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My Fallout 3 impressions.

trais

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The discussion about if fallout 3 is a sequel to fallout 1/2 made my head hurt, so I've looked it up in my favorite dictionary:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sequel
n.
1. Something that follows; a continuation.
2. A literary, dramatic, or cinematic work whose narrative continues that of a preexisting work.
3. A result or consequence. See Synonyms at effect.

So in other words, sequel is a piece of work that continues the story of some other piece of work. It has nothing to do with perspective, gameplay, even title or protagonist. Aquanox is a sequel Archmedean Dynasty tho' the name ain't Archmedean Dynasty 2 and Aquanox 2 is a sequel to Aquanox even tho' the main character is completely different person.

I haven't played F3 and I can't tell if it continues or at least expands earlier Fallouts narrative, but name suggests it should. Just as "James Bond: Shark with lasers" movie should tell James Bond's story, not some other different special agent's. If it doesn't - then one has right to feel scammed.

OTOH game's quality should be judged by it's own merits and position that F3 sucks just because it's inferior to it's predecessors it's not a rational one. Again Aquanox comes as example - it's not as good as AD, in fact not even close, but it's still a fun game.
 

fizzelopeguss

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Balor said:
What are you arguing about, anyway?.

That no one has a fucking clue what fallout is, some people liked fallout 2, some hated it, some liked tactics, some hated it.

Fallout 3 is a more worthy sequel to fallout 1 and 2 than gothic 3 was to the originals, yet that POS is treated with kid gloves by VD.
 

BLOBERT

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The only thing so far that has really made it hard to swallow as a Fallout game is the treatment of the Brotherhood of Steel. I thought that their treatment in the previous fallouts was quite a bit better.

And then finding all blown to hell power armor nothing special and worthless.

Combat isn't bad, and although I am running out of ammo, I don't have enough to keep my favorite weapon shooting at every radscorpion. I am playing on hard.
 

Chefe

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Azrael the cat said:
Yes, to add to what appears to be the growing hive-mind consensus, I find it very difficult to criticise either points of view (out of the 'awful attempt at sequel' to 'decent Bethesda game, should have been what followed Morrowind'. That might be because I got married a year ago, and hence my wife has removed my testicles to make me less aggressive, kind of like when you raise a pet dog - don't tell the unmarried guys that happens, it will just frighten them. Alternatively, it might be because there are quite valid reasons why a rpg might like or hate this game.

Obviously if you can't get the 'it's supposed to be a FO sequel' out of your head, then the game will suck - bigtime. The reasons for that have been repeated many times in this thread - horrible dialogue, lack of TB-strategy, degeneration in companion-interaction etc (why companion interaction peaked in PS:T is beyond me. It doesn't strike me as something expensive to work on and advance - in fact, ways of advancing companion interaction, conversation, character development etc seems to be an ultra-cheap way of giving your game a competitive advantage).

But if you are one of the ones who CAN get the 'fallout' issue out of your head, then it is a good sign for TES and open-world games. Hand-placed dungeons and towns, multiple quest solutions, skill checks...it's like they buried Oblivion saying 'let's just pretend that PoS never existed' and continued on from Morrowind instead. I remember when it was first announced that they bought the FO licence - I had played Morrowind, never heard of Oblivion pre-hype and...I was happy they had it. I would have preferred Troika to have it, sure, but I enjoyed Morrowind and I was glad it went to Bethesda rather than Bioware. The reason for that? I felt Morrowind had a lot of potential hat was limited by over-ambition - that the next game Bethesda produced would have the scope and scale of Morrowind, but would be better in terms of character interaction, detail and so on. My main reason for liking Morrowind was that (and this will be a shock for those whose only TES experience was Oblivion) whilst Bioware games have a one-size-fits-all difficulty (not the combat, but the puzzles/storyline), Morrowind balanced a 'for-retards' linear main quest, with some ways that you could sidestep parts of the quest if you were hated by too many groups or if you killed the wrong people (i.e. the 'kill Vivec' method to skip to the latter stages of the main quest), and lots of love given to some non-main-quest-lines. Take the implementation of vampire mechanics. If you let yourself become a vampire, you could be pretty screwed. No one but mages will talk to you, guards attack you, and you've got no clan and no quests. If you've done some research in the libraries beforehand - nothing to point you there, btw, just up to you if you've been reading the books lying around - you could find where your clan nhas their base. Go to the wrong clan and they'll attack you, the right one will give you some more quests and a shelter. Once you're bored of that limited selection of quests, or if you want to continue the main plotline and don't want to take the 'kill Vivec' option, you can try to find a cure for vampirism. Again - not very retard friendly - the game tells you that it is incurable. But if you are reading the right series of books, they will mention a quest that can cure you...except that the details of the quest are only in one volume of those books and a damn rare volume at that. So (assuming that you aren't just using a walkthrough - if so then your loss) you have to go to the various major libraries in magician guilds and noble houses, sneak past the guards (or just blood-bath your way in) to find the book...before you can even start the quest to cure yourself. And the whole thing was done without any quest compass, without anything in your journal to mark 'this is a quest', without anything telling you to go find the books, or that the books are even out there, and once you get the book it only gives you very rough directions as to where the start of the quest chain can be found.

What a S******* Oblivion was after that!

From what I've seen, there is nothing in FO that tests the player's ingenuinty to a fraction of the extent that the vampire questline did in Morrowind. But at least it seems to be some form of return to the 'main-quest-for-dummies, other extra stuff for those who want a challenge' mantra of Morrowind. That doesn't make it a fallout game - but it is a style that I'd like to see more of, and I'm hoping that the success of FO3 causes Bethesda (and the industry) to at least raise their expectations of what the retard-console-masses can get their heads around, as well as perhaps the value of putting side-quests and flexible questlines for the rest of us. Wasn't that the original idea of side-quests anyway? So that you could add extra challenge for some gamers, whilst still allowing everyone to complete the main game?

I'm going to quote this just incase no one else does, because it's a great post.

Although I did enjoy Oblivion, and don't consider it a PoS, Morrowind was just so much more deep and immersive due to the rich history and lore that surrounded it. FO3 is a huge step forward for open world RPGs. Oblivion's main fault was that it tried to deviate back to Arena and Daggerfall instead of expanding on Morrowind. FO3 is a sequel to the Fallout world, but it is also a backwards bridge between Oblivion and Morrowind.

Already (playing on very hard, and not being a pack rat) I've run into challenges I could only have dreamed about in Oblivion. Right now my current character is in an underground subway station. She has two land mines, a grenade, and a chinese pistol with a half round of ammo. Both of her legs are crippled, so walking is a pain. My health is low and I only have some dirty water and mole rat meat for subsistence. There's a raider who has set up camp I'm trying to get by, and when I get out of the tunnel, there are several more raiders waiting up there to greet me. I haven't been able to win every fight, and I have had to escape from quite a few of them.

In the original Fallout, the only challenge I faced was determined after the first round. Either I would get my head blown off and would have to reload, or I would blow the other guys head off and have to save. In Morrowind, I faced some survival challenges, but potions were pretty cheap, restored a ton, food did almost nothing, and the enemies were pretty stupid on average. In Oblivion, I have tried to hell and back to gimp myself but challenge still remains slim. FO3 has taken the good parts of Oblivion and Morrowind, plus added in some of the deadly situations of the original Fallout. So while their newest game is not perfect (what game is? besides Jazz Jackrabbit 2), it is undoubtably fun, and were I still blinded by ignorant hatred I would join in the lynching that has gone on here.

You made a good point when you said there is a game for simpleminded folks here (the ones who save right before they blow up Megaton so they can do it over, and over, and over again), but there is also a game for RPGers who enjoy challenge and discovery.
 

Chefe

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Barrow_Bug said:
Wow Chefe. Looks like I might enjoy this game more than I thought.

Take it for what it is and judge it by your own standards. If your standard in women is Heidi Klum, then you're never going to be satisfied with anyone else. When it comes to Bethesda most people here, and at Iron Tower, and indeed most of the "hardcore" RPG community, suddenly decide to judge the company's latest game on some imaginary "super RPG" that exists and will ever only exist in their head. Faults that would be ignored in another project suddenly become glaring inconsistencies. I, of all people, am certainly not free of blame in this department.

It also greatly depends on your play style. If you approach every RPG like Diablo, then Fallout 3 will be horrible. If you approach it the same way you first approached the very first Fallout, then you will enjoy it. For me, it took me a while to re-realize that I play RPGs to play them, as opposed to something like Mega Man, which I play to complete. I recently rediscovered this, and have been enjoying things a helluva lot more. Even Arcanum! :D

You see, these people all talk about story and immersion and such, then they go on about not every skill being equally useful and combat being less perfect than the most recent FPS dominators (despite the fact that FO3 is not an FPS, it's an RPG, and so it will play like an RPG and not an FPS). What about sound? How about the old music played on Galaxy Radio being incredibly eerie? How about the subdued atmospheric sounds, being drowned out by Inon Zur's disgusting "composition"? How about the city layouts, which look like the ruins of real metropolises? Instead of moaning about a few characters not hitting every note, why not mention how there is an incredible amount of dialog and choices, that are all fully and well voice acted? Yes, some skill checks might not make sense in dialog, but then again, that same dialog could have four or five different checks in it! Your skill in explosives could save a town. Your skill in medicine could determine cause of death. The baseball bat you carried around could be given to a guy who needs to save his family. That surly outpost soldier could provide protection from raiders while you're injured. The radio DJ might just be a real person fighting for a real cause.

I never considered the original Fallout to be "epically serious" or full of "dark humor". It was a semi-realistic, semi-cartoony post apocalyptic game with some neat backstory. I never really was drawn into the characters or felt much moral pull in situations. I can say the exact same things about Fallout 3, except for the fact that I have felt some emotional tugs and a few characters, living and dead, have been enjoyable.

I'd really like to write a review for Fallout 1 with the same kind of cynicism that these yokels give Fallout 3. It would blow your fucking mind.
 

Monocause

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Chefe, I wouldn't call FO3 reception on Codex 'lynching'. From what I've seen, most people here agree that it's a decent game, they just have gripes with it being Fallout. Guess I fit into the same category, but it's understandable since it's an intellectual franchise in gaming that I like the most.
Comparison with other Beth games or other RPGs in general may be more fair. I'd say that it's much better than Oblivion in almost every aspect, more difficult to compare with Morrowind. Inconsistency and setting notions aside, I'm having more fun with Fallout right now than I had with unmodded Morrowind. On the other hand, I now have some great MW mods installed, like Galsiah's character development, passive wildlife and weapon/armor fixes, and it's definitely better than vanilla FO in terms of gameplay for me, even if more than half of gameplay still means fooling around in a world that's big for the sake of being big.
Probably, when the famous modders will step into FO, it has the potential of being much better than the majority of RPG's I've played. If, of course, toolset will allow to rework VATS and other significant gameplay issues. And, ffs, rewrite the dialogue! :D Most of it is gibberish, some is barely passable; it's one of the biggest joykillers for me.

Oh, and about the landscapes: I still find it fun to see a wooden door in the wastes, placed in exactly the same layout as in Morrowind and don't see a sign "Cave, Ashurnibibi" ;>
 

Twinfalls

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'Redguard' was a terrific, highly enjoyable little action adventure. Great atmosphere, some stat-checking, some dialogue trees. Had it been called 'TES 3', would that have made any fucking difference to its merits?
 

Barrow_Bug

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I have always played RPG's for 'teh imershun'. I'll be honest with you. I don't give a fuck about stats, or levelling up or how the intricacies of the system works. I want a world to enjoy and characters to "feel" for. I don't want to feel like a hero or any of that shit, I just want something that feels like I'm there. Admittingly you need a degree of quality when it comes to writing and conceptual deign, or you'll lose me. Whether or not it's Fallout doesn't bother me, I found some concepts in Fallout a little irksome. However I have a big boner for anything 'Art Deco' or 'Streamline Moderne'. The biggest challenge is whether or not you actually connect with the world in front of you. If it fails at that, it fails utterly.
 

Chefe

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Twinfalls said:
'Redguard' was a terrific, highly enjoyable little action adventure. Great atmosphere, some stat-checking, some dialogue trees. Had it been called 'TES 3', would that have made any fucking difference to its merits?

You are apparently not familiar with the "sanctity of naming" that is practiced among so many practitioners of gaming religion.
 

Monocause

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Twinfalls said:
'Redguard' was a terrific, highly enjoyable little action adventure. Great atmosphere, some stat-checking, some dialogue trees. Had it been called 'TES 3', would that have made any fucking difference to its merits?

Of course it would, albeit in a subjective, not objective way. I imagine that a lot of TES fans would be pissed off outright. They'd expect a sequel to Arena and Daggerfall, a continuation of principles of the previous TES games.
It's a similar thing with the Bond movies. There are a lot of people thrown back by the fact that Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace aren't Bond movies since a lot of running gags and things in plot like absurd hi-tech gadgets were dropped. And Bond himself stopped being a model Brit.
 

Twinfalls

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Monocause said:
Twinfalls said:
'Redguard' was a terrific, highly enjoyable little action adventure. Great atmosphere, some stat-checking, some dialogue trees. Had it been called 'TES 3', would that have made any fucking difference to its merits?

Of course it would, albeit in a subjective, not objective way. I imagine that a lot of TES fans would be pissed off outright. They'd expect a sequel to Arena and Daggerfall, a continuation of principles of the previous TES games.

This is like smacking one's head against a wall of facepalm. At what point were you still expecting FO3 to be a 'continuation of principles' of the previous instalments?
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Monocause said:
It's a similar thing with the Bond movies. There are a lot of people thrown back by the fact that Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace aren't Bond movies since a lot of running gags and things in plot like absurd hi-tech gadgets were dropped. And Bond himself stopped being a model Brit.
Oh, you should have seen the Bond fandom's reaction to the Bond of Black Dossier. Talk about raging butthurt.
 

Monocause

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Twinfalls said:
This is like smacking one's head against a wall of facepalm. At what point were you still expecting FO3 to be a 'continuation of principles' of the previous instalments?

This is like fucking an Alaskan governor. I expected worse from Bethesda, I expected better from a sequel to fallout.
I didn't expect Bethsoft to use iso-turnbased, or something like that. I expected them to get some better writers on board, for example. For a long time I expected a better combat system than VATS, one that would be a good imitation of TB. It isn't about following principles completely, it's about not straying from them too much.
I don't get your way of thinking - you shouldn't base your expectations only on things that are within the range of high probability. I still expect my country to be governed competently, even if it's nigh-on impossible considering the composition of the local parliament and the nature of democracy.

'Be happy with what you've got' mindset leads to being happy with eating shit because at least no-one is forcing you to suck cock during your meal. What's the point? You just adhere to lowering of the standards.
 

Twinfalls

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For the last time. It's a very good game. It is not a good Fallout game. It's not really a Fallout game at all.

Which of the above have you not been expecting?
 

Monocause

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Twinfalls said:
For the last time.

No, not the last, don't count on it. You don't even expect it to be the last time, do you?

Which of the above have you not been expecting?

You see, there are expectations, and there are predictions. Right now you're talking about predictions. I know that it was easy to predict that it would not be a fallout game, but that has nothing to do with the thing that I expected that Beth after purchasing the license would at least try to get on par with the writing standards in previous installments and some other things, mostly plot and setting related - which they *could* do to make Fallout using their vision of RPGs while keeping some parts of Fallout brand intact. It wasn't a sky-high expectation, it wouldn't be that hard to hire some competent writers and possibly get some hardcore fallout players for consultation.

Besides, my predictions were that the game would suck. Fortunately Beth proved them wrong, and judged by it's own merits it's a good game. Wouldn't call it 'very good' though, unless the modders hop in.

And, one last line - the post to which you reacted with facepalming was an answer to your redguard question. And I stand by that. If you make a *sequel* to a game or a movie and stray too much from it's predecessors, you'll be criticised. Even if you make a good game, you'll be criticised.
If Beth made a sequel to Oblivion, and made it iso/turn-based, and stayed inconsistent with the lore from previous games - think TES fans would be happy about it? They would buy the game and enjoy it or not depending on the game's merits - as codexers do now with FO3. But there would be criticism, probably a lot of it. If redguard would be TES3, it would be criticised because of the misleading naming; that's quite obvious.[/i]
 

Rhombus

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Chefe said:
What about sound? How about the old music...

I seriosly had a really fallout-y moment when I was running through the wasteland early in the game and the radio started playing "Maybe, you'll think of me..." Stopped running and walked and just enjoyed the atmosphere...
 

MetalCraze

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Twinfalls said:
It's a very good game.

No. Even if one will forget that it is somehow related to Fallout license it still feels like a deprived of colour Oblivion with shitty writing and poor C&C added. That makes a game seem less bad, but it doesn't make it "very good", even today.
 

SuicideBunny

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Twinfalls said:
For the last time. It's a very good game.
no, it isn't. it's ok with a strong tendency towards mediocrity and repetitiveness. the combat gets boring quickly, repairing requiring other damaged (can't repair something using a 100% item. lol) items of the same really narrow category is inane and makes it look pretty much like two worlds item combining feature, the little atmosphere they manage to build up is killed by moronic and really shallow dialogues nearly all of which incorporate large amounts of omission, meaning it's only a very small step up from purely topical dialogues, or stupid pop culture references shouted by mobs, the radio shows have nearly no content, becoming incredibly repetitive, while being mostly useless overall, and they seemingly ran out of money because car factories, power stations, military fort warhead storages, and a great deal of other buildings look exactly the same on the inside, all being big mostly empty and generic brown halls.

design wise there's also lots of stupid shit, like the battery backpack for gatling lasers, but you reloading the weapon with a small energy cell on the side, or the minigun being a near exact copy of the M134-A2 vulcan, with a very minor and stupid artistic change to the ammo backpack, which again is disconnected from the gun and serves no purpose, nearly every derelict car or motorcycle exploding after the tiniest impact, and lots of other tiny bits, not to mention that once again they exaggerated features, just like they did with oblivion.

it might be better than oblivion, but it's still fucking retarded, and neither a good post-apocalyptic game, nor a particularly good rpg.
 

Twinfalls

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SuicideBunny said:
(can't repair something using a 100% item. lol)

You wish to repair a damaged item with an identical item you have, which happens to be at 100%. So that you end up with a less than 100% item. The game won't let you do this.

And this is one of your reasons for why the game sucks.

SuicideBunny said:
fucking retarded
 

SuicideBunny

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Twinfalls said:
You wish to repair a damaged item with an identical item you have, which happens to be at 100%. So that you end up with a less than 100% item. The game won't let you do this.
you can repair items with similar ones, even though the choice isn't there most of the time, for example uniques using the regular versions, labcoats with some of the abundant and useless utility vault suits, 10mm smg using the 10mm pistol, grimy pre-war businesswear using dirty pre-war business wear, and so on.

yeah, i know, i'm retarded like that.

Twinfalls said:
And this is one of your reasons for why the game sucks.
not quite what i wrote:
SuicideBunny said:
it's ok with a strong tendency towards mediocrity and repetitiveness.
 

Mr. Teatime

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Enjoying reading this thread.

Anyway, I'll briefly voice support for the 'main quest for idiots, rest of the world treats gamers more intelligently' idea. I decided to start on the main quest past Megaton but kind of left feeling a little disappointed (the behemoth was cool though). Wasn't keen on meeting the Brotherhood and killing supermutants this early, either. Going back to exploring the wasteland today.
 

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