel to it. It was not a medieval fantasy of the frist game that I loved so much. It was weird and together with the music had a creepy atmoshpere. The art style was not my thing, but I had to give the game a chance, the menu cannot destroy the game for me. I created the character and I have found that I did not like how the weapons categories were split up to individual weapons. The cutscene with Irenicus played out and my thought was "Oh, in the first game the bad guy was a fighter, now it's time for a mage, I do not like mages.".

It actually was not the fact that Irenicus was a mage that took me back, but the fact that I already knew who the villain was. the magic of discovery suddenly disappeared. Then Imoen joined me and I thought that her portrait was terrible and ugly as the rest of those from BG2, why so many piercings and stuff in their hair? Even Keldorn's armor looked like a metal frisbee got stuck in his neck. I was getting more and move convinced that the artstyle was just ugly for me. It did not have the simplicity and clarity of the first game. The plate mail icon from BG2 will always be a turtle shell in my eyes and those silly paperdolls, just plain awful.

Anyhow I did not give up I was exploring the Irenicus's dungeon and I thought that it was not what I exactly imagined sequel to Baldur's Gate look like. I felt that I was playing a mix between a medieval fantasy with sci-fi with weird tubes and clones. The character animations were laughable as well, especially the streching and 2-handed sword knees-to-the-ground swing. I was in denial at first, I could not believe that this was how Baldur's Gate II looked. After many annoying parts I finally was able to exit the dungeon and got what I thought was just a middle finger from the game. Not the fact tha Irenicus took Imoen, or that I could not cast spells in the city, not even annoynig constant screaming from Minsc. It was the city itself. It was just plain ugly and illogical. I thought that the promenade is the worst looking location I have ever seen in a video game. Am I somewhere in Saudi Arabia? Where is the medieval city of Baldur's Gate?

I still gave the game a chance thinking it should get better later on, it is still a Baldur's Gate game. I do not like the games that start you off inside the big city, immediately I get lost and discouraged (Neverwinter Nights still not finished to this day). One thing that I really disliked about Athkatla is that how fake it feels. Almost every building is connect to some kind of quest. This is not a city, it is a quest-web and I felt like people were almost running at me and slaming their quests into my face. Talk about freedom. My first playthrough ended on the Graveyard District, where I saw a giant mural of a Pharaoh on the floor. This was too much for me, the scenery and atmosphere of the game was just not my thing and I did not care for Irenicus and Imoen, so I had no reason to continue.


I like this guy's implication that the main problem with Neverwinter Nights is that Neverwinter is in it
 

Artyoan

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Messages
631
Pirates and sailing may be 'exotic' but its also gimmicky. Building an entire game around it is not wise for a sequel to a game that didn't feature it. You start on the boat, already alienated from the previous setting. They could have started the game in Caed Nua for a chapter and then transitioned to a new region. This would at least ground the new game's setting into the original game. That's more palatable. But having a variety of settings would be ideal.

The game felt like it had a clean break from its predecessor and yet you imported your character and choices as well as met returning characters that inexplicably had very different personalities. There are few times I've ever been as off-put by the opening of a sequel as PoE2. Immersion into a setting is key for me, and in a sequel that requires consistency with the original game. Throw in the new constant attempts at humor and the entire game ends up like the return of Eder, a lighthearted, soulless imposter. I'd compare it to a movie that replaces the lead actors with a self-aware, hastily written script.
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
There were at least a few people who were bothered by BG2's change of style (I love returning to this post): https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...gate-series-thread.80753/page-47#post-3726295

I do not remember the exact date (around 2004?) when my sister told me that her friend has Baldur's Gate II and I was shocked, beacuse I did not know that there was a sequel. I could not wait to play it and wanted to know more about it. She only told me that he did not like it as much as the first one, but I thought that it is impossible, a sequel to such a game cannot be bad. Later I got my own copy of BG2 and was really nervous when launching it for the first time, I wanted it to be such a great game as the first one, if not better.

The menu itself caught me by surprise, it had a very different feel to it. It was not a medieval fantasy of the frist game that I loved so much. It was weird and together with the music had a creepy atmoshpere. The art style was not my thing, but I had to give the game a chance, the menu cannot destroy the game for me. I created the character and I have found that I did not like how the weapons categories were split up to individual weapons. The cutscene with Irenicus played out and my thought was "Oh, in the first game the bad guy was a fighter, now it's time for a mage, I do not like mages.".

It actually was not the fact that Irenicus was a mage that took me back, but the fact that I already knew who the villain was. the magic of discovery suddenly disappeared. Then Imoen joined me and I thought that her portrait was terrible and ugly as the rest of those from BG2, why so many piercings and stuff in their hair? Even Keldorn's armor looked like a metal frisbee got stuck in his neck. I was getting more and move convinced that the artstyle was just ugly for me. It did not have the simplicity and clarity of the first game. The plate mail icon from BG2 will always be a turtle shell in my eyes and those silly paperdolls, just plain awful.

Anyhow I did not give up I was exploring the Irenicus's dungeon and I thought that it was not what I exactly imagined sequel to Baldur's Gate look like. I felt that I was playing a mix between a medieval fantasy with sci-fi with weird tubes and clones. The character animations were laughable as well, especially the streching and 2-handed sword knees-to-the-ground swing. I was in denial at first, I could not believe that this was how Baldur's Gate II looked. After many annoying parts I finally was able to exit the dungeon and got what I thought was just a middle finger from the game. Not the fact tha Irenicus took Imoen, or that I could not cast spells in the city, not even annoynig constant screaming from Minsc. It was the city itself. It was just plain ugly and illogical. I thought that the promenade is the worst looking location I have ever seen in a video game. Am I somewhere in Saudi Arabia? Where is the medieval city of Baldur's Gate?

I still gave the game a chance thinking it should get better later on, it is still a Baldur's Gate game. I do not like the games that start you off inside the big city, immediately I get lost and discouraged (Neverwinter Nights still not finished to this day). One thing that I really disliked about Athkatla is that how fake it feels. Almost every building is connect to some kind of quest. This is not a city, it is a quest-web and I felt like people were almost running at me and slaming their quests into my face. Talk about freedom. My first playthrough ended on the Graveyard District, where I saw a giant mural of a Pharaoh on the floor. This was too much for me, the scenery and atmosphere of the game was just not my thing and I did not care for Irenicus and Imoen, so I had no reason to continue.

I didn't like PST when it came out. I was still perplexed as to why there wasn't as much exploration and items as there was in BG. I finished it in less than 40 hours, and felt like I got robbed. Then I played it again and a whole new plane (yes, I went there) opened up for me in RPG gaming (yes, I did that). I tried the same tactic with POE twice, and even the second time round it was like a straight guy being told: "If you just lube up the horse cock and jump on it from a height - it'll fit just fine". So I chose not to do that; and I'm pretty set in my ways that wherever that G-spot of gaming is (in POE) that Codexians keeps referring to - I'm never gonna find it.
Just thought I'd share that. ;)
 
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Darth Canoli

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PoE failed because it was designed by a committee to be liked tolerated by everyone but loved by no one.

Fixed.

I didn't like PST when it came out. I was still perplexed as to why there wasn't as much exploration and items as there was in BG. I finished it in less than 40 hours, and felt like I got robbed. Then I played it again and a whole new plane (yes, I went there) opened up for me in RPG gaming (yes, I did that). I tried the same tactic with POE twice, and even the second time round it was like a straight guy being told: "If you just lube up the horse cock and jump on it from a height - it'll fit just fine". So I chose not to do that; and I'm pretty set in my ways that wherever that G-spot of gaming is that Codexians keeps referring to - I'm never gonna find it.
Just thought I'd share that.

Well, that G-spot of gaming, as you call it happened for some of us.

I understand why some people can't get into PST nowadays, i'm quite sure you had to be in the right mood to enjoy it fully even back in the days (i was when i played it)

Still, i was quite taken by a few games, referring that feeling as a g-spot of gaming is exaggeration but it happened (for PC games) for these :
- UFO
- HoMM II
- Isles of Terra
- Fantasy General
- Planescape Torment
- Wizardry 8
- Dungeon Keeper
- Fallout

Probably would have happened with Dark Sun if i had played it earlier (was good, still) and other games.

They all share the same quality, besides skilled and devoted devs, they were all groundbreaking(*). I think that's what it takes, amazing games are created by inspired geniuses (and inspiration can dry out eventually, sometimes sooner than later)

*Maybe HoMM II wasn't that groundbreaking but i played HoMM I after the second.
 
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Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
PoE failed because it was designed by a committee to be liked tolerated by everyone but loved by no one.

Fixed.

I didn't like PST when it came out. I was still perplexed as to why there wasn't as much exploration and items as there was in BG. I finished it in less than 40 hours, and felt like I got robbed. Then I played it again and a whole new plane (yes, I went there) opened up for me in RPG gaming (yes, I did that). I tried the same tactic with POE twice, and even the second time round it was like a straight guy being told: "If you just lube up the horse cock and jump on it from a height - it'll fit just fine". So I chose not to do that; and I'm pretty set in my ways that wherever that G-spot of gaming is that Codexians keeps referring to - I'm never gonna find it.
Just thought I'd share that.

Well, that G-spot of gaming, as you call it happened for some of us.

I understand why some people can't get into PST nowadays, i'm quite sure you had to be in the right mood to enjoy it fully even back in the days (i was when i played it)

Still, i was quite taken by a few games, referring that feeling as a g-spot of gaming is exaggeration but it happened (for PC games) for these :
- UFO
- HoMM II
- Isles of Terra
- Fantasy General
- Planescape Torment
- Wizardry 8
- Dungeon Keeper
- Fallout

Probably would have happened with Dark Sun if i had played it earlier (was good, still) and other games.

They all share the same quality, besides skilled and devoted devs, they were all groundbreaking(*). I think that's what it takes, amazing games are created by inspired geniuses (and inspiration can dry out eventually, sometimes sooner than later)

*Maybe HoMM II wasn't that groundbreaking but i played HoMM I after the second.

In the event that I worded that badly (or you're a bit retarded ;)) I just meant that comparing it to BG was a huge mistake, and when I played it again - I realized what a masterpiece it was, and how it stood on its own. :incline:
 

Darth Canoli

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In the event that I worded that badly (or you're a bit retarded ;)) I just meant that comparing it to BG was a huge mistake, and when I played it again - I realized what a masterpiece it was, and how it stood on its own.

I wasn't referring to your experience when i said i understood, more about Martyr 's one (and others whom recently played it for the first time), for example, he was in a good combat cRPG streak when he played PST and didn't enjoy it, i'm quite sure it's not the right way to get into PST.

I played PST after BG just like you and enjoyed PST scarce and unique items far more than BG ones ... If that makes me the (even slightly) retarded one, i'll take it. :roll:
 

Jeru

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or they just had no interest in playing a weird island tribal themed RPG
I really doubt that thought process of potential customers went like : "I really liked PoE1 and had lots of fun playing it but PoE2 is on islands and ships so I am not buying".
Yeah, they were totally thinking "I really liked this game, so I'm going to buy a game that's radically different from it"

This is one of the highest ranked 'most helpful' negative Deadfire reviews on Steam:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/kroopnik/recommended/560130/
- The pirate theme. Well I'm not a fan of pirates, but the main issue here is that it feels so disconnected from the previous game. The first PoE was grim, cold, grounded, celtic (for lack of a better word), mysterious, eerie. The second PoE feels cheesy, incoherent, clumsy, literal and overly inclusive (of ideas mind you, but the modern politics are there as well, and boy they didn't even try to conceal it).
Well this quote of a review literally states that main problem was change in tone, approach, incoherency, politicization and quality and not in change of setting per se. So where we're in disagreement?
 
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Carrion

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I haven't got around to playing PoE2 and I don't know if I will, but it's definitely not because of the pirate setting. On the contrary, it seems pretty fun and a fitting change of scenery from the first game. My lack of interest for the game is quite simply the result of the first PoE being so thoroughly lukewarm.

PoE was interesting because it was announced at the height of the Kickstarter craze and was developed by a company with actual credentials. Even if you weren't a huge fan of Obsidian, RTwP or the Infinity Engine games, there was a promise of some sort of a renaissance there. The game just never really clicked in any single area, at least at the time of its release. The combat was just way too easy, with trash mobs around every corner and very few interesting encounters after the first couple of hours. I wasn't a fan of the character system or the itemization, and the lack of challenge made it all quite dull anyway. The writing had issues and the story wasn't particularly captivating at any point. The setting was a bland Forgotten Realms knockoff with a couple of decent ideas that weren't developed nearly enough. Probably the game's biggest flaw, however, was that it spread itself way too thin, having little in the way of reactivity and way too much filler. I'm pretty sure PoE took me longer to finish than Baldur's Gate 2, and by a fair margin, which I don't think is a good thing. With their resources they probably should've gone for a tight 20-hour game with a dose of well-executed C&C, but they ended up going wide as an ocean and shallow as a puddle. In the end it just didn't feel like anything you did in the game world really mattered.

Great games are usually great because they do one or two things exceptionally well, even if they might have major flaws on other areas. PoE just wasn't particularly good at anything.

Apparently the game got notably better with patches and the expansions, but I never got around to playing those since I was already kind of burned out on PoE. There just wasn't any particular itch that the game would scratch, and I wasn't interested in spending another hundred or so hours finding out if a mediocre game had been made a bit less mediocre. When PoE2 came out, it was pretty much the same thing — I just wasn't interested in playing more PoE, even if he game seemed like an improvement over its predecessors. The Roxor review was probably the last nail in the coffin.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Kyl Von Kull I feel like that chart's assumption that every copy would sell for $45 is absurd and makes it hard to figure out the actual number of copies sold, which is too bad, because if the chart were accurate, it would mean AOD had outsold POE2. :)

Ha! I was hesitant to use something as misleading as the chart, but the guy kept insisting that we were merely speculating based on little to no meaningful information, even after I directed him to the Fig numbers. I figured the chart would mislead him to the truth. And who knows, given its much lower price (and higher quality), AoD may yet beat Deadfire, at least on units.
 

oscar

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A plot that effectively was super generic yet was oddly convinced it was doing something different and novel

Convoluted, over-tweaked, un-intuitive systems

A sequel that seemed to want to make a clean-break from the first game's woes but critically failed by making the plot (not very worthwhile or rewarding in the first place) entirely un-intelligible if you hadn't completed the first game. Compare to Fallout 2 where you can happily comprehend beginning to end without having touched the first or if you've completed the first you'll enjoy the little nods and winks to the first game.
 

Saxon1974

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Honestly for me I just found it bland and a bit boring. It was ok but the world just didn't feel interesting enough to keep me playing. Also didn't care for the new class/skill systems stuff.
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
A plot that effectively was super generic yet was oddly convinced it was doing something different and novel

Convoluted, over-tweaked, un-intuitive systems

A sequel that seemed to want to make a clean-break from the first game's woes but critically failed by making the plot (not very worthwhile or rewarding in the first place) entirely un-intelligible if you hadn't completed the first game. Compare to Fallout 2 where you can happily comprehend beginning to end without having touched the first or if you've completed the first you'll enjoy the little nods and winks to the first game.
I keep playing CDPR's not-very-wanted-child "Thronebreaker", and I keep thinking that compared to what could have been a browser game from CDPR, Obsidian look like a bunch of hobbyists from California who are tinkering with game engines and writing in their spare time from more important pursuits.
 

Mexi

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You faggots are still arguing this? PoE was highly successful. Stop speculating, faggots. It's going nowhere. Just making you look like bitter cucks because you faggots backed that piece of shit, con-artist Fargo. Wasteland was fucking garbage.
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I always prefer to think someone is drunk over him being retarded.

On second thought, maybe lack of talent is part of the reason, but there are differences in the mentality too. CDPR's mission and purpose is to produce quality games, and Obsidian's seems to be to support the owners' lifestyle until they can sell the company and retire and go fishing.
 

Lacrymas

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Given that we know (?) Feargus doesn't really involve himself in the development, it's not entirely his fault. He IS at fault of course, just not entirely. They could've squeezed a good game from what they did, but it required more intelligence.
 

Darth Canoli

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I liked Fantasy General (though I seem to recall giving up about 95% of the way through), but was it really groundbreaking? I thought it was mostly just a reskin of Panzer general (and maybe even a bit inferior).

I don't like the panzer series (never enjoyed that much war settings) but FG is one of my favorite games.

It might not seem that groundbreaking at first glance but that's all the bits put together making it so.
The music is amazing, the fantasy settings in a wargame, TB at that, the units you can advance and promote, all the heroes and the hidden ones ... All the tiny bits put together.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
I always prefer to think someone is drunk over him being retarded.

On second thought, maybe lack of talent is part of the reason, but there are differences in the mentality too. CDPR's mission and purpose is to produce quality games, and Obsidian's seems to be to support the owners' lifestyle until they can sell the company and retire and go fishing.
It might simply be because Obsidian has employees that don't work well as a team. If you have large portions of your development team publicly rebuking your management for honk points then I can only imagine what's happening behind the scenes.
 

Theldaran

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You cannot get one who hasn't played blah blah blah? Really? I thought the POE games were the IE games for people who disliked IE games. And they're prettier! Too bad the content is pretty sucky.

Anyway, the people who played the IE games originally are now... God knows where. So the majority of people who catered to POE were newbies who didn't know about IE games. Success, Obsidian...
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Given that we know (?) Feargus doesn't really involve himself in the development, it's not entirely his fault. He IS at fault of course, just not entirely. They could've squeezed a good game from what they did, but it required more intelligence.
The culture of "I don't give a shit" propagates from the top levels down to the individual worker. I speak from experience here.
 

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