Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[toro]

Really makes me wish I could swap my evasion for mercantile, I'd keep dodge for uncanny dodge, saved my ass more times than I can count. I also seem to be getting along much better with a precision built shotgun rather than a short barreled. How much perception do you need to sink into this thing to really make it viable?

PER 10. If it doesn't work at 10 then it doesn't work at 12 or 14 (probably).

I might join the Dodge/Evasion regret club. I've been running Dodge but not Evasion, and I too am starting to think those points should've gone toward mercantile or crafting.

Dodge is useless but Evasion is great.

Like I said before: If you don't take it then every ranged attack will hit you which overall means more Heal Hypos and combat anxiety

So, after killing out-of-the-way patrolling guard with traps in the Junkyard while completely cloaked during the entire time, all Black Eel Thugs have inexplicably gone hostile for seemingly no reason whatsoever. This time I didn't even use silenced weapons. Since there was no indication of this and the others in the area didn't react at all (being commoners or scrappers, who also didn't see or hear the killing anyway), I've lost over ~4 hours of playtime.

Game confirmed genuine shit. 3/10 do not buy.

https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zone_Control

If someone from the controlling faction detects your trap, you'll immediately get in trouble with the faction.
Assassination is nigh impossible. Everyone will turn hostile towards you.

You killed a Black Eel patrol in a controlled zone. Game works as intended.

 

[Stavrophore]

I would like to see some stealth overhaul, because right now you can only stealth again in combat when your enemies are incapacitated. Kinda bummer that you have to use flashbangs constantly. Its hard to play a hit and run character without these.

 

[Alphard]

I think i should restart. I blew all my initial credit on potions, not buying any armor
Now every path i take there are 2-3 rathounds waiting for me at the entrance, and i cannot survive more than 1 at once

 

[Tygrende]

The fundamental flaw of Dodge and Evasion is that the player must contend with many enemies, alone.

When used by NPCs, Dodge and Evasion are fairly powerful. Every missed attack is a significant setback for a player running just about any build, especially during RNG clusters (i.e., bad luck).

When used by the player, Dodge and Evasion are a massive skill and feat investment, yet work best when they don't have to be used at all. Fewer enemy attacks may land overall, but every one that does is significant, especially during RNG clusters. This is why it's generally preferable to launch overwhelming, well-planned ambushes and disregard Dodge and Evasion entirely.

There's another flaw with dodge/evasion you're not seeing, and it's probably my biggest issue with it. It doesn't work when you need protection the most.

Your dodge and evasion drop to 0 when immobilized or stunned/incaped, so when you're a sitting duck that can't do anything but tank all damage coming its way. There's even a debuff, off-balance, that drops both to 0. Your dodge and evasion also become much less useful against enemies with high weapon skill, which are almost always enemies that you especially don't want to get hit by. Carnifex for example barely cares about your dodge, even if it is very high. It does nothing against psi users other than evasion reducing damage from AoE metathermics, which is the least dangerous of them all and resisted by shields anyways, won't do you any good when hit with neural overloads or when you are chased by doppelgangers.

The Uncanny Dodge is awesome though, because it's reliable. Evasion can be nice boost to your shield's longevity, you can get it ridiculously high with Evasive Maneuvers if you have tons of MPs but nowhere to run. So while I wouldn't invest heavily into either, I would invest just enough to get their feats if I had the stats for them and feats to spare.

 

[toro]

Your dodge and evasion drop to 0 when immobilized or stunned/incaped, so when you're a sitting duck that can't do anything but tank all damage coming its way.

But this sounds right. You are incapacitated therefore you shouldn't be able to defend.

 

[fantadomat]

Sooo how do you get max quality items in this game? I believe that it is 160 max but i have never seen more than 130 maybe.

 

[Stavrophore]

Sooo how do you get max quality items in this game? I believe that it is 160 max but i have never seen more than 130 maybe.

You scum the vendors. You can use speedhack for that. But you already know about that.

 

[Tygrende]

But this sounds right. You are incapacitated therefore you shouldn't be able to defend.

Yes, it is logical and I wouldn't want it to be the other way, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes your protection go away when you need protection the most.

 

[fantadomat]

Sooo how do you get max quality items in this game? I believe that it is 160 max but i have never seen more than 130 maybe.

You scum the vendors. You can use speedhack for that. But you already know about that.

Any particular vendors that have a higher chance for spawning good mechanical shit??? Also do people use lazer weapons???

 

[Sykar]

Please read this. It's how you determine whether you're allowed to kill faction members in the game. But it boils down to "only do it in an uncontrolled zone".

Doesn't matter... none of this matters...

Try to kill Mordre with super stealth uber tactics in the uncontrolled zone of the water caverns... SGS will still be hostile to you a dozen map screens over.

You just have to accept that this is one of the mechanics where there's no consistency and you need to tread lightly.

Why is there no consistency? There is a guard right at the entrance to the Mushroom Cove, chances are that they can easily get behind who did it even if you did it stealthily. You could argue that it is arbitrary or draconic, but inconsistent, when it is the same in every zone? Hardly.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Please read this. It's how you determine whether you're allowed to kill faction members in the game. But it boils down to "only do it in an uncontrolled zone".

Doesn't matter... none of this matters...

Try to kill Mordre with super stealth uber tactics in the uncontrolled zone of the water caverns... SGS will still be hostile to you a dozen map screens over.

You just have to accept that this is one of the mechanics where there's no consistency and you need to tread lightly.

Why is there no consistency? There is a guard right at the entrance to the Mushroom Cove, chances are that they can easily get behind who did it even if you did it stealthily. You could argue that it is arbitrary or draconic, but inconsistent, when it is the same in every zone? Hardly.

The problem with killing Mordre is that someone said that area is uncontrolled. I haven't checked whether that is the case, but if it is, I'll say that the game should follow its own rules.

But this sounds right. You are incapacitated therefore you shouldn't be able to defend.

Yes, it is logical and I wouldn't want it to be the other way, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes your protection go away when you need protection the most.

There could be a feat where effects that would normally reduce your Dodge/Evasion to 0 like Off-balance reduced your evasion and dodge to 50% of their effective value instead.

 

[epeli]

Please read this. It's how you determine whether you're allowed to kill faction members in the game. But it boils down to "only do it in an uncontrolled zone".

Doesn't matter... none of this matters...

Try to kill Mordre with super stealth uber tactics in the uncontrolled zone of the water caverns... SGS will still be hostile to you a dozen map screens over.

You just have to accept that this is one of the mechanics where there's no consistency and you need to tread lightly.

Keep in mind that zone control mainly dictates what you can do with <blink><marquee><payattentiontothis>traps</payattentiontothis></marquee></blink> like it says on the in-game Zone Control tooltips and in the wiki. Otherwise hostilities will propagate within the faction, unless there is some other special mechanism like Leave No Witnesses in play.

 

[Blaine]

There's another flaw with dodge/evasion you're not seeing, and it's probably my biggest issue with it. It doesn't work when you need protection the most.

Nah, I mentioned that a bunch of pages ago, and that's why heavy armor is superior. You tend to receive damage in manageable chunks (often versus a higher health pool), rather than in big spikes, and the damage mitigation of armor keeps working pretty much all of the time.

One idea to improve Dodge and Evasion would be non-feat abilities learned from tutor NPCs, just like psi skills or quest-granted feats. Call it acrobatics training. These abilities would be used tactically to make Dodge and Evasion much more reliable than they normally are when passive, but for very limited periods of time. Some of the existing feats for Dodge would be rolled into these non-feat abilities. Enemies could use them too, of course.

Another possibility might be an accuracy bonus for characters with high Dodge and/or Evasion scores versus other characters with high Dodge and/or Evasion scores. This would substantially buff Dodge- and Evasion-based builds compared to the all-powerful tin can AR grenadiers, for whom there would be no change. Enemies would enjoy the same benefit, of course, but could be dispatched more quickly, increasing overall survivability.

 

[Luckmann]

• It's irrelevant why I killed him, because the point is that I did so 100% stealthily, using the tools the game actually supplies you with - tools one might make the mistake of thinking that you're supposed to use, and that the usage is intended to make sense.
• I was clearing a path to break into a room, a room in which there was a hostile commoner that could be killed secretly just fine, without aggroing any of the other commoners.
• These gangers aren't "random dudes?!", they're violent degenerates and there's no reason to cry that one of them bit it, and it's not some unreasonable idea to play a character that tries to take out as many of them as possible without upsetting things.

Bethesda unironically has better stealth/kill mechanics than this, which is as sad as it is pathetic.

I don't even know whats more stupid: calling Bethesda stealth system as superrior or killing someone in city, where shitload people can notice connection between foreign bastard and death of guard in peaceful place.

Haha, yeah, stupid me for not considering the psychic guards making ethereal sherlockian connections through in a populated area of transients, tsk tsk tsk.

And it's not my fault that the stealth/kill mechanics conjured by fucking Bethesda is objectively better and make more sense than the ones in Underrail. As much as I hate Oblivion/FO3/Skyrim/FO4, it doesn't mean that I can't recognize when something manages to be even worse in some regard.

tantrum-throwing

No tantrums have been thrown, get over yourself and get that dick out of your mouth.

Exceptions typically exist in controlled zones only when killing one or more NPCs is a potential option during a quest, and these tend to be partially scripted.

The fact that there appear to be random exceptions to the rules just makes the whole thing so much worse. Just prior to running into this trash for the second time (I had assumed that the previous situation, in an area where it explicitly was not supposed to be an issue, was a fluke), I had killed no less than two people in the same area of Junkyard, without issue.

Woah, big fucking surprise that I assumed that if I can kill a hostile commoner and random gangbanger #5 (who was carrying someone's knife, presumably part of a quest) without everyone becoming psionically aware of it, I can shiv guardsman #2 in a back alley, too, without someone on another map going STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM over it.

However, it's very difficult to strike a perfect balance between the two extremes of "can't kill any non-hostile" and "can kill any non-hostile with impunity."

Not that hard. Killing enemies that move around in areas with few other potential hostiles is pretty easy, sure, but killing static targets in open environments isn't, unless there's mechanics introduced later that'd allow it. It's not like you can just slip them 20 Jet and laugh as they overdose.

HURR DURR DON'T CRITICIZE THIS GAYM WHY NOT JUST GO PLAY DRAGON QUEER XD HA HA IF YOU DONT FELLATE U H8!

Kill yourself, Fanto.

 

[Tygrende]

Haha, yeah, stupid me for not considering the psychic guards making ethereal sherlockian connections through in a populated area of transients, tsk tsk tsk.

Oh no! A Black Eel guard was found dead caught in a bear trap! Who could have possibly killed him? Was it:

1. One of the beggars that probably couldn't afford a bear trap even if he wanted to
2. Another Black Eel
3. That new dude in the town who has been seen killing commoners with bear traps lately
4. Kareem

How will we ever find out?!

 

[fantadomat]

Kill yourself, Fanto.

Buahahaha,don't be that butthurt mate . If you don't like the game,then don't post here mate,and leave us to it.

Spoiler

 

[Luckmann]

Haha, yeah, stupid me for not considering the psychic guards making ethereal sherlockian connections through in a populated area of transients, tsk tsk tsk.

Oh no! A Black Eel guard was found dead caught in a bear trap! Who could have possibly killed him? Was it:

1. One of the beggars that probably couldn't afford a bear trap even if he wanted to
2. Another Black Eel
3. That new dude in the town who has been seen killing commoners with bear traps lately
4. Kareem

How will we ever find out?!

The entire place is implied to be full of transients, but my money would still be on Kareem. Also

Spoiler

Nobody found the guard, and the hostile commoner was killed with a taser and 5mm pistol.

Kill yourself, Fanto.

Buahahaha,don't be that butthurt mate . If you don't like the game,then don't post here mate,and leave us to it.

Spoiler

I'm getting back on track by vigorous cheating. I'm not going anywhere, I'm going to shit on all the shit just as always.

 

[fantadomat]

I'm getting back on track by vigorous cheating. I'm not going anywhere, I'm going to shit on all the shit just as always.

Buahahahaha,every thread needs its own retarded contrast,salutations and congratulations .

 

[Daedalos]

how the FUCK do you get into nexus of technology? theres a gate thats closed with electronic panel from the other side. and every other path is blocked by shit. and i dont have 10 agility to jump over cliffs.. .!

not to mention the locusts are fucking awful to play against

 

[fantadomat]

how the FUCK do you get into nexus of technology? theres a gate thats closed with electronic panel from the other side. and every other path is blocked by shit. and i dont have 10 agility to jump over cliffs.. .!

not to mention the locusts are fucking awful to play against

You have to go trough the caves on the right,they loop around and end up behind the gate.

 

[Daedalos]

how the FUCK do you get into nexus of technology? theres a gate thats closed with electronic panel from the other side. and every other path is blocked by shit. and i dont have 10 agility to jump over cliffs.. .!

not to mention the locusts are fucking awful to play against

You have to go trough the caves on the right,they loop around and end up behind the gate.

The basalt caves? or what? they are filled with shit

 

[Pope Amole II]

Since there's talk about dodge & evasion, the systematic problems with them are:

1. It's very difficult to judge how well do they work and whether will they work. It's tied to the enemy's weapon skill and not even Wiki contains that. So, unless you're one of the authors, you're forced to guess. Likewise, as there's no roll, you can't really be sure if it's your skills that suck or if it's just an unlucky streak of rolls.

2. While there are plenty of Evasion & Dodge bonuses, they scale badly. You want these stats to be twice as high as your enemies offense. So it's one thing when you need 100 vs 50 (45 from siphoner are amazing right here) and another when you need 300 vs 150 (45 from siphoner are less amazing right here).

3. Agility is underwhelming. It's initiative points became overshadowed by many other sources of initiative that were slowly added into the game. Same with the movement speed. It's only really strong feat is Blitz and even that is somewhat overhyped. That also became weaker with the addition of Temporal into game (so now instead of 90 vs 70 you have 110 vs 90 - that's not as good due to scaling).

4. Evasion is still sorta ok because, in addition to it, there will be darkness & distance bonuses at play. So it's easy to take their to-hit chance down to acceptable level. And there's anti-AoE component. Dodge royally sucks, however, because melee has nothing like that and so you have to rely on a crutch of Uncanny Dodge. Yeah, that's a literal crutch to salvage that skill somehow.

5. The addition of Temporal and better Yell means that even through all this Evasion & Dodge builds may be played. However, it's rather narrow and it's way too big of an investment for a return that isn't even that amazing.

 

[Blaine]

Once again, Luckmann has a point hidden somewhere among the entertaining tantrum.

The player character is the only new guy in town! Of course the guards will know it's him!

Right, but this is a fairly typical RPG in that settlements generally show only a relative handful of locations and a few dozen NPCs to the player. There are also relatively few fellow travelers. Even Core City is about the size of what would be a wide spot in the road in the real world.

I'm not appealing to realism here, but merely pointing out the unspoken implication typical to RPGs that there are more buildings and inhabitants than can actually be seen or visited by the player. In fairness, this is less true of Underrail since almost everything is clearly bordered by cave walls or water, but it's an implication that persists regardless of which RPG one happens to be playing.

 

[Elephantman]

So, I am fighting these dudes and by chance explode the convenient barrels that I overlooked and suddenly DEJAVU, this happend before. I played this before! But I cannot remember the Core apartment and pixelhunt. I remember the mined warehouse though. Weird. So I check online and its Expedition content in base game!
Spaced out, eh?
True fucking story too. I am not even sipping on mushroom brew today.

Spoiler

The Dude can open a mean gun shop in his cave now, after we played through Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

 

[Elephantman]

Once again, Luckmann has a point hidden somewhere

No, he doesnt. Games had rules since the beginning of time.
He's got shown up for being too dumb to read and has dug in to not admit latent retardation and lose face.
Now he is pressing the buttons in impotent rage.
Serves him right, losing hours of game time. And shows yet again that he is a fucking moron. Should have had multiple saves like someone with half a brian.