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Something that sometimes depresses me about CRPGs

Unwanted

Elephantman

Unwanted
Joined
Apr 8, 2019
Messages
253
So there I was, merrily building a party in Deadfire, just going by a casual look at the descriptions of things and the numbers, and then I take a gander at Nerd Commando's build guides, and I discover that as per fucking usual with CRPGs, when a proper nerd takes a closer look at the numbers, optimum builds are Frankenstein's monsters that bear no relationship whatsoever to any sort of RP rationale.

(e.g. some obscure Paladin/Cheesemonger hybrid turns out to be a better archer than any Ranger could ever be, that type of thing)

Why, God? Why? Why can't life just be simple? Why can't developers make it so that if you just follow your intuitions in relation to what's described, you end up with decent builds that do what they say on the tin? Is it that difficult? Apparently it is ...
First of all, fucking kill yourself you dumb fucking faggot! Srsly, H A N G Y O U R S E L F
And every gaylord that agrees with you too!

Second, Nerds builds are literally RP - he takes an RP idea and tries to make it workable, you dumb zit.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,103
Yeah, I am definitely not a fan of having to do massive meta-research to figure out how to build a certain character, and then realizing it's some horrible munchkin abomination. The autists love it, but I think you can do better, even in terms of just playing around with numbers. I would prefer a clear system that lets you craft the kind of character you want, in terms of just logically selecting the traits/stats/skills/characteristics that fit that mold.
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,511
Location
The Desert Wasteland
Yeah, I am definitely not a fan of having to do massive meta-research to figure out how to build a certain character, and then realizing it's some horrible munchkin abomination. The autists love it, but I think you can do better, even in terms of just playing around with numbers. I would prefer a clear system that lets you craft the kind of character you want, in terms of just logically selecting the traits/stats/skills/characteristics that fit that mold.

To be fair that's not really Owlcat's fault. If you're going to faithfully represent the Pathfinder ruleset in a digital game, then the build mechanics are going to be very complicated, and you don't get to change your major character decisions in PnP.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Yeah, I am definitely not a fan of having to do massive meta-research to figure out how to build a certain character, and then realizing it's some horrible munchkin abomination. The autists love it, but I think you can do better, even in terms of just playing around with numbers. I would prefer a clear system that lets you craft the kind of character you want, in terms of just logically selecting the traits/stats/skills/characteristics that fit that mold.

To be fair that's not really Owlcat's fault. If you're going to faithfully represent the Pathfinder ruleset in a digital game, then the build mechanics are going to be very complicated, and you don't get to change your major character decisions in PnP.
PF is a lot better about it than 3.5 is at least, and archetypes are fun.
Main reason for multiclassing in kangmaker is to abuse bugged stuff.
 

User0001

Savant
Joined
Jun 9, 2018
Messages
530
Location
Nangilima
Yeah, I am definitely not a fan of having to do massive meta-research to figure out how to build a certain character, and then realizing it's some horrible munchkin abomination. The autists love it, but I think you can do better, even in terms of just playing around with numbers. I would prefer a clear system that lets you craft the kind of character you want, in terms of just logically selecting the traits/stats/skills/characteristics that fit that mold.

To be fair that's not really Owlcat's fault. If you're going to faithfully represent the Pathfinder ruleset in a digital game, then the build mechanics are going to be very complicated, and you don't get to change your major character decisions in PnP.

The system itself is great for what it is. PF:K is good enough for the system it uses to be fun to play around with. Whatever owlcat does next has the potential to be what was lost due to implementing such thick system.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,437
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Yeah, I am definitely not a fan of having to do massive meta-research to figure out how to build a certain character, and then realizing it's some horrible munchkin abomination. The autists love it, but I think you can do better, even in terms of just playing around with numbers. I would prefer a clear system that lets you craft the kind of character you want, in terms of just logically selecting the traits/stats/skills/characteristics that fit that mold.

Yeah, that's what I would prefer. I wonder if it's just some weird thing with math (like, to do with scaling, multiplication vs. addition, etc.), where within a certain range the systems developers make do actually work as intuition would predict for the most part, but when you get outside that range then the numbers behave unpredictably (predictably from the point of view of maths ofc, just unpredictably from the point of view of intuition and simulation logic), and then munchkin options become available, so people just naturally fill in that possibility space.

It's a funny old thing though, and it happens with nearly every game of the RPG type.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
8,986
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
It's not like you have to complete game 1337 times to read the class descriptions and skim through skill trees to come up with a decent build

We're not talking here about decent builds.
Didn't you get the memo?
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
12,871
Location
Eastern block
Like I said in this thread, I prefer to stay in the 60-80 range (100 is pure munchkin).

Having fun comes from spontaneity. Too much metagaming definitely ruins the fun.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
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Strap Yourselves In
Like I said in this thread, I prefer to stay in the 60-80 range (100 is pure munchkin).

Having fun comes from spontaneity. Too much metagaming definitely ruins the fun.

heh, good thread!

Yeah, basically for me it's always been a case of, I like to investigate what the number crunchers and nerds know, so that I can squeeze the best out of whatever build I make, but I prefer to build RP-wise.

It's like, build mostly RP-wise, but use the knowledge that's available with an eye to getting the most out of your build that you can, while still keeping to the character.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
Designers are often caught up in the dilemma that power should come at a cost, and so munchkins should be rewarded for the time they spend figuring out the intricacies of a rule book. In the age of the internet, this is a rather silly and futile attitude towards game design, but the problem remains: how do you reward people for proper strategic thinking?

In my view, and also an aspect of my personal preference, character development should be the core element of an adaptive game world, not a separate system standing independently. That is to say, the key differentiating factors of a character's power should come from in game interactions, and be subject to chance. Perhaps you'd like to learn enough necromancy to enslave nations, but to do this, you must find and read the Necronomicon; and that's not easy, because you'd need to figure out how to overcome various challenges that are different from game to game. And you'd best be ready to fail those challenges and never obtain what you want.

This works better in an open world CRPG with no saves, however, than a story driven one, for which it is probably better to have a standardized system that works in harmony with the story. I rather like simple class mechanics, for this purpose - since the goal of a story driven game is to emphasize the narrative and the characters, the rules should serve this purpose and favor dramatic archetypes and tropes, making it easier to role play.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
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2,815
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inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
the worst is when they lock conversation/story options behind some arbitrary stat that does fuck all else for your character.

Yeah, I really want to put some points into the 'dialogue' stat so I can actually experience the story but I also want to be able to make it through the fucking tutorial dungeon without getting raped by ants
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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Joined
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Strap Yourselves In
the worst is when they lock conversation/story options behind some arbitrary stat that does fuck all else for your character.

Yeah, I really want to put some points into the 'dialogue' stat so I can actually experience the story but I also want to be able to make it through the fucking tutorial dungeon without getting raped by ants

lol, yeah, that sort of thing seems to just be a traditional baptism of fire in CRPGs. "Ah, going for a physically feeble, talkative Wizard are you? Muahahahah." :)
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
the worst is when they lock conversation/story options behind some arbitrary stat that does fuck all else for your character.

Yeah, I really want to put some points into the 'dialogue' stat so I can actually experience the story but I also want to be able to make it through the fucking tutorial dungeon without getting raped by ants
In d20-based CRPGs this makes cha-based classes too good imo. You don't really sacrifice anything.
 

Kitchen Utensil

Guest
So there I was, merrily building a party in Deadfire, just going by a casual look at the descriptions of things and the numbers, and then I take a gander at Nerd Commando's build guides, and I discover that as per fucking usual with CRPGs, when a proper nerd takes a closer look at the numbers, optimum builds are Frankenstein's monsters that bear no relationship whatsoever to any sort of RP rationale.

(e.g. some obscure Paladin/Cheesemonger hybrid turns out to be a better archer than any Ranger could ever be, that type of thing)

Why, God? Why? Why can't life just be simple? Why can't developers make it so that if you just follow your intuitions in relation to what's described, you end up with decent builds that do what they say on the tin? Is it that difficult? Apparently it is ...
First of all, fucking kill yourself you dumb fucking faggot! Srsly, H A N G Y O U R S E L F
And every gaylord that agrees with you too!

Second, Nerds builds are literally RP - he takes an RP idea and tries to make it workable, you dumb zit.

Why did this friendly gentleman get banned? I thought we're on the Codex and embrace such loveliness here?
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
If I can't be effective as a half nekkid dude with a big axe then I walk.

In games as well.
 

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